Questioning miracles?

[Joe_5859]

Someone said regarding the Fatima sun phenomenon…" What man of the time could have pulled off such a trick? … No man of the time, but the original post suggested a being that was 100,000 years more advanced than the man of the time. Even today we have the technology to be thought of as a God to someone from 1917. Imagine that we could go back to a place as primitive as Fatima was, taking with us a DVD player, modern action movie DVD, and a 50 inch plasma TV. Gullible people would be writing that our demonstration was definitely due to God. Someone else said and reiterated that the real sun actually did spin and descend to Earth locally. But not astronomically to the rest of the world. This shows an abysmal lack of even basic scientific knowledge. They need a good course in basic college physics to see just how silly that statement is. As for Fatima in general, read the Fatima Trilogy found here. anomalistbooks.com/fatima-trilogy.cfm The set is rather expensive and will be very disturbing to believers, but might give you a completely new outlook on the subject if you have an open mind. But then an open mind on this forum is somewhat rare indeed.

So you’re saying someone from 100,000 years in the future went back in time to 1917 to pull the Fatima “trick”?

I think you need a whole lot more faith to swallow that theory than to believe in miracles.

 

[Bonnie]

As for Fatima in general, read the Fatima Trilogy found here. anomalistbooks.com/fatima-trilogy.cfm

I think it takes a whole lot more faith to believe in UFOs and aliens than it does to believe in God!

You would probably enjoy “Project L.U.C.I.F.E.R and the Vatican’s astonishing plan for the arrival of an alien savior.” I found it in our public library, tried to read it, but I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry at the inanity in it. And that was just in the first chapter!

 

[brumano]

Just on a personal level, I have felt God intervene three times in my life in a way that I would refer to as miraculous. I live my life in great doubt, but I will say that I know for sure that God touched me these three times.

Thanks for posting this i think it should clear up a few points of contention and questions about the fatima miracle in this thread. If i may, you are convinced about two things; one that it was God that touched you and two that there was certainly a point, a purpose, and a meaning to what you experienced, is that right?

 

[brumano]

Someone said regarding the Fatima sun phenomenon… Someone else said and reiterated that the real sun actually did spin and descend to Earth locally. But not astronomically to the rest of the world. This shows an abysmal lack of even basic scientific knowledge. They need a good course in basic college physics to see just how silly that statement

I think it’s me again, that is accurately what I said and guess what, you’re right; that’s absolutely impossible isn’t it?

 

[Della]

Someone said regarding the Fatima sun phenomenon…" What man of the time could have pulled off such a trick? … No man of the time, but the original post suggested a being that was 100,000 years more advanced than the man of the time. Even today we have the technology to be thought of as a God to someone from 1917. Imagine that we could go back to a place as primitive as Fatima was, taking with us a DVD player, modern action movie DVD, and a 50 inch plasma TV. Gullible people would be writing that our demonstration was definitely due to God. Someone else said and reiterated that the real sun actually did spin and descend to Earth locally. But not astronomically to the rest of the world. This shows an abysmal lack of even basic scientific knowledge. They need a good course in basic college physics to see just how silly that statement is. As for Fatima in general, read the Fatima Trilogy found here. anomalistbooks.com/fatima-trilogy.cfm The set is rather expensive and will be very disturbing to believers, but might give you a completely new outlook on the subject if you have an open mind. But then an open mind on this forum is somewhat rare indeed.

No, what I wrote was the sun APPEARED to spin and come close to the earth LOCALLY. I believe I stated quite clearly that this was not an astronomical occurrence, but rather an APPEARANCE that the sun did this to the onlookers. This is the part that makes it a miracle because we know that the sun would not have moved out of it’s orbit in the Milky Way nor would we have move out of our orbit around the sun, therefore, it was an APPEARANCE that they saw not an actual sun or earth leaving their respective orbits.

 

[brumano]

QUOTE=Della;11023699]No, what I wrote was the sun APPEARED to spin and come close to the earth LOCALLY. I believe I stated quite clearly that this was not an astronomical occurrence, but rather an APPEARANCE that the sun did this to the onlookers. This is the part that makes it a miracle because we know that the sun would not have moved out of it’s orbit in the Milky Way nor would we have move out of our orbit around the sun, therefore, it was an APPEARANCE that they saw not an actual sun or
earth leaving their respective orbits.

