Question regarding Mormon views on God

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Thanks for your answer and I think it’s great to compare and contrast our faith traditions…I think it’s healthy to do this. I appreciate you doing this and we might not agree theologically…but we sure can be open to each other and agree to disagree on some issues…but respect each other. Thanks again and peace be with you.
 
:crutches:

I am bruised and battered but still here, and uninterested in participating in the politics of personal destruction.
dianaiad said:
I don’t think I missed it, cbelarski. I mentioned that we believe that Jesus had a spiritual body…that looked very much like the one He gained physically.
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I reserve the right to be wrong, but that isn’t too far off the orthodox position of Jesus’s nature before the Incarnation:

[BIBLEDRB]John 1:1-4[/BIBLEDRB]
 
dianaiad said:
Oh, come on, Cat Herder. The text between the colons that make this one appear is “bigyikes.”
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I would appreciate it if you would at least consider my explanation and the rules before demonizing me. Under said rules, I am allowed to question the policies and practices of the LDS Church (and you are supposed to assume that I do not intend a personal attack—how could I attack you if you haven’t even posted?), and I was hoping that an explanation as to whether there is a conflict between the BoM and D&C on this issue might be presented. But seeing as none is forthcoming, I will apologize for any offense and take my leave.

:crutches:
 
dianaiad said:
I don’t think I missed it, cbelarski. I mentioned that we believe that Jesus had a spiritual body…that looked very much like the one He gained physically.
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OK, here is my question again. If LDS doctrine is that Jesus was the Lord of the Old Testament, how can old testament references to the Lord’s “body parts” that you gave me be used as evidence that Heavenly Father has a human body? That is the question I am asking that I don’t think was answered…unless I missed it in between all the other crud that this post created. I think you just keep saying that Jesus had a spiritual body in heaven before coming to earth (which I understand to be your belief), but that point is mute, as I am talking about God the Father whom LDS believe to be a different person with his own ressurected body.

I want to clarify one more time that I am just looking for your (the LDS) point of view on this question, I am not looking to debate whether the theology is correct or not.

Thanks in advance for any clarification you can give.
 
Yes, it’s very interesting that many LDS apologists use these OT verses as proof that the Father has a body of flesh and bones (many use Genesis 1:26 as proof of this) when Jesus, who is supposed to be Jehovah, God of the Old Testament, did not have a body of flesh and bones at this point. Saying that Jehovah had a spiritual body doesn’t answer the question, because many Mormon apologists claim that these verses are proof of the Father having a flesh and bone body. So which is it? And I agree, if Jehovah is the God of the OT, then how can OT verses be used as evidence that the Father has a body of flesh and bones?
 
CatholicGuyNY said:
Yes, it’s very interesting that many LDS apologists use these OT verses as proof that the Father has a body of flesh and bones (many use Genesis 1:26 as proof of this) when Jesus, who is supposed to be Jehovah, God of the Old Testament, did not have a body of flesh and bones at this point. Saying that Jehovah had a spiritual body doesn’t answer the question, because many Mormon apologists claim that these verses are proof of the Father having a flesh and bone body. So which is it? And I agree, if Jehovah is the God of the OT, then how can OT verses be used as evidence that the Father has a body of flesh and bones?
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CatholicGuyNY and CBelarski,

Although I’m not an “LDS apologist”, LDS know that Jesus is indeed Jehovah (as I have recently come to understand that Catholics believe also). So any verse in the Old Testament (after the fall of Adam and Eve) where the Lord has made an appearance and has been seen, was indeed the pre-mortal Jesus (Jehovah), but was seen with “spiritual eyes opened” so that His spirit body could be seen, and it was like His physical body was going to be.

But Genesis 1:26 is a verse where God the Father is conversing with Jehovah, and says “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:” So these literal words give a simple and adequate foundation for knowing that God the Father has a physical body, and that man is made in His image, “after His likeness” or in other words, “what He looks like” (minus the glory). Thus it makes complete sense when the Savior says, “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father” that this is a simple declaration that to see the Son would be like seeing the Father (in other words, both would be seen to have a physical body.)

I realize that Catholics would attribute different meanings to each of those verses, so no need to explain and rehash that.

