Questioning miracles?

[brumano]

So, when St. Paul (Saul at that moment) saw the light, heard the voice and ended up blinded, was that a miracle in your opinion…? The light was not seen by his companions.

Sure it was because we certainly accept the word of St.Paul as honest, and accurate. There’s so many things about miracles that really remain baffling though; you’re reading Actsch.9,vs.7 I take it when you say his companions did not see the light. If we go to Actsch.22, St. Paul gives his first person account of what took place and in vs.9 he says my companions saw the light but did not hear the voice of the one who spoke to me. If we kind of grind both of them together we can only be sure that his companions were struck down also but did not see the person who spoke to Saul, so there’s no calling the event into question because of what the companions did or did not experience.

 

[MPat]

Sure it was because we certainly accept the word of St.Paul as honest, and accurate. There’s so many things about miracles that really remain baffling though; you’re reading Actsch.9,vs.7 I take it when you say his companions did not see the light. If we go to Actsch.22, St. Paul gives his first person account of what took place and in vs.9 he says my companions saw the light but did not hear the voice of the one who spoke to me. If we kind of grind both of them together we can only be sure that his companions were struck down also but did not see the person who spoke to Saul, so there’s no calling the event into question because of what the companions did or did not experience.

I did not ask if you believe that the event really happened (I assumed that you did; otherwise my “counterexample” would fail). I asked if you consider the event a miracle, for I suspect that you might be using the word “miracle” in a different way.

Anyway, if that is not sufficiently clear example of a supernatural event that produced appearances and not something “physical” (given that you have claimed that such miracles do not happen, or - perhaps - that they are not to be called “miracles”), what about the vision of St. Peter, where he was asked to eat? It seems clear that the “vision” must be “appearance based”. Do you consider it a miracle, or would you classify it differently?

 

[laocmo]

After I retired and had time to devote to reading ancient history, one of my favorite topics, I was somewhat disturbed to read translations of ancient Indian and Tibetan manuscripts in which there are hundreds of accounts of various holy men, yogis, gurus, (they are called by a variety of names) who routinely did miraculous things. There are accounts of events a thousand or more years before Jesus, that make his miracles seem routine. They calmed the waters, called down storms, cured the sick, multiplied food to feed several, drove out evil spirits, there is even an account of the raising of the dead. One famous master was witnessed to routinely be in several places far from his home, seen by many while never leaving home. Padre Pio is said to have had that ability. The point is, we who have had traditional Christian training have assumed ours is the correct path. All the miracles attributed to our ancient saints have strengthened this belief. Yet history shows that the Indians and Tibetans have as much right to assume that as we do. We are in no way unique in regard to miracles. Read some ancient histories and you will come to the same conclusion. A good place to start is with “Autobiography of a Yogi” In it you will find references to many other ancient texts of great interest.

 

[mikekle]

I think it takes a whole lot more faith to believe in UFOs and aliens than it does to believe in God!

You would probably enjoy “Project L.U.C.I.F.E.R and the Vatican’s astonishing plan for the arrival of an alien savior.” I found it in our public library, tried to read it, but I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry at the inanity in it. And that was just in the first chapter!

Actually it is the opposite, as there is a whole lot more evidence of extraterrestrial beings visiting us here on earth than evidence of the bible being accurate/God in our world today, Im referring to the highly credible reports from military personnel, scientists and many others that do not blindly believe in things like this. There are thousands of sightings each and everyday around the world, sure the majority are probably mis-IDs of regular aircraft, or hoaxes, but Im sure small percentage are true aliens crafts, even if one or two are real, this is life changing for every person living today!!! I can provide a link if you want that show statements regarding UFOs/extraterrestrials from many high ranking people from history up to today, there is so much out there, we would be shocked to find out the actual truth!

 

[brumano]

I did not ask if you believe that the event really happened (I assumed that you did; otherwise my “counterexample” would fail). I asked if you consider the event a miracle, for I suspect that you might be using the word “miracle” in a different way.

Anyway, if that is not sufficiently clear example of a supernatural event that produced appearances and not something “physical” (given that you have claimed that such miracles do not happen, or - perhaps - that they are not to be called “miracles”), what about the vision of St. Peter, where he was asked to eat? It seems clear that the “vision” must be “appearance based”. Do you consider it a miracle, or would you classify it differently?