So what you’re saying is really what he is saying, only that God created the appearance of the sun etc. not some technology apart from God. Miracles all have more than appearance, they have physicality and they have more than that, they have something in them that’s just unmistakably, God! In Mark,ch.5vss.34-44 when the lord multiplied the loaves and the fishes, it was real just like the few he multiplied them from, and the people ate and they were filled. In Mt.ch.8,vss.23-27, they were in the boat and a terrible storm came up and they awoke Him and He rebuked the storm, and they asked among each other," Who is this that commands the wind and the sea and they obey him?" It was all very real,wasn’t it? not just appearance, but real. So the miracle of the sun which was designed by Mary which we’re forgetting, had to be in all ways real. It was something designed to move the whole world, away from evil and back toward God.

 

[Geo17]

Science cannot explain God. Nor can it prove Him or disprove Him.

One thing everyone here is forgetting is that 1 thing that makes a miracle a miracle, is that it defies the laws of physics and medicine. People who try to explain miracles as natural happenings, are also looking to deny the existence of God. And as we get closer and closer to the end of the end times, there will be more and more people who do this. It should be no surprise. Jesus said that in the end times there will be many fakes, who will show signs and wonders so convincing that they would trick even the Elect of God, if that was possible. I know this is paraphrased, but Jesus said something like this, and I think it’s in Matthew’s Gospel. But Jesus is also implying here that God has people reserved for Himself that won’t be fooled by these fakers. The phonies were around even in the days of the apostles, and there are more now.

And yes, most likely these phonies are going to come from what we call outer space. Remember that what we call outer space was called the Heavens 2000 years ago. When Jesus left the Earth, He did so by going up into the sky until He could no longer be seen. And then as the people kept looking up, suddenly there were 2 angels there who told the people Jesus would return the same way He left. Meaning from the sky, and beyond our atmosphere. But I think before Jesus returns, the phonies will come from the sky. I think they will be the antichrist, or they will set up the antichrist to fulfill the prophesies about him.

We think we’re so smart that we can explain and understand everything. But I don’t. If the cosmos is indeed endless, as it seems to be. Maybe in another galaxy very far from us, is a place where what we call the laws of physics, don’t apply. Maybe that is where Heaven is. And maybe to come to Earth, even angels need to use machines.

I certainly don’t have all the answers. But when I was 18, in my arrogance I stopped believing God was real. But 10 years later God was calling to me, but I refused to believe He was real. I wanted proof. He gave me proof. Not tangible proof, but by making me know things were going to happen before they did. And He spoke to me through the Bible. Things that would have seemed as nonsense before that time, suddenly took on meaning for me in my life. I considered that a minor miracle. How could something written thousands of years ago have a special relevance for me at the time. It doesn’t make sense. But that’s the nature of God and miracles, they don’t make sense. Not logical, scientific, human sense.

 

[Della]

So what you’re saying is really what he is saying, only that God created the appearance of the sun etc. not some technology apart from God. Miracles all have more than appearance, they have physicality and they have more than that, they have something in them that’s just unmistakably, God! In Mark,ch.5vss.34-44 when the lord multiplied the loaves and the fishes, it was real just like the few he multiplied them from, and the people ate and they were filled. In Mt.ch.8,vss.23-27, they were in the boat and a terrible storm came up and they awoke Him and He rebuked the storm, and they asked among each other," Who is this that commands the wind and the sea and they obey him?" It was all very real,wasn’t it? not just appearance, but real. So the miracle of the sun which was designed by Mary which we’re forgetting, had to be in all ways real. It was something designed to move the whole world, away from evil and back toward God.

The thing is, the whole world did not experience this phenomena, therefore it was a local event meant to confirm the words of the visionaries. We already believe who Mary is and the powers God has graced her with–it wasn’t to prove this, since it needs no proving beyond the Creeds and the constant teaching of the Church. Rather, it was to confirm Our Lady’s words to the 3 young seers so we would believe her words them and heed them. There was no need for the universe to be disrupted to accomplish that.

 

[MPat]

I didn’t say it was a trick by man, but possibly an optical illusion. That would be a natural phenomenon.

