Question regarding the Holy Spirit

[StMikhael]

This is something that dawned on me as I study the Old Testament. It is such a fundemental question I feel a bit the fool for asking.

Jesus told Peter He must leave. If He did not leave he could not send the Paraclete/Helper/Spirit. This implies that the Holy Spirit was not with “us” (individuals alive at the time) prior. If this is an accurate statement perhaps it is because Jesus (The King)Himself was with us therefore there was no need for the Holy Spirit.

My question is, was the Holy Spirit with the “chosen people” prior to Christ’s death and resurrection?

If the answer is no (or partially) what is the result (or anticipated result) of the Holy Spirit being with us now (since Christ sent Him)? From what I understand (if correct) it is to help us along our path of spiritual growth. Kind of like the angel on the shoulder (I know the Spirit is not an angel, just an analogy). He helps us by providing us with Faith, Hope and Charity that we would otherwise not be able to obtain. He provides us with the “gift of Faith”.

Now if I have this at all correct, what of the people before the time of Christ? Could the absense of the Holy Spirit in this regard be the reason (or part of the reason) for the chosen people’s continuous falling from and breaking thier covenant with God? Is the reason God is no longer with us in the same way as he apparently was in the OT (showing himself in a more tangible manner…i.e. parting the Red Sea) because we now have the Holy Spirit residing in our own individual souls? Would we be lost without the Holy Spirit and fall immediately in apostasy as many did in OT times?

Any help much appreciated.

 

[mactizzle]

I cannot answer your question, But I find it very interesting and am very interested in the answers and or comments it will generate.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

This is something that dawned on me as I study the Old Testament. It is such a fundemental question I feel a bit the fool for asking.

Jesus told Peter He must leave. If He did not leave he could not send the Paraclete/Helper/Spirit. This implies that the Holy Spirit was not with “us” (individuals alive at the time) prior. If this is an accurate statement perhaps it is because Jesus (The King)Himself was with us therefore there was no need for the Holy Spirit.

My question is, was the Holy Spirit with the “chosen people” prior to Christ’s death and resurrection?

If the answer is no (or partially) what is the result (or anticipated result) of the Holy Spirit being with us now (since Christ sent Him)? From what I understand (if correct) it is to help us along our path of spiritual growth. Kind of like the angel on the shoulder (I know the Spirit is not an angel, just an analogy). He helps us by providing us with Faith, Hope and Charity that we would otherwise not be able to obtain. He provides us with the “gift of Faith”.

Now if I have this at all correct, what of the people before the time of Christ? Could the absense of the Holy Spirit in this regard be the reason (or part of the reason) for the chosen people’s continuous falling from and breaking thier covenant with God? Is the reason God is no longer with us in the same way as he apparently was in the OT (showing himself in a more tangible manner…i.e. parting the Red Sea) because we now have the Holy Spirit residing in our own individual souls? Would we be lost without the Holy Spirit and fall immediately in apostasy as many did in OT times?

Any help much appreciated.

**Jesus told Peter He must leave. If He did not leave he could not send the Paraclete/Helper/Spirit. This implies that the Holy Spirit was not with “us” (individuals alive at the time) prior. **

SM this is the “Noli Me Tangere” teaching. Or agin, “the flesh avails nothing.” In other words faith in God, sanctifying grace, languishes and cannot grow if we pine for the sweet milk of Jesus’s corporeal presence be it human (when known to be God) or glorious (resurrected presence). Faith in those who do not see is a far stronger and more beautiful thing than in those who saw.

The rest of your supposings is interesting but in the end a sound theology of grace would answer all those questions. Especially the relationship between actual grace and sanctifying grace. Have a look at the CCC and search on these terms. Its quite instructive.

As a starter:
Of course the HS has always been present in those with faith of Old. The HS can be used to signify indwelling grace (sanctifying, making us worthy of heaven) but also to signify the assistance of actual grace (which provides “one time only” opportunities for the unholy to become abidingly holy or for the holy to merit greater holiness).

