L
Leeann
Guest
Thank you, thank you, thank you !!! 
To all other posters - my sincere apologies for the interruption!
To all other posters - my sincere apologies for the interruption!
- Status
L
Leeann
Guest
Randy:
âCouldââŚâalmostââŚthese are significant qualifying words. I appreciate the fact that you are tip-toeing carefully here. Clearly, you are conscious of the fact that the Church does not deify Mary. (You left out the words âtrying to assertâ and âwhich could leadââŚwait for itâŚ)
âCouldââŚâalmostââŚthese are significant qualifying words. I appreciate the fact that you are tip-toeing carefully here. Clearly, you are conscious of the fact that the Church does not deify Mary. (You left out the words âtrying to assertâ and âwhich could leadââŚwait for itâŚ)
L
Leeann
Guest
I had to actually âlook upâ the term and found this definition online:
âA FalseDichotomy is an attempt to force a person into choosing one of two seeming opposite extremes, not just one of two arbitrary answers. That is why âIf youâre not with us, youâre against usâ is a FalseDichotomy â because the two alternatives are presented as opposite extremes. But âHe lives in either New York or Bostonâ is not.â
I have no problem with understanding the authority given by Jesus to His disciples - I simply donât donât accept that the claims of the Catholic church - that they are equal to Godâs authority are true.
I see those words âsola scripturaâ /âsola scriptureâ tossed around a lotâŚI personally donât suscribe to that beliefâŚin some instances the bible is very clear, in other places its anything but. You are correct in me referring to the Bereans in the book of Acts, I think it was - Paul commended their attitude of searching the âscripturesâ and testing what was being preached to them.
YesâŚeven then there were false teachers among the early true Christian churchâŚalready developing and laying the foundations for the years to come.
SorryâŚthatâs youâre beliefâŚassuming âHis Churchâ mentioned in your statement is the âCatholic churchââŚas you know from my previous posts, I donât agree.
M
Marc_Aupiais
Guest
We believe not in equal authority, but the sort an advocate gets in a case, or someone with signing power over a child, they are messenger friends, who are our mediator before God (Romans 10).
L
Leeann
Guest
One - all those who believe in/on Him and follow His teachings and put their trust and hope in Him for their salvation.
I donât think Iâve ever stated that I think it is the sole infallible rule of faith for a believerâŚI firmly believe you should never go it alone when reading it!
WelllllâŚyou seeâŚthatâs what the âChurchâ teaches and claims, howeverâŚas stated Iâm sure before somewhereâŚI donât believe that HIS Church is the âCatholic Churchâ or in the claimed âApostolic Successionâ.
YesâŚand thatâs the tricky part for someâŚhow do they âdiscernâ which is which? Really discern? Do they accept âdocumentsâ as being true/âhistoryâ as being true/âdevelopmentâ as being true - based solely on the evidence supplied by the organisation who originally made these "claims"in the first placeâŚthe first and foremost being that only âtheyâ have the authority and ability to properly interpret scripture and even be a major participant in the eventual outcome of a personâs salvation?
Is that âdiscernmentâ or is it placing their individual faith in fallible men and their traditions instead of placing their faith in God.
reposted excerpt by Leeann:
The Catholic church has developed their own doctrines over the yearsâŚand in the process has managed to dampen down the power and affect of His blood in sacrificeâŚby proclaiming that in someway they were/are âthe one true way to salvation - to God.â
Quote:
By their fruits you shall know them.
I donât care if doctrines were âdevelopedâ over the centuries or âinvented from scratchâ (which could be plausible in itselfâŚdepending on the origin of some of the doctrines)âŚwhat I concern myself with is the ultimate consequence these âdevelopedâ doctrines have had - the âdampening downâ on the power and affect of Jesusâ blood sacrifice.