Not a knee-jerk reaction, but I look at the natural possibilities before I look for the supernatural. People who focus on the supernatural first can get fooled - and many do. In my 60 years - 37 as a Catholic - I have never seen a real miracle. But I’ve seen a number of sham miracles. Some were total frauds, others were well-meant but mistaken.

So, can you create such an optical illusion on demand? Or to predict when it happens? If you can - I’d like to see it, if you cannot - wouldn’t it still be a great miracle if someone did (and someone with little training)…?

Also, it is one thing to look for natural explanations first, and a different thing to let the most implausible natural explanation “outrank” the most obvious supernatural explanation. If you do that, you can rule out all miracles, since it is hard to prove that one is not hallucinating “beyond shadow of doubt”.

So what you’re saying is really what he is saying, only that God created the appearance of the sun etc. not some technology apart from God. Miracles all have more than appearance, they have physicality and they have more than that, they have something in them that’s just unmistakably, God! In Mark,ch.5vss.34-44 when the lord multiplied the loaves and the fishes, it was real just like the few he multiplied them from, and the people ate and they were filled. In Mt.ch.8,vss.23-27, they were in the boat and a terrible storm came up and they awoke Him and He rebuked the storm, and they asked among each other," Who is this that commands the wind and the sea and they obey him?" It was all very real,wasn’t it? not just appearance, but real. So the miracle of the sun which was designed by Mary which we’re forgetting, had to be in all ways real. It was something designed to move the whole world, away from evil and back toward God.

So, when St. Paul (Saul at that moment) saw the light, heard the voice and ended up blinded, was that a miracle in your opinion…? The light was not seen by his companions.

 

[brumano]

The thing is, the whole world did not experience this phenomena, therefore it was a local event meant to confirm the words of the visionaries. We already believe who Mary is and the powers God has graced her with–it wasn’t to prove this, since it needs no proving beyond the Creeds and the constant teaching of the Church. Rather, it was to confirm Our Lady’s words to the 3 young seers so we would believe her words them and heed them. There was no need for the universe to be disrupted to accomplish that.

I get that, what i’m saying I think the miracle was, is that the sun did move from it’s fixed relation to the Earth and that it did not, at the same time.

 

[Della]

I get that, what i’m saying I think the miracle was, is that the sun did move from it’s fixed relation to the Earth and that it did not, at the same time.

That’s a plausible idea. I know there are the literalists among us who can’t conceive of such a concept, but knowing that the “laws” of physics is the real illusion, I can go along with that explanation as well as any other reasonable one that fits the bill. :yup:

 

[Bonnie]

So, can you create such an optical illusion on demand? Or to predict when it happens? If you can - I’d like to see it, if you cannot - wouldn’t it still be a great miracle if someone did (and someone with little training)…?

Didn’t you read what I wrote? I said it wasn’t a trick by a man. Nor by a woman.

Optical illusions can be natural. Have you ever noticed that the full moon on the horizon looks larger than it is later in the evening? That’s an optical illusion. Another - an object that is backlit by the sun can look much larger than normal. The rainbow is an optical illusion - the bands of color are not solid - they are created by sunllight at a particular angle shining through moisture in the air.

Read up on the subject - you’ll find it fascinating!

 

[Bonnie]

I have been thinking about this topic – believing physical miracles - a lot. It seems that people have been trying to talk me into having faith in more than just God. But I have read and have been told, faith is a gift from God.

If I were to say, Yes! I believe in miracles! (Isn’t that the name of a song? ), several people here would be happy. But it would be a lie, and I would know it and God would know it. So it would serve no purpose.

So I still insist it is not necessary to believe in physical miracles to be a good and faithful Catholic. I know other Catholics who have a firm and lively belief in absolute nonsense – the kind of spiritual nonsense we are warned about (superstition and false apparitions), as well as health nonsense (something else I don’t like). But most people wouldn’t say they are not “real” Catholics because they believe silly things the Church does not teach. But it has been hinted here that I, because I cannot believe in physical miracles, have no faith (or insufficient faith) in God.

If God wants me to believe in miracles, he’s going to have to provide the faith with which to believe. I can’t produce it. And perhaps that would be the miracle, being given the faith to believe in miracles.