I was following in the context of the thread with use to the word miracle as opposed to the suggested possibility of appearance only; I would guess, of a miracle. Are there miracles or manifestaions of the supernatural that are more appearance than tangible or measureable affects? sure, like the apparitions of The Blessed Virgin Mary, but Mary is really there; if it really is authentic that is. So there’s always something more than just appearance, because appearance only could be illusory; anyone can visualize.

Using the example you suggested, if you follow St.Paul through the miracle of his conversion, the blinding light stayed with him until he was lead to Damascus and Ananias was directed to the house of Judas on the street called straight and was able to restore his sight, and as we read in Actsch.9 in vs.18 that “things like scales fell from his eyes.”

the vision of St.Peter to eat what he previously was not allowed to eat had tremendous significance for Christianity; it was given to him at a time when he was engrossed with the controversey over whether the Gentiles could be baptized, and baptized without undergoing circumcision which would have placed them under the Mosaic law. the vision is of food substances that are real and are routinely eaten by the gentiles. Yes, it’s a miracle, it was supernatural not just an ordinary dream. The physical proof is the baptism of the gentiles, the gentiles themselves; us.

i don’t recall claiming some kinds of miracles don’t happen.

 

[Geo17]

After I retired and had time to devote to reading ancient history, one of my favorite topics, I was somewhat disturbed to read translations of ancient Indian and Tibetan manuscripts in which there are hundreds of accounts of various holy men, yogis, gurus, (they are called by a variety of names) who routinely did miraculous things. There are accounts of events a thousand or more years before Jesus, that make his miracles seem routine. They calmed the waters, called down storms, cured the sick, multiplied food to feed several, drove out evil spirits, there is even an account of the raising of the dead. One famous master was witnessed to routinely be in several places far from his home, seen by many while never leaving home. Padre Pio is said to have had that ability. The point is, we who have had traditional Christian training have assumed ours is the correct path. All the miracles attributed to our ancient saints have strengthened this belief. Yet history shows that the Indians and Tibetans have as much right to assume that as we do. We are in no way unique in regard to miracles. Read some ancient histories and you will come to the same conclusion. A good place to start is with “Autobiography of a Yogi” In it you will find references to many other ancient texts of great interest.

Jesus said we shall know them by their fruit. I have a cousin I grew up with like a twin brother. He was blessed with a wife, 2 sons, some very good friends, enough money to be comfortable, and even his own business. And then about 30 years ago he got an unhealthy interest in all this stuff. He found a guru who eventually married his sister and booted him out. He quit working and lost his business to pursue these powers. He lost his wife, confused his sons who are now agnostic, even though we Baptized them. He lost everything to pursue these extra-human powers. He never attained 1 of them. Today he talks like a psychotic person in a nut house. He hasn’t worked in over 20 years and gets people to support him. But for the last 10 years he lives with and off his mother who is 86. Is this a Godly man? He still believes all this stuff, and he’s counting on the friendly aliens showing up and rescuing him from the poverty he will face if his mother dies first. He’s always angry, cusses like a street whore, and if someone mentions the name Jesus Christ to him, he goes into a rage. Especially at me when I say I believe Jesus died for my sins. And he grew up Catholic just like me. But he wanted to t be able to do all the things you said here.

I don’t have an answer for you laocmo, but if God wanted us to have those abilities we’d all have them. Or perhaps God gives them to a few people as a gift. My cousin was given all the things I told you. Those were all gifts from God too. I know that because I wasn’t given any of them. Maybe I’m like the ancient Levites. God’s gift to me was Himself. I hope.

Be careful with this stuff.

 

[brumano]

After I retired and had time to devote to reading ancient history, one of my favorite topics, I was somewhat disturbed to read translations of ancient Indian and Tibetan manuscripts in which there are hundreds of accounts of various holy men, yogis, gurus, (they are called by a variety of names) who routinely did miraculous things. There are accounts of events a thousand or more years before Jesus, that make his miracles seem routine. They calmed the waters, called down storms, cured the sick, multiplied food to feed several, drove out evil spirits, there is even an account of the raising of the dead. One famous master was witnessed to routinely be in several places far from his home, seen by many while never leaving home. Padre Pio is said to have had that ability. The point is, we who have had traditional Christian training have assumed ours is the correct path. All the miracles attributed to our ancient saints have strengthened this belief. Yet history shows that the Indians and Tibetans have as much right to assume that as we do.

We are in no way unique in regard to miracles. Read some ancient histories and you will come to the same conclusion.