Wishing peace to all readers.🙂
 
saintpetercatholic.com/QA_image_of_God.htm

“The “Image of God” does not refer to a physical resemblance, or to appearance of any kind. God the Father does not have a physical body. Neither does God the Holy Spirit. God the Son did not have a body when human beings were created in God’s image.
This is no small point. The belief that the Image of God is a physical resemblance has the potential to lead to all sorts of problems. For example, which race is most completely in God’s Image? Are women less in God’s Image because we refer to God in male terms? Are people with physical disabilities less in the Image of God because they lack the completeness of physical health? The fact is that all of humanity is created in the Image of God. God’s Image is instilled within our very nature.

There are three basic elements of human nature that are specifically in God’s Image. Two of these elements are faculties, potentials for specific abilities that are endowed by virtue of the human soul. No matter how well these faculties are actuated through our physical bodies, they invariably exist within the soul of every human being.
The first such faculty is the intellect. The intellect is the human faculty to think in spiritual ways. The ability to think about abstract ideas, the ability to ponder mysteries of the spiritual world, and ultimately the ability to ponder the true essence of existence are all abilities that arise from the intellect. Before the Fall, when we lost the Likeness of God (but retained His Image), we were able learn easily and readily, without limit, all of God’s Truth. Such powers reflect the omniscience of God.

The second faculty given to us in the Image of God is the will. The will allows us to choose freely. This free choice gives us the power to create who we become. Our choices help to create our character, and ultimately our destinies. Before the Fall, our wills were perfectly free, meaning that we were able to unfailingly choose the best possible good in every situation. This power reflects God’s omnipotence.

Finally, humankind is meant to live in relationships of love with each other, in reflection of the relationship of Divine Love inherent in the Holy Trinity. Just as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exist together in a unity of perfect self-giving to each other, human beings are meant to give themselves as gifts to one another. This is evident from the very beginning, in the book of Genesis. The only time God says that something is not good in the stories of creation is “It is not good that man should be alone.” Why is this not good? It’s not good, not only because Adam was lonely, but also because he was not a true Image of God by himself. God created Eve so that Adam could Image God’s Trinitarian love. This reflection of Trinitarian love is most completely seen in the marital relationship. However, Christ reveals definitively that our love is to be universal. We are to love our neighbor, and even our enemy. We are to love them as Christ loved us, being willing to give our very lives for them. Christ reaffirms the special character of marriage (and thus the Church receives marriage as a sacrament), but also calls all of us to share this love with everyone else.

Continued…
 
Why is it so important that human beings be created in the Image of God? One answer is to make God’s full glory present to the physical, visible world. However, human beings are more than just art pieces expressing God’s presence. We are created to live in relationship with God. The Imago Dei (Latin for Image of God) is an inherent part of the original covenant. God’s entire creation is His gift to humanity – His love and beneficence given to us in ways that our nature as human beings can readily receive. The intellect and will are created in the Image of God precisely to allow us to receive the greatest gifts that God wants to offer us. God’s omniscience is not simply (as is commonly assumed) that God knows everything. It is much greater than that. What God “knows” actually becomes reality. God’s omniscience creates truth, which He offers to us. The human intellect is our ability to receive God’s truth. In the same way, God’s omnipotence is His power to create goodness. The human will is our ability to receive his goodness, to freely choose it. The Imago Dei is human nature’s ability to be the receivers of God’s love, truth, and goodness within the covenant.

God does not want us to be passive receivers of His love, truth, and goodness either. He wants us to use what He gives us in order to participate in His very life. God wants us to cooperate with Him. When we work, we receive God’s goodness, truth, and love, and cooperate with His power of creation to make part of our world better for others. God calls us to love our neighbor so that we can use the love He gives to us in order to cooperate with Him in showing His love to others.

Yes, sin and ignorance make our ability to reflect, receive, and cooperate with God’s love imperfect. However, the grace won for us by Christ’s death and resurrection makes it possible for us to exercise the Imago Dei. Christ’s grace also helps us to begin the healing process of our souls so that we can regain the likeness of God.
That means that the Imago Dei is not passive. We must live it out every day. Holiness means gaining that healing, striving toward that perfection, and cooperating with God so that the Imago Dei He placed in our souls can shine forth His glory.”

