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Dan_Defender
Guest
That is one view. In Heaven, there is no time yes, but it may be that in Purgatory, time still applies in some way. In the Shepherd of Hermas, it is written that a day of sin equals a year of torment.
Question to a Priest: Often during a funeral I have heard the priest say the deceased is in heaven and suffers no more. How does this fit in with Cath
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
Indulgences haven’t been calculated in days for decades. That went out in the 60s. Now you just get a partial or plenary. The amount of Purgatory time or punishment knocked off by the partial is up to God.
By the way, you do know that when they did “x day indulgence” it didn’t mean x days knocked off your time in Purgatory. It meant an amount of atonement equivalent to X earthly days of penance. Once you die, earthly time no longer applies or makes sense, you are outside it.
By the way, you do know that when they did “x day indulgence” it didn’t mean x days knocked off your time in Purgatory. It meant an amount of atonement equivalent to X earthly days of penance. Once you die, earthly time no longer applies or makes sense, you are outside it.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
This is also what I have heard priests say at wakes and funerals. When a priest has comforted me privately over death of my loved ones, he has said things like “it may very well be that God has taken them to heaven” etc. He doesn’t say they are for sure there. The only time I can see a priest saying someone is certainly in Heaven is when it’s a young child below the age of reason who presumably could not commit mortal sins.
Or perhaps if the priest is St. Padre Pio who could see souls flying to Heaven.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
There’s one more thing to note about Purgatory. God can backdate prayers we say after a person’s death and apply them at an earlier time. So if my mom dies, and I say a prayer for her 10 years later, God who is outside time may well apply that Prayer, and every prayer that I or anyone else would ever say for my mom’s soul, at the time of Mom’s death to get her out of Purgatory faster. She might not have to sit there for 10 earthly years waiting for me to say a prayer. Same for our ancestors or others who died long ago.
It’s up to God whether he wishes to apply the prayers at an earlier time in this way, but he can do it if he wants to.
It’s up to God whether he wishes to apply the prayers at an earlier time in this way, but he can do it if he wants to.
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PrisonerOfChrist
Guest
I just wanted to clarify something. Purgatory indulgences were never X amount of days from Purgatory. They were earthly days of penance to take off from Purgatory e.g. an indulgence obtained that’s worth 300 days worth of penance on earth to take off from Purgatory…
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Roseeurekacross
Guest
The church has said it’s inappropriate to put days on indulgences. We don’t do that anymore. We work for indulgences, then it’s up to God
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ShowersofRoses
Guest
It’s interesting that you said that, since it correlates nicely with Protestant theology.
It’s usually not talked about much, depending on the church, but the belief goes that at the moment of death, believers will be transformed immediately–in a moment–of all sin and go to Heaven to be with Jesus.
Not saying that’s correct, but interesting that you said it. I don’t remember seeing any Catholic theologians talk about it like that.
I’ve just assumed that the length of time varies depending on how attached to his sin the person was at death. And like others, I don’t think time matters much after death.
I think if it was presented more in those terms, Protestants would be much more open to the idea, since most acknowledge that they must be transformed before meeting Jesus anyway.
They just reject any superstitious notion of Purgatory, or images like Dante’s Purgatorio, rightly so. Of course there’s more to it, but still, interesting.
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AlNg
Guest
No. Souls in Purgatory suffer long years of horrific fires according to
a booklet posted on EWTN:
From the booklet Read Me or Rue it:
Carmelite nuns have spent anywhere from 30 to 60 years suffering in the horrific flames of Purgatory.
there is no hunger, no thirst, no poverty, no need, no pain, no
suffering to compare with what the Souls in Purgatory endure…
People do not realize what Purgatory is. They have no conception of its dreadful pains, and they have no idea of the long years that souls are detained in these awful fires.
So grievous is their suffering that one minute in this awful fire seems
like a century.
St. Thomas Aquinas, the Prince of Theologians, says that the fire of
Purgatory is equal in intensity to the fire of Hell, and that the slightest
contact with it is more dreadful than all the possible sufferings of this
Earth!
The existence of Purgatory is so certain that no Catholic has ever
entertained a doubt of it. It was taught from the earliest days of the
Church and was accepted with undoubting faith wherever the Gospel was preached.
this booklet has the
APPROVAL OF HIS EMINENCE THE CARDINAL PATRIARCH OF LISBON
We approve and recommend with all our heart the beautiful little book Read Me or Rue It
https://www.ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/READRUE.TXT
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
Sacraments before death are helpful, but the reality is that many people for whatever reason -a sudden death with no priest there, having relatives or prison guards or whoever who don’t bother to get a priest for you, or inability to consume the Eucharist - don’t get a chance to have them. Also, anointing is now done regularly to anyone in danger of death, which is generally interpreted to include all people who are elderly or have potentially life-threatening medical issues.
It would seem a bit unfair to say that those who received these sacraments just before death are in a better position than those who through no fault of their own didn’t get the chance to receive them. It might also seem unfair to favor a person who received sacraments an hour before he died over the one who received them a week or month ago when the priest happened to have an anointing service or was making his hospital rounds.