That may be in one sense since God is the source of all true miracles and God is the Father and Creator of all who ever lived, if He did wonders amongst all those people that’s ceratinly within His power and His will. However, just as certain proposed miracles that have surfaced in Christian literature can more likely be attributed to the art of hagiography, so also other spiritualism could lend itself more or less to the fabrication of supernatural experiences and events which if examined more closely, if it were possible, would be deemed as being of human origin only. Certain other religious spiritualities in fact depend almost totally on Mysticism and have Transcendentalism as the prime activator of their religious beliefs. Obviously, pure shamanism, occultism, polytheism, the list would go on and on, are not surprisingly replete with supernatural occurences of every sort, but this is where the uniqueness of the miracles in Christianity standout. The miracles always have a faith reason, or a meaning that is above or deeper than the miracle itself, and we also have that verification process in the Church which even if it is not applied to most of the reported occurences, is taught to the believers as part of their perspective in logic when hearing of something, possibly miraculous. The reality of miracles notwithstanding, the Catholic is taught to stand first and lastly upon the truth of God and his faith in it.

 

[MPat]

I was following in the context of the thread with use to the word miracle as opposed to the suggested possibility of appearance only; I would guess, of a miracle. Are there miracles or manifestaions of the supernatural that are more appearance than tangible or measureable affects? sure, like the apparitions of The Blessed Virgin Mary, but Mary is really there; if it really is authentic that is. So there’s always something more than just appearance, because appearance only could be illusory; anyone can visualize.

Using the example you suggested, if you follow St.Paul through the miracle of his conversion, the blinding light stayed with him until he was lead to Damascus and Ananias was directed to the house of Judas on the street called straight and was able to restore his sight, and as we read in Actsch.9 in vs.18 that “things like scales fell from his eyes.”

the vision of St.Peter to eat what he previously was not allowed to eat had tremendous significance for Christianity; it was given to him at a time when he was engrossed with the controversey over whether the Gentiles could be baptized, and baptized without undergoing circumcision which would have placed them under the Mosaic law. the vision is of food substances that are real and are routinely eaten by the gentiles. Yes, it’s a miracle, it was supernatural not just an ordinary dream. The physical proof is the baptism of the gentiles, the gentiles themselves; us.

i don’t recall claiming some kinds of miracles don’t happen.

If you were not trying to say that “appearance only” miracles (for example, visions) do not happen, then I must have misunderstood what you were trying to say in this post:

So what you’re saying is really what he is saying, only that God created the appearance of the sun etc. not some technology apart from God. Miracles all have more than appearance, they have physicality and they have more than that, they have something in them that’s just unmistakably, God! In Mark,ch.5vss.34-44 when the lord multiplied the loaves and the fishes, it was real just like the few he multiplied them from, and the people ate and they were filled. In Mt.ch.8,vss.23-27, they were in the boat and a terrible storm came up and they awoke Him and He rebuked the storm, and they asked among each other," Who is this that commands the wind and the sea and they obey him?" It was all very real,wasn’t it? not just appearance, but real. So the miracle of the sun which was designed by Mary which we’re forgetting, had to be in all ways real. It was something designed to move the whole world, away from evil and back toward God.

Looking at what you wrote, perhaps a different guess will be correct: do you count miracle as not “appearance only” if it has a real effect (for example, conversion)? That would solve everything, but I don’t see how such classification is useful…

 

[brumano]

If you were not trying to say that “appearance only” miracles (for example, visions) do not happen, then I must have misunderstood what you were trying to say in this post:

I’m trying to think of any that I’ve heard of that don’t have more than a visual part, the one in Knock, Ireland keeps coming up as a possibility but I don’t know if it was investigated completely and I don’t know if there are some other parts of it that are more than just seeing. (of the Blessed Virgin Mary and St. Joseph). What might be getting mixed up, is that the word appearance can be used saying that the appearance of something was made; that’s the subject of the thread, or it can be used to mean that something or someone supernatural did appear. Come to think of it I do know of one where there was a vision only, but it’s personal, but I did say in the last that if it is Mary, it’s really her.

Looking at what you wrote, perhaps a different guess will be correct: do you count miracle as not “appearance only” if it has a real effect (for example, conversion)? That would solve everything, but I don’t see how such classification is useful…

Interesting question, wouldn’t there have to be something or something else that confirms it? Yeah, I think so and the conversion miracles are the best ones. Wasn’t Fatima really a conversion miracle of it’s kind?