When I encountered Jesus - there was no church - nobody around to explain the âTrinityâ or the âIncarnationâ or even âsalvationâ to me - and I believed - boy did I believe - AFTERWARDS- the scriptures came to life to me - I understood that they were One - right then and there - I understood and accepted the virgin birth - right then and there - no church - nobody had to âtellâ me that. Who was guiding meâŚwho was opening my eyes and âdeveloping my understanding of these thingsâ at that time?
My understanding *grew deeper *when I then attended church,heard the Word preached, worshipped and fellowshipped and participated in communion services, bible studies, prayer groups,âŚin a Church where we were encouraged to âquestionâ any teachings that were confusing or appeared contrary to His Word or contrary to what our own spirits, in communion with His brought to our hearts/mindsâŚto test themâŚto be sure.
You mention aboveâŚâto some degreeââŚyou mean thereâs more to come maybeâŚmore developing doctrinesâŚ??
Getting a bit better at the âyellow quotesâ thing now!
L
Leeann
Guest
Boy oh BoyâŚIâm so sorryâŚhave we ever gotten off the topic of this thread! 
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
No, âif you are not with us, you are against usâ is not a false dichotomy. There are two choices. Unless you want to consider the possibility that there were those who were undecided or unware of Jesus, etc. I donât that is what He was getting at.
However, that is neither here nor there. I said that presenting either the authority of God OR the authority of the Church as two and only two positions is a false dichotomy because there is a third possibility: namely, that the authority of the Church is the authority of God.
I realize you donât. This is where you are in error, but I believe that by study, you can overcome this.
Great. So, if the Bible is not the sole infallible rule of faith for believers, what other infallible rule exists?
I will post on the Bereans separately below.
Youâre not clear hereâŚdo you mean that the false teachers were laying the foundations of heresy for years to come?
I realize that. However, I think your position is unexamined and that a careful study of scripture and history will convince you otherwise.
Now, for the BereansâŚ
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Berean Rejection of Sola Scriptura
If one group could be tagged as believers in sola scriptura, who would it be, the Thessalonians or the Bereans? The Thessalonians, obviously. They, like the Bereans, examined the Scriptures with Paul in the synagogue, yet they rejected his teaching. They rejected the new teaching, deciding after three weeks of deliberation that Paulâs word contradicted the Torah. Their decision was not completely unjustified from their scriptural perspective. How could the Messiah of God be cursed by hanging on a tree like a common criminal, publicly displayed as one who bore the judgment of God? What kind of king and Messiah would that be? This seemed irreconcilable to them (see Simon J. Kistemaker, Acts [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, 1990], 614).
When some of the Greeks and prominent citizens did accept Jesus as Messiah, the Jews became jealousâand rightfully so, from their perspective, since the new believers separated themselves from the synagogue and began meeting elsewhere, at Jasonâs house. The Jews naturally considered themselves the authoritative interpreters of the Torah. Who were the Gentiles to interpret Scripture and decide important theological issues or accept additional revelation? They were the âdogs,â not the chosen custodians of the oracles of God (see William Barclay, The Acts of the Apostles [Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: Westminster Press, 1976], 128).
We can see, then, that if anyone could be classified as adherents to sola scriptura it was the Thessalonian Jews. They reasoned from the Scriptures alone and concluded that Paulâs new teaching was âunbiblical.â
The Bereans, on the other hand, were not adherents of sola scriptura, for they were willing to accept Paulâs new oral teaching as the word of God (as Paul claimed his oral teaching was; see 1 Thess. 2:13). The Bereans, before accepting the oral word of God from Paul, a tradition as even Paul himself refers to it (see 2 Thess. 2:15), examined the Scriptures to see if these things were so. They were noble-minded precisely because they âreceived the word with all eagerness.â Were the Bereans commended primarily for searching the Scriptures? No. Their open-minded willingness to listen was the primary reason they are referred to as noble-mindedânot that they searched the Scriptures. A perusal of grammars and commentaries makes it clear that they were ânoble-mindedâ not for studying Scripture, but for treating Paul more civilly than did the Thessaloniansâwith an open mind and generous courtesy (see I. Howard Marshall, âThe Acts of the Apostlesâ in the Tyndale New Testament Commentaries [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1981], 5:280).