 

[StMikhael]

**Jesus told Peter He must leave. If He did not leave he could not send the Paraclete/Helper/Spirit. This implies that the Holy Spirit was not with “us” (individuals alive at the time) prior. **

SM this is the “Noli Me Tangere” teaching. Or agin, “the flesh avails nothing.” In other words faith in God, sanctifying grace, languishes and cannot grow if we pine for the sweet milk of Jesus’s corporeal presence be it human (when known to be God) or glorious (resurrected presence). Faith in those who do not see is a far stronger and more beautiful thing than in those who saw.

The rest of your supposings is interesting but in the end a sound theology of grace would answer all those questions. Especially the relationship between actual grace and sanctifying grace. Have a look at the CCC and search on these terms. Its quite instructive.

As a starter:
Of course the HS has always been present in those with faith of Old. The HS can be used to signify indwelling grace (sanctifying, making us worthy of heaven) but also to signify the assistance of actual grace (which provides “one time only” opportunities for the unholy to become abidingly holy or for the holy to merit greater holiness).

Thank you Blue Horizon, I will certainly look at the CCC for answers, good suggestion.

 

[StMikhael]

When I do not get answers (or get very few) to questions such as these I fear it is because I have stumbled across a question of which there are no good answers.

What I find troubling is that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit. This would imply He was not here prior to Jesus.

If this is true I wonder what the ramifications of the people of the OT were to not having the HS.

If it is false then I wonder what the significance of Jesus sending us the HS if He was here anyway.

Just seems a bit illogical on its face.

 

[TimothyH]

When I do not get answers (or get very few) to questions such as these I fear it is because I have stumbled across a question of which there are no good answers.

What I find troubling is that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit. This would imply He was not here prior to Jesus.

If this is true I wonder what the ramifications of the people of the OT were to not having the HS.

If it is false then I wonder what the significance of Jesus sending us the HS if He was here anyway.

Just seems a bit illogical on its face.

Look at the context. Look in the Bible at whom Jesus was speaking to.

The words about it being better for him to go because he would then send the Holy Spirit were spoken at the Last Supper, when he was alone with his 12 Apostles. Jesus was speaking to the leadership of his Church. This is recounted in John’s Gospel. John wrote to the Church.

It’s about Jesus sending the Holy Spirit to protect and guied the Church. Jesus had removed authority and the guidance of the Holy Spirit from the rabinnical and levitical authorities and given authority and guidance of the Holy Spirit to his new Church.

It’s about the Church.

-Tim-

 

[anjoh66]

Look at the context. Look in the Bible at whom Jesus was speaking to.

The words about it being better for him to go because he would then send the Holy Spirit were spoken at the Last Supper, when he was alone with his 12 Apostles. Jesus was speaking to the leadership of his Church. This is recounted in John’s Gospel. John wrote to the Church.

It’s about Jesus sending the Holy Spirit to protect and guied the Church. Jesus had removed authority and the guidance of the Holy Spirit from the rabinnical and levitical authorities and given authority and guidance of the Holy Spirit to his new Church.

It’s about the Church.

-Tim-

Very good answer at which i fully agree.

Yes, it is the official teaching of the Church that it was born on the day of Pentecost and The Holy Spirits primary work is to lead the Church into the whole truth that Jesus could not give to them at that time.

It is the interpretation of the scriptures and the holy tradition, these two make up the whole truth.

 

[Karen107]

Very good answer at which i fully agree.

Yes, it is the official teaching of the Church that it was born on the day of Pentecost and The Holy Spirits primary work is to lead the Church into the whole truth that Jesus could not give to them at that time.

It is the interpretation of the scriptures and the holy tradition, these two make up the whole truth.

I’m enjoying reading this and learning more about it. I enjoyed this question because I’ve asked that question myself and came to my own but similar conclusions.

I Probably would have started out saying something like this. The Holy Spirit has always been here because the Holy Spirit is part of the Holy Trinity.

 

[Robert_Sock]

According to Judaism, the Holy Spirit was with the Jewish people, I believe, until the destruction of the Second Temple.