Source used with permission / www.UtahMission.com
http://www.saintpetercatholic.com/QA_image_of_God.htm
 
This is also good for understanding the Catholic position

**ARTICLE 1
MAN: THE IMAGE OF GOD **
**1701 **"Christ, . . . in the very revelation of the mystery of the Father and of his love, makes man fully manifest to himself and brings to light his exalted vocation."2 It is in Christ, "the image of the invisible God,"3 that man has been created “in the image and likeness” of the Creator. It is in Christ, Redeemer and Savior, that the divine image, disfigured in man by the first sin, has been restored to its original beauty and ennobled by the grace of God.4
**1702 **The divine image is present in every man. It shines forth in the communion of persons, in the likeness of the unity of the divine persons among themselves (cf. chapter two).
**1703 **Endowed with “a spiritual and immortal” soul,5 the human person is "the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake."6 From his conception, he is destined for eternal beatitude.
**1704 **The human person participates in the light and power of the divine Spirit. By his reason, he is capable of understanding the order of things established by the Creator. By free will, he is capable of directing himself toward his true good. He finds his perfection "in seeking and loving what is true and good."7
**1705 **By virtue of his soul and his spiritual powers of intellect and will, man is endowed with freedom, an "outstanding manifestation of the divine image."8
**1706 **By his reason, man recognizes the voice of God which urges him "to do what is good and avoid what is evil."9 Everyone is obliged to follow this law, which makes itself heard in conscience and is fulfilled in the love of God and of neighbor. Living a moral life bears witness to the dignity of the person.
**1707 **"Man, enticed by the Evil One, abused his freedom at the very beginning of history."10 He succumbed to temptation and did what was evil. He still desires the good, but his nature bears the wound of original sin. He is now inclined to evil and subject to error:
Man is divided in himself. As a result, the whole life of men, both individual and social, shows itself to be a struggle, and a dramatic one, between good and evil, between light and darkness.11
**1708 **By his Passion, Christ delivered us from Satan and from sin. He merited for us the new life in the Holy Spirit. His grace restores what sin had damaged in us.
**1709 **He who believes in Christ becomes a son of God. This filial adoption transforms him by giving him the ability to follow the example of Christ. It makes him capable of acting rightly and doing good. In union with his Savior, the disciple attains the perfection of charity which is holiness. Having matured in grace, the moral life blossoms into eternal life in the glory of heaven.
 
dianaiad said:
Yes.
Gen. 1: 27 (Moses 2: 27) God created man in his own image.
Gen. 5: 1 God created man, in the likeness of God made he him.
Gen. 9: 6 in the image of God made he man.
Gen. 18: 33 Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing.
Gen. 32: 30 I have seen God face to face.
Ex. 24: 10 they saw the God of Israel, there was under his feet.
Ex. 31: 18 (Deut. 9: 10) written with the finger of God.
Ex. 33: 11 Lord spake unto Moses face to face.
Ex. 33: 23 thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not.
Num. 12: 8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth.
Matt. 3: 17 a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son.
Matt. 4: 4 every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Matt. 17: 5 a voice out of the cloud.
Luke 24: 39 for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
John 14: 9 he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.
Acts 7: 56 the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Rom. 8: 29 predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son.
2 Cor. 4: 4 Christ, who is the image of God.
Philip. 2: 6 who, being in the form of God.
Philip. 3: 21 our vile body . . . fashioned like unto his glorious body.
Col. 1: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God.
Heb. 1: 3 the express image of his person.
James 3: 9 men which are made after the similitude of God.
1 Jn. 3: 2 when he shall appear, we shall be like him.
Rev. 22: 4 they shall see his face.
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Any Catholic response to this doctrinal evidence or will we continue to debate proper forum etiquette?
 
ErikP said:
Any Catholic response to this doctrinal evidence or will we continue to debate proper forum etiquette?
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See post 44, 45, 46 and any number of other posts, or were you looking for a verse for verse debate in which case each side has been utterly exhausted.
 
ParkerD said:
CatholicGuyNY and CBelarski,

Although I’m not an “LDS apologist”, LDS know that Jesus is indeed Jehovah (as I have recently come to understand that Catholics believe also). So any verse in the Old Testament (after the fall of Adam and Eve) where the Lord has made an appearance and has been seen, was indeed the pre-mortal Jesus (Jehovah), but was seen with “spiritual eyes opened” so that His spirit body could be seen, and it was like His physical body was going to be.