Now this conversation can go back to the OP’s original topic – UFOs and aliens.

 

[MPat]

Didn’t you read what I wrote? I said it wasn’t a trick by a man. Nor by a woman.

Optical illusions can be natural. Have you ever noticed that the full moon on the horizon looks larger than it is later in the evening? That’s an optical illusion. Another - an object that is backlit by the sun can look much larger than normal. The rainbow is an optical illusion - the bands of color are not solid - they are created by sunllight at a particular angle shining through moisture in the air.

Read up on the subject - you’ll find it fascinating!

Yes, I have read what you wrote. And I know that optical illusions can be natural. But the point is that the optical illusion still happened when three kids told everyone it would. How did they know?

In principle there are two possible “natural” approaches: 1) they produced the illusion, 2) they predicted the illusion. Now, are those things naturally possible? We can create a rainbow and we can predict when one happens. But can you create or predict anything like what happened in Fatima? For if you cannot, it is still less likely that they could (they were just kids). And thus we still end up needing a supernatural explanation for that prediction. A miracle is different, but it is still a miracle.

I have been thinking about this topic – believing physical miracles - a lot. It seems that people have been trying to talk me into having faith in more than just God. But I have read and have been told, faith is a gift from God.

If I were to say, Yes! I believe in miracles! (Isn’t that the name of a song? ), several people here would be happy. But it would be a lie, and I would know it and God would know it. So it would serve no purpose.

So I still insist it is not necessary to believe in physical miracles to be a good and faithful Catholic. I know other Catholics who have a firm and lively belief in absolute nonsense – the kind of spiritual nonsense we are warned about (superstition and false apparitions), as well as health nonsense (something else I don’t like). But most people wouldn’t say they are not “real” Catholics because they believe silly things the Church does not teach. But it has been hinted here that I, because I cannot believe in physical miracles, have no faith (or insufficient faith) in God.

If God wants me to believe in miracles, he’s going to have to provide the faith with which to believe. I can’t produce it. And perhaps that would be the miracle, being given the faith to believe in miracles.

Now this conversation can go back to the OP’s original topic – UFOs and aliens.

Well, are you trying to believe? Looking for ways to persuade yourself? Praying for help?

 

[laocmo]

…“So you’re saying someone from 100,000 years in the future went back in time to 1917 to pull the Fatima “trick”?”…

No,No. I’m not suggesting time travel, only that some race of beings that was 100,000 years older than us could have an advanced technology that would have been miraculous to people in 1917 and even to us today. Hold a half dollar up to the sun. Even you can make the sun appear to have lost its light. Make it an aluminum pie pan and you and your neighbor will see the effect. Make it quite a bit bigger still and a whole field of people would see it apparently darken. Its called a shadow. On a grand scale the moon eclipsing the sun turns day into night to people over many square miles. No doubt our early ancestors called that a miracle of God and prayed it away. When the moon naturally moved on that enforced their belief that God heard their prayers. And since it worked every time an eclipse happened that proved the power of prayer to them. We call that logical fallacy “post hoc ergo propter hoc”

 

[Joe_5859]

…“So you’re saying someone from 100,000 years in the future went back in time to 1917 to pull the Fatima “trick”?”…

No,No. I’m not suggesting time travel, only that some race of beings that was 100,000 years older than us could have an advanced technology that would have been miraculous to people in 1917 and even to us today. Hold a half dollar up to the sun. Even you can make the sun appear to have lost its light. Make it an aluminum pie pan and you and your neighbor will see the effect. Make it quite a bit bigger still and a whole field of people would see it apparently darken. Its called a shadow. On a grand scale the moon eclipsing the sun turns day into night to people over many square miles. No doubt our early ancestors called that a miracle of God and prayed it away. When the moon naturally moved on that enforced their belief that God heard their prayers. And since it worked every time an eclipse happened that proved the power of prayer to them. We call that logical fallacy “post hoc ergo propter hoc”

Okay, not time travel but aliens. Gotcha.



Sorry, I still don’t find that to be a better explanation than a miracle. And it still doesn’t explain things like the stigmata. Was Padre Pio faking it? Did he come up with some elaborate technology to do so? Did aliens travel through the universe and do this to him? Or people time travelling? If it’s not a miracle, one of those explanations has to be correct. And none of them seem very plausible to me.