 

[Reuben_J]

This is something that dawned on me as I study the Old Testament. It is such a fundemental question I feel a bit the fool for asking.

Jesus told Peter He must leave. If He did not leave he could not send the Paraclete/Helper/Spirit. This implies that the Holy Spirit was not with “us” (individuals alive at the time) prior. If this is an accurate statement perhaps it is because Jesus (The King)Himself was with us therefore there was no need for the Holy Spirit.

My question is, was the Holy Spirit with the “chosen people” prior to Christ’s death and resurrection?

If the answer is no (or partially) what is the result (or anticipated result) of the Holy Spirit being with us now (since Christ sent Him)? From what I understand (if correct) it is to help us along our path of spiritual growth. Kind of like the angel on the shoulder (I know the Spirit is not an angel, just an analogy). He helps us by providing us with Faith, Hope and Charity that we would otherwise not be able to obtain. He provides us with the “gift of Faith”.

Now if I have this at all correct, what of the people before the time of Christ? Could the absense of the Holy Spirit in this regard be the reason (or part of the reason) for the chosen people’s continuous falling from and breaking thier covenant with God? Is the reason God is no longer with us in the same way as he apparently was in the OT (showing himself in a more tangible manner…i.e. parting the Red Sea) because we now have the Holy Spirit residing in our own individual souls? Would we be lost without the Holy Spirit and fall immediately in apostasy as many did in OT times?

Any help much appreciated.

You are about right in saying what the Holy Spirit does. However in many cases he is much more - he is the power engine for us. Or perhaps that is the same thing.

The Holy Spirit was there in the OT because he is God without the bound of time and space. In Genesis, both word and spirit were being mentioned with God. The Jews do not realize that though but Christians have the benefit of Jesus and understand the concept of the Trinity.

What Jesus really meant in John 14 about the promise of the Paraclete and which you are right too, is actually the promise of ‘I will be with you until the end of the ages’. In other word, there is no difference for the disciples who were with Jesus whether Jesus left them or not because in both cases, it is as if Jesus was still with them.

The disciples had become very familiar with the presence of Jesus among them that they were quite dependent on him. He saved them from the storm, solved tricky situation like giving food to the masses (or wine too, remember?), spoke for them against the teachers of the law, taught them, revealed to them mystery of the scripture (remember the road to Emmaus?) answered their queries, healed the sick, drove out demons and raised the dead. As long as Jesus was with them, it was alright, they had a teacher, a protector, a counsellor and an advocate in Jesus who practically functioned as such for them.

Now Jesus cannot be with them physically all the times, and over time there would be more disciples and it would be even more physically unnatenable for Jesus to be with each one of them at any one time. The promise of the Holy Spirit therefore is a good thing because he can be at anywhere anytime with the believers. And it is no different than when Jesus himself was around, for the Holy Spirit does that function now.

Thus Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever because he never really left when he sent his Holy Spirit in his place.

God bless.

 

[po18guy]

When I do not get answers (or get very few) to questions such as these I fear it is because I have stumbled across a question of which there are no good answers.

What I find troubling is that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit. This would imply He was not here prior to Jesus.

If this is true I wonder what the ramifications of the people of the OT were to not having the HS.

If it is false then I wonder what the significance of Jesus sending us the HS if He was here anyway.

Just seems a bit illogical on its face.

The OT writers have an essentially different view of God and His Spirit than the NT writers. Simeon the prophet went to the temple in Jerusalem, because it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would see the Messiah (Luke 2:26-27). It was the Holy Spirit that drove him to the temple on that day, just as the Holy Spirit drove Jesus into the desert after His baptism (Matthew 4:1). As well, during His ministry, Jesus breathed on the apostles and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit” (John 20:22).

Believing in a God Who is three divine Persons, consubstantial with One Another, it is impossible to completely separate them. Thus, if the Spirit can proceed from the Father, He can also proceed from the Son. Paul teaches that we are tabernacles of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:19). How much more so with the only begotten Son!