But Genesis 1:26 is a verse where God the Father is conversing with Jehovah, and says “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:” So these literal words give a simple and adequate foundation for knowing that God the Father has a physical body, and that man is made in His image, “after His likeness” or in other words, “what He looks like” (minus the glory). Thus it makes complete sense when the Savior says, “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father” that this is a simple declaration that to see the Son would be like seeing the Father (in other words, both would be seen to have a physical body.)

I realize that Catholics would attribute different meanings to each of those verses, so no need to explain and rehash that.

Wishing peace to all readers.🙂
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Thanks Parker. I think what I’m getting at is that I’ve noticed that some LDS apologists use Old Testament verses as proofs for the Father having a body of flesh and bones, which doesn’t seem to make sense, since it is believed that Jesus/Jehovah is the God of the Old Testament, who did not have a body of flesh and bones at that time.
 
CatholicGuyNY said:
Thanks Parker. I think what I’m getting at is that I’ve noticed that some LDS apologists use Old Testament verses as proofs for the Father having a body of flesh and bones, which doesn’t seem to make sense, since it is believed that Jesus/Jehovah is the God of the Old Testament, who did not have a body of flesh and bones at that time.
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CatholicGuyNY,
I think you and the others who noted this have made a good point that is well taken and can be learned from. Thanks, sincerely.
 
I re-read all of the post here and I want to say thanks for the opportunity to all here (all)

The post I put on as to 15,16 and 17 pretty much came about so fast that I did not take the time to really let them sink in, like not praying enough.

I did this morning. Post 15 and 16 came from a search and it was the first thing that popped up. That led me to the Catechism. Reading all of the posts again one thing became front and center for me this morning and it was the Sacrament of Confession.

I know in my heart that this is the best way to stay close to our Lord. The best way to fight the battle we all fight each and every day. Admitting that we are sinners, looking towards the Crucifix, the love that is upon it and beyond it is where we discover this Image of God. Instead of running away from our own sins, running away from the Cross you find yourself camped underneath it, gazing up to Him who loves us so greatly. It is here at this spot that we can all get along.

In Christ

Rich

www.utahmission.com
 
Well said Rich,
The act of confession is what clears our heart, enables us to hear God, and thus follow Christ’ teachings.
catholic-rcia said:
Reading all of the posts again one thing became front and center for me this morning and it was the Sacrament of Confession.

I know in my heart that** this is the best way to stay close to our Lord**. The best way to fight the battle we all fight each and every day. Admitting that we are sinners, looking towards the Crucifix, the love that is upon it and beyond it is where we discover this Image of God. Instead of running away from our own sins, running away from the Cross you find yourself camped underneath it, gazing up to Him who loves us so greatly. It is here at this spot that we can all get along.
www.utahmission.com
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cbelarski said:
My unserstanding is that LDS doctrine teaches that God and Jesus are seperate exaulted men and not one in the same. Is this correct? If so, which one does LDS doctrine teach was talking to the Old Testament prophets?
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Considering that they derive some of their scripture from a piece of papyrus that was proven to just be a regular Egyptian funeral thing, I don’t even see why they’re incorrect views on God even matter. I mean, call me racist or bigoted, but it was the LDS Church who refused my great grandfather priesthood because he was black.
 
SnakeMauler said:
Considering that they derive some of their scripture from a piece of papyrus that was proven to just be a regular Egyptian funeral thing, I don’t even see why they’re incorrect views on God even matter. I mean, call me racist or bigoted, but it was the LDS Church who refused my great grandfather priesthood because he was black.
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Here I was thinking this was the Non-Catholic Religions section, where we discuss the beliefs of…Non-Catholic Religions…:rolleyes:
 
Todd520 said:
Well said Rich,
The act of confession is what clears our heart, enables us to hear God, and thus follow Christ’ teachings.
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You bet, thanks

Following Jesus is not something we do to get to heaven, we do it because we desire to turn His love to us to others in need. Its no longer following the Law because we follow Jesus who is the law. We follow the law for Him and not for selfish reasons or somekind of transaction such as if I do this I will get that. This is flushed out of us because it becomes known as sin. Its pretty deep and very Catholic to find these truths at the core of the faith. I am amazed by it each and every day. Really keeps me grounded.

Again thanks
 
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