I believe God in his mercy would take note of what was in the person’s heart and make up if necessary for any grace not received by those who would have very much wanted last sacraments, but did not get a chance to have them.
It would seem a bit unfair to say that those who received these sacraments just before death are in a better position than those who through no fault of their own didn’t get the chance to receive them. It might also seem unfair to favor a person who received sacraments an hour before he died over the one who received them a week or month ago when the priest happened to have an anointing service or was making his hospital rounds.
I believe God in his mercy would take note of what was in the person’s heart and make up if necessary for any grace not received by those who would have very much wanted last sacraments, but did not get a chance to have them.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I like “Read Me or Rue It” too and it has probably scared a bunch of people into going back to church, but the reality is that the author knows no more about how Purgatory works than you or I do. He’s speculating based on traditional thought. The reality of Purgatory may be quite different. It may also differ for individuals based on how God wishes them to individually experience purgatory.
po18guy
Well-known member
Our sins deserve eternal hell. We cannot merit heaven on our own - never. The greatest works of charity over a finite lifetime pale in comparison to the infinite reward of the Beatific Vision for all eternity. This leaves a huge, insurmountable gap for us. Yet, God’s mercy and grace are made available to us, according to our cooperation with that grace.
God’s mercy and grace bridge the gap, providing us with a “sure hope.”
God’s mercy and grace bridge the gap, providing us with a “sure hope.”
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Keeping the “eulogy” out of the Funeral Mass helps to avoid turning it into a “Canonization”.
There are times, for instance when a baptized person dies before they reach the age of reason, or someone was able to receive the Last Rites with Apostolic Pardon, when someone is validly baptized on their death bed, in those situations we can rejoice!
For the rest of us, we hope and pray.
That does not mean we tell the little child “your grandpa might not be in heaven” in the same way we do not say “your grandpa is now your special angel in heaven”. We comfort those who mourn with hope and prayers.
There are times, for instance when a baptized person dies before they reach the age of reason, or someone was able to receive the Last Rites with Apostolic Pardon, when someone is validly baptized on their death bed, in those situations we can rejoice!
For the rest of us, we hope and pray.
That does not mean we tell the little child “your grandpa might not be in heaven” in the same way we do not say “your grandpa is now your special angel in heaven”. We comfort those who mourn with hope and prayers.
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Bluebright
Guest
God’s mercy. We don’t know the person isnt in heaven. God mercy is sooooo mighty that the person may well be in heaven. It is completely possible for people to go straight to heaven, purely on God’s mercy.I expect either, the priest is an advocate of Divine Mercy (which would be awesome) or he is going down the route of comfort and saying what people would most like to think and hear, which is also merciful and kind. Most of the purpose of the funeral is for people to pray for the soul of the deceased. You can certainly ask for people to pray for you at your own funeral but it will be expected anyway, regardless of where the priest says you are. No prayers are ever wasted.
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tafan2
Guest
I agree, I think the thread title is very overstated. I think priests normally do not say such things. The closest I can even recall is my grandmother, who died in her 80s and had suffered for several years greatly: and the priest talked about how her suffering was over, the veil of her dementia had been lifted.
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AlNg
Guest
Oh. I thought we could trust what is posted at EWTN and approved by a Cardinal.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Cardinals approve and recommend spiritual reading all the time. It doesn’t mean that the Cardinal has personal knowledge of Purgatory either, and even if He did, God would be quite free to make Purgatory a different experience for a different soul.
The Cardinal’s approval in this case dates to 1936. At the time he approved it, the general Church teaching on Purgatory was similar to what is in the book. The teaching on Purgatory has evolved over time, similar to the teaching on Limbo.
The book is still a good book about how to avoid Purgatory and the importance of praying for the poor souls. It is a scarce book and copies of it sometimes sell for very high prices online. I’m sure that EWTN has published it partly so that people can actually find a copy and read it without having to do extensive searches or pay a lot of money.
The Cardinal’s approval in this case dates to 1936. At the time he approved it, the general Church teaching on Purgatory was similar to what is in the book. The teaching on Purgatory has evolved over time, similar to the teaching on Limbo.
The book is still a good book about how to avoid Purgatory and the importance of praying for the poor souls. It is a scarce book and copies of it sometimes sell for very high prices online. I’m sure that EWTN has published it partly so that people can actually find a copy and read it without having to do extensive searches or pay a lot of money.
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Mary_Ellen
Guest
THIS. ^^^^^
I hope no one ‘canonizes’ me at my funeral…I’ll need all the prayers I can get.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Catholics will likely pray for you anyway, as it’s reflexive/ the “done thing” even if they don’t stop to think of the reason they are actually praying for you.
Most Protestants in attendance will likely assume you are already in heaven.
I have seen this in action.
Most Protestants in attendance will likely assume you are already in heaven.
I have seen this in action.
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mythbuster1
Guest
The Apostolic Pardon grants a plenary indulgence without the usual constants, but the penitent must still be free from all attachment to sin in order to fully benefit from it.
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