 

[StMikhael]

Thank you for the thoughtful answers.

Part of what brought this question to mind is the falling away of the Israeli people, over and over again, usually just one generation removed from a dramatic Divine Intervention in their ways of life.

Contrast that to the early days of the Church, many generations removed from the time of the Ascension of Christ, Pentecost, the Church grew dramatically and has grown over the centuries around the Globe till today where it is still growing. Of course many can argue and perhaps rightly so, that it has taken a dramatic step back (particularily in Europe and now the United States) in the past 50 or so years.

I am left wondering if ths contrast, the Jews inability to hang in there, and the Christians dramatic growth may be attributed to a different degree, or a different sort of presence of the Holy Spirit, who’s arrival so announced at Pentecost? Some of you addressed this with the Holy Spirit’s guidence of the Chruch as the Body of Christ.

I’ve read theologians who make the claim that the story of Salvation History, is such the way as it is; the choice of the “Chosen People”, the Jews, to initiate matters; the Covanents made between God and these peoples; God’s kept promises to these Covenant bonds and the Jews inabilties to keep their end of the covenants, was necessary to -prepare- for the coming of the Messiah.

Could part of the point God is making in the narrative of Salvation History be, how He will not only provide us with the means of Salvation thru Jesus Christ, but also (in tune with this thread) that He provides us with His HS, because we have demonstrated throughout Salvation History in the OT, that without Him (HS), residing with us in a differenet, more active (let’s say) fashion, we will once again fail?

Might this be a true way of viewing things?

Thus the promise, The gates of hell will not prevail against the Chruch.

 

[mercytruth]

Thank you for the thoughtful answers.

Part of what brought this question to mind is the falling away of the Israeli people, over and over again, usually just one generation removed from a dramatic Divine Intervention in their ways of life.

Contrast that to the early days of the Church, many generations removed from the time of the Ascension of Christ, Pentecost, the Church grew dramatically and has grown over the centuries around the Globe till today where it is still growing. Of course many can argue and perhaps rightly so, that it has taken a dramatic step back (particularily in Europe and now the United States) in the past 50 or so years.

I am left wondering if ths contrast, the Jews inability to hang in there, and the Christians dramatic growth may be attributed to a different degree, or a different sort of presence of the Holy Spirit, who’s arrival so announced at Pentecost? Some of you addressed this with the Holy Spirit’s guidence of the Chruch as the Body of Christ.

I’ve read theologians who make the claim that the story of Salvation History, is such the way as it is; the choice of the “Chosen People”, the Jews, to initiate matters; the Covanents made between God and these peoples; God’s kept promises to these Covenant bonds and the Jews inabilties to keep their end of the covenants, was necessary to -prepare- for the coming of the Messiah.

Could part of the point God is making in the narrative of Salvation History be, how He will not only provide us with the means of Salvation thru Jesus Christ, but also (in tune with this thread) that He provides us with His HS, because we have demonstrated throughout Salvation History in the OT, that without Him (HS), residing with us in a differenet, more active (let’s say) fashion, we will once again fail?

Might this be a true way of viewing things?

Thus the promise, The gates of hell will not prevail against the Chruch.

 

[TimothyH]

Very good answer at which i fully agree.

Yes, it is the official teaching of the Church that it was born on the day of Pentecost and The Holy Spirits primary work is to lead the Church into the whole truth that Jesus could not give to them at that time.

It is the interpretation of the scriptures and the holy tradition, these two make up the whole truth.

It is also important to remember that the Holy Spirit works in each of us as individuals. I hope I didn’t come across as too triumphalist about the Church.

God has touched me in incredible ways and often speaks to me in very intimate, personal ways. We have to be willing to pray and then walk away in faith, knowing that God has heard us even though it feels like we are praying to a wall and there is no difference in the way we feel after prayer as compared to before. Eventually, if we stay faithful to the little responsibilities before us in the “Sacrament of the present moment”, God will eventually answer in a whisper, even if the answer is “No.”