The Bereans searched the Torah no less than the Thessalonians, yet they were eager to accept words of God from the mouth of Paul, in addition to what they already held to be Scripture, that is, the Law and the Prophets. Even if one claims that Paul preached the gospel and not a âtradition,â it is clear that the Bereans were accepting new revelation that was not contained in their Scriptures. These Berean Jews accepted oral teaching, the tradition of the apostles, as equal to Scripture, in addition to, and as an âextensionâ of, the Torah. This is further illustrated by the Christian communityâs reception of Paulâs epistles as divinely inspired Scripture (see 2 Peter 3:16; here Peter seems to acknowledges Paulâs writings as equal to the âother Scriptures,â which can be presumed to refer to the Old Testament).
From Steve Rayâs article: catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9703fea3.asp
Those who followed the doctrine of sola scriptura, the Thessalonians, rejected Paulâs oral preaching and the long awaited Messiah. Those who accepted oral teaching AND scripture, the Bereans, accepted the Gospel and the Messiah.
Additionally, although both groups searched the scriptures, they came to contradictory conclusions about the Messiah. Clearly, scripture alone is insufficient to ensure proper interpretation.
If one group could be tagged as believers in sola scriptura, who would it be, the Thessalonians or the Bereans? The Thessalonians, obviously. They, like the Bereans, examined the Scriptures with Paul in the synagogue, yet they rejected his teaching. They rejected the new teaching, deciding after three weeks of deliberation that Paulâs word contradicted the Torah. Their decision was not completely unjustified from their scriptural perspective. How could the Messiah of God be cursed by hanging on a tree like a common criminal, publicly displayed as one who bore the judgment of God? What kind of king and Messiah would that be? This seemed irreconcilable to them (see Simon J. Kistemaker, Acts [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, 1990], 614).
When some of the Greeks and prominent citizens did accept Jesus as Messiah, the Jews became jealousâand rightfully so, from their perspective, since the new believers separated themselves from the synagogue and began meeting elsewhere, at Jasonâs house. The Jews naturally considered themselves the authoritative interpreters of the Torah. Who were the Gentiles to interpret Scripture and decide important theological issues or accept additional revelation? They were the âdogs,â not the chosen custodians of the oracles of God (see William Barclay, The Acts of the Apostles [Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: Westminster Press, 1976], 128).
We can see, then, that if anyone could be classified as adherents to sola scriptura it was the Thessalonian Jews. They reasoned from the Scriptures alone and concluded that Paulâs new teaching was âunbiblical.â
The Bereans, on the other hand, were not adherents of sola scriptura, for they were willing to accept Paulâs new oral teaching as the word of God (as Paul claimed his oral teaching was; see 1 Thess. 2:13). The Bereans, before accepting the oral word of God from Paul, a tradition as even Paul himself refers to it (see 2 Thess. 2:15), examined the Scriptures to see if these things were so. They were noble-minded precisely because they âreceived the word with all eagerness.â Were the Bereans commended primarily for searching the Scriptures? No. Their open-minded willingness to listen was the primary reason they are referred to as noble-mindedânot that they searched the Scriptures. A perusal of grammars and commentaries makes it clear that they were ânoble-mindedâ not for studying Scripture, but for treating Paul more civilly than did the Thessaloniansâwith an open mind and generous courtesy (see I. Howard Marshall, âThe Acts of the Apostlesâ in the Tyndale New Testament Commentaries [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1981], 5:280).