 

[Bonnie]

Well, are you trying to believe? Looking for ways to persuade yourself? Praying for help?

No, I’m not “trying” to believe. No, I’m not trying to “persuade” myself to believe. Yes, I pray daily.

It’s really up to God at this point. It’s been years since I stopped believing in miracles and only one thing has changed - me. And for the better.

 

[Della]

Although no Catholic needs to believe in Fatima or physical miracles, we are bound to believe that the Church has the authority to decide if something is “worthy of belief” or not. We don’t need to look for other explanations once the Church has made this declaration. Such things are meant to be a help to our faith, not a hindrance nor a matter for further speculation. Trying to find exotic reasons why miracles happens is really a waste of time and effort for those that the Church has investigated.

Bonnie, we are to have a healthy skepticism about such things when they have not been investigated by a bishop. That’s right and proper. To say, though that miracles are not possible strays into the area of unbelief which is more dangerous than believing rosaries have turned gold. After all, there’s no real harm in believing such things, but to deny the possibility of miracles is to put restrictions on the power of God and thus deny his ability to be incarnated as a human being or to change water into wine or transform bread and wine into his body and blood. This is not such a good position to hold because it can lead to loss of faith in those things we are bound to believe as Catholics.

 

[Bonnie]

I didn’t say that miracles aren’t possible - if I did, I worded my comment badly. As far as miracles being possible - I’m open to that.

I have stopped expecting miracles in my life, but if God wants to produce one, I’ll accept it. But I won’t accept something mundane, such as finding money in my desk drawer that I forgot about putting there as a miracle (which happened yesterday). I would have looked in that drawer eventually because that’s where I keep my bill-paying stuff, including cash.

As far as Church-approved miracles goes, I was not a witness, I do not personally know any witness, all accounts are years (centuries!) old and often 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th hand. Rather like rumors from a friend of a friend of a friend.

I still see no point in the “miracles” that are so common in today’s news: bleeding or weeping statues, vague “pictures” of Mary (less often, Jesus) in oil, tortillas, window smears, road signs, etc., etc., etc. How can a “miracle” that is best attributed to fraud, accident, or pareidolia be helpful to anyone’s faith?

As for the latest Lourdes miracle - I’m with the abstainer. She was getting treatment and cancers do occasionally go into remission spontaneously.

 

[Della]

I didn’t say that miracles aren’t possible - if I did, I worded my comment badly. As far as miracles being possible - I’m open to that.

Okay.

I have stopped expecting miracles in my life, but if God wants to produce one, I’ll accept it. But I won’t accept something mundane, such as finding money in my desk drawer that I forgot about putting there as a miracle (which happened yesterday). I would have looked in that drawer eventually because that’s where I keep my bill-paying stuff, including cash.

I wouldn’t classify that as a miracle, either, but rather as good luck. Still, there are times when things happen just when we need them to. I see God’s hand in that–not in the formal sense of the word, but as his overarching care for us.

As far as Church-approved miracles goes, I was not a witness, I do not personally know any witness, all accounts are years (centuries!) old and often 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th hand. Rather like rumors from a friend of a friend of a friend.

That’s not how approval of miracles happens. There must be direct witnesses that is documented. This is why the Church downgraded many saints and miracle stories from the distant past–because there was no clear documentation for them.

I still see no point in the “miracles” that are so common in today’s news: bleeding or weeping statues, vague “pictures” of Mary (less often, Jesus) in oil, tortillas, window smears, road signs, etc., etc., etc. How can a “miracle” that is best attributed to fraud, accident, or pareidolia be helpful to anyone’s faith?

Fraud is never to be encouraged, of course, but if someone gets a blessing from some odd occurrence that makes them turn their hearts and minds to God, who am I to object?

As for the latest Lourdes miracle - I’m with the abstainer. She was getting treatment and cancers do occasionally go into remission spontaneously.

Of course, it’s not up to any of us to decide the matter. If a miracle has been approved by the bishop, it was fully investigated with all factors taken into account. There’s no need to wonder further about it, if that’s the case.