There will be a thought, then it will be more frequent, eventually pressing itself against the conciousness almost constantly. Not all of these thoughts are from God but if the initial thought is not dismissed as mental noise, but cautiously noted, some of them do become more frequent and stronger, and eventually the realization comes that God is speaking. But the Holy Spirit never competes. The Holy Spirit will not try to drown out your radio or your TV or the frenetic activity of our day to day lives. That is why silence is so important. Silence is the gateway to the interior life, but silence and sitting still frightens most people.

The Holy Spirit can and does work in our lives individually. Jesus was a mystic - the supreme mystic - in deep communion with The Father. He “Withdrew to a lonely place” to pray often. There is not enough silence and stillness in our lives today.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

There are two books I recommend.

In the School of the Holy Spirit by Jacques Philippe. It is short but powerful, less than $10, about how to discern when the Holy Spirit is speaking and how to foster the promptings of the Holy Spirit in our lives. This book was almost life changing for me.

scepterpublishers.org/product/pictures/5370.jpg

The Sun at Midnight: Monastic Experience of the Christian Mystery by Bernardo Olivera OSCO. This is more academic, but still extremely good, especially for anyone with a Benedictine/Cistercian spirituality, about Christian mysticism and the practice of the spiritual life, with Jesus as the example of the premier mystic.

litpress.org/covers/9780879070298.jpg

-Tim-

 

[Karen107]

mercytruth:
I want to add a little something to this. The law of moses and the Isrealites sacrificing rituals were part of the increasing of faith, and faith increases by the working of the Law. Without law there can be no sin and without sin there can be no forgiveness or mercy, and all this led them to the preparation of the Messiah to come. So the Isrealites were the way to bring God into the world and so the Holy Spirit was present with them. The Holy Spirit was present in creation Genesis 1:1-2 and by the power of the Holy Spirit God was made man through Mary.

Romans 5:20 Law came in, to increase the trespass; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

Now the Holy Spirit does reside in us as we are buried into the Life and Death of Jesus through our baptism (we are of one spirit of God), but we also become a member of the family of God (the church). The pentecost marks the birth of the church because that is where the disciples came together under one (accord=belief) and the church was born. That doesn’t say it wasn’t in the works before it for the Christians, but ihe church was annointed by God with the Holy Spirit (flames above their heads) in the Upper Room Because they became One Body of Christ (gathered under one accord or belief). They no longer were Jews and Gentiles, but all part of the same Church. The new Isreal.

The Body of Christ meaning We… “WE are temples of the Holy Spirit”. So we must take care of our bodies (and souls) for we risk hurting the temple (the body of Christ) Jesus lives in us individually and as a part of the body of Christ. When two or more are gather in his name He is there among them… We all are part (or members) of the body of Christ and each member must take care of themselves as we are also part of the body of Christ.

1corinthians 6:15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Should I therefore take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that whoever is united to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For it is said, “The two shall be one flesh.”

1corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20 For you were bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body.

 

[Karen107]

Its important to remember that The Holy Spirit is our Advocate or our helper as the third person of God. It is and was present in Jesus (part of the trinity), and in the people of God, we are advocates of God by virtue of the fact that we have the Holy Spirit of God in us and can allow that Holy Spirit to act in our behalf (as an advocate) to lead people to God, just as Jesus does, (Jesus, Also our advocate) and Mary and all the Saints. Praying for others is a Great way to use our Advocate helper (the Holy Spirit of God) to lead people to God.

Going back to the Isrealites and their transgressions leading to increasing faith. The more law, the more sin, the more faith increased. Like today, the more we know about sin and what is sin, the more we find ourselves close to God working on removing whatever sins we make, making our hearts more clean so that we shall see the face of God…

Isaiah 53:12

12 Therefore I will allot him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because he poured out himself to death,
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.(speaking of Jesus)

Saints can be advocates.

1 Timothy 2:1
Instructions concerning Prayer ] First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone,

Jesus our advocate in His priestly role.

Hebrews 7:23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because ** he always lives to intercede for them.**