The Bereans searched the Torah no less than the Thessalonians, yet they were eager to accept words of God from the mouth of Paul, in addition to what they already held to be Scripture, that is, the Law and the Prophets. Even if one claims that Paul preached the gospel and not a âtradition,â it is clear that the Bereans were accepting new revelation that was not contained in their Scriptures. These Berean Jews accepted oral teaching, the tradition of the apostles, as equal to Scripture, in addition to, and as an âextensionâ of, the Torah. This is further illustrated by the Christian communityâs reception of Paulâs epistles as divinely inspired Scripture (see 2 Peter 3:16; here Peter seems to acknowledges Paulâs writings as equal to the âother Scriptures,â which can be presumed to refer to the Old Testament).
From Steve Rayâs article: catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9703fea3.asp
Those who followed the doctrine of sola scriptura, the Thessalonians, rejected Paulâs oral preaching and the long awaited Messiah. Those who accepted oral teaching AND scripture, the Bereans, accepted the Gospel and the Messiah.
Additionally, although both groups searched the scriptures, they came to contradictory conclusions about the Messiah. Clearly, scripture alone is insufficient to ensure proper interpretation.
F
fewnotmany
Guest
With respects to the OP:
Original Sin is our natural tendency to sin. If Mary was not a sinner, why did she need to call on Jesus as her Savior?
Luke 1:47, Mary speaking: â. . . and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior. . .â
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Randy_Carson
Guest
I agree with you. Jesus said, âYou are Peter, and upon this rock I will build what I must call my churchâ - singular - not âchurchesâ - plural.
Now, regarding the one Church of God, what do you think? Is it an invisible, abstract, âspiritualâ church in which all true believers, regardless of denomination, are members? Many people think so, and this seems to be what you are supporting.
Okay, I agree with you here, too!
So, who has the authority to tell you when your interpretation of scripture or your understanding of a theological point is wrong? Who would you be willing to accept teaching and correction from?
I understand that youâre not there, yet. However, are you certain that this is the case? Infallibly certain that the Catholic Church is not the same Church founded by Jesus?
Is there any Catholic doctrine that dampens the power and effect of Jesusâ sacrifice?
Great! This is called âconversionâ and Iâm sure it was a powerful experience. Now, as you move beyond being a âbaby Christianâ, you begin to learn that your relationship with God is not just âyou and Jesusâ but âyou and Jesus and His body, the Churchâ. So, in your desire to be obedient to Jesus, are you a member of the Church that He wants you to be a part of? (Remember, there is only one Church!)
Iâm not anticipating any new surprises if thatâs what you meanâŚhowever, we (humankind, I mean) are constantly facing new challenges and developing our understanding. Donât you think so?
Yep! :dancing:
T
tee_eff_em
Guest
*]Did Mary âcall on Jesus as her Saviorâ? But that is beside the point anyway because:
*]The dogma of the Immaculate Conception does not say that Mary was not saved by the merits of Christâs sacrifice. It merely deals with the *timing *of the moment of her salvation, and the anticipated application of the graces of that sacrifice.
If anything I have written here seems at odds with the Churchâs teaching, it is due only to my poor and informal rhetoric
tee
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fewnotmany
Guest
Yes. See Luke 1:39-56.
Letâs get real simple here, in other words, Mary was not saved by Christâs death and resurrection.
How was the timing of her moment of salvation any different then any of the other miracles that Jesus performed on sinners before the timing of His sacrifice?
I donât know what this statement is saying.
Besides all that, your uncited cut-n-paste post fails to address my claim that Mary had original sin and needed Jesus to save her.
T
tee_eff_em
Guest
Letâs get real simple here, in other words, What the heck are you talking about (since it does not seem to be in response to me, and so seems disingenuous that you have cited my post)? :whacky:
tee
who has no inclination to correspond with anyone who chooses to put âother wordsâ into his mouth, rather than respond to his words at their face value
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
God can âsaveâ a person from a sin by forgiving them, or by providing them the grace never to fall into that particular sin. An ancient analogy is often useful to explain this: A person can be saved from a pit in two ways; one can fall into it and be brought out, or one can be caught before falling into it. Mankind is saved in the first manner, and Mary in the second. Both are saved from the pit of sin. If Jesus wished to save his mother from the stain of sin, what is to prevent him?
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Leeann
Guest
By that reasoning, letâs throw in a fourth possibility - that the authority of the Church (Catholic) is a fallacy.
God/Jesus/The Holy SpiritâŚHis presence and power of authority over all.
Colossians Ch1
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Yes.
Iâve been examining this for over 25 years.
Now, for the BereansâŚ
L
Leeann
Guest
Not all agree with you on your ânot in equal authorityâ:
www.beginningcatholic website
Church Authority In Scripture
The source & nature of Church authority is one of the major issues that beginning Catholics have to examine and come to terms with.
The Catholic Church makes an amazing claim: it teaches, governs, and sanctifies with the authority of Christ himself.
Catholics believe that this gift of Church authority is one of the jewels that Christ has given to us as an aid to our salvation.
also from another site:
Catholic Faith Refresher Course Lesson 19 - Online
DIRECTIONS TO THE STUDENT It is the **authority of the Church ****that will help you to follow Christ when everything else **seems to fail. Temptations will come, your prayers will seem useless; your past training in Christian living will seem inadequate. If there is question of doubt, of serious doubt about your religion, the teaching authority of the Church will keep you close to Christ. If a problem of Christian morality arises, the authority of the Church to govern you will keep you from throwing away your life on sin. **Or if the difficulty is human weakness, the ****Churchâs authority to give you Godâs grace will ultimately **conquer, and bring you to Almighty God. You must understand this lesson on the authority of the Church. Study it slowly and carefully.
The verses below indicate who our âmediatorâ is and they also apply to the Who actually has the âGraceâ we need in times of doubt and trouble and Who actually has the power and ability of dispensing it.
1 Timothy 2:V5 : For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
and we have access to Him directly
Hebrews Ch 4:
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Then there is this excerpt where they state FIRST the necessity of obeying the Church, then make a statement that Jesus has supreme authority and we must obey Him.
DO YOU WANT A CHURCH WITHOUT AUTHORITY
Moreover, the Catholic Church gives Godâs grace to men; it has received the means to give this grace from God Himself. The Catholic Church governs its people with authority. **Catholics must **and do obey the Church.
They then go on to say:
JESUS CHRIST HAS SUPREME AUTHORITY OVER OUR SOULS
Jesus Christ has supreme authority over us. âAll power is given to Me in heaven and on earthâ (Matthew 28:18)
He proved His authority by proving to us that He is God. A Christian worthy of the name accepts Christ the Man-God as his Lord and Master Who has supreme authority over him. This means that the Christian must believe what Christ teaches, **get **grace the way Christ tells him to get grace, **and obey Christ in all things. **
Obviously after attempting to establish their âclaimâ as being the âauthorityâ of Christ here on earth, they then go on to allow that Jesus is really the supreme authority over everyone - however - (*thereâs always an âhoweverâ) *- the section highlighted, with regards to âget the grace by the way Christ tells him to get graceâ - is implying that since obviously the Church(Catholic) - as stated in their paragraph above has His authority and must be âobeyedâ âŚthis is **the **way to âget graceââŚthrough the âChurchâ.
Hebrews Ch 4:
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
To imply that Godâs Grace **has been contained **and can only be obtained now by membership and obeyance to any earth based organization is simply untrue.
As far as âthe signing power over a childâ - Christâs blood was sufficient for meâŚthat represents my âsigning powerâ.
God Bless
L
Leeann
Guest
Apologies again to room - Randy and I have agreed to enter into an âemailâ correspondence with regards to the last few posts - donât want to keep âoff topicâ in this thread.
Thanks for your patience and (name removed by moderator)ut.
God Bless
Thanks for your patience and (name removed by moderator)ut.
God Bless
- Status