Questioning the Catholic Church

[Samuel63]

Here is a new order in the USA that is bringing the real faith. They have a retreat coming up in late August. I hope it is in your neighborhood.

mileschristi.org/en/activities/spiritual-exercises.php?id=41

I have been growing in the faith with Miles Christi for 1.5 years now. They are fantastic.

Archbishop Fulton Sheen once prophecied we would be a nation receiving missionaries from the outside, and very soon. How right he was.

 

[fred_conty]

Hi,
Purgatory and indulgences go together. Each give sense to the other.
They are brother and sister and purgatory is the first.
So I would like to appeal to your common knowledge of people to explain
purgatory.

Let’s say I know two people who are 47. One of them is a very nice
good person and a christian who strives to live their faith. The second
person is not nice, serial killer. According to Jesus, we are bound to
love our enemies and to pray for them. And I would like to add,
especially to pray for them at the moment of death.
Both are in their final hour. And I pray that the killer be forgiven by
Jesus one more time so he may enter heaven. Let us say that
both die and both go to heaven. Is that the end of the story?
They simply both go to heaven? And that is it? Both are equal and
are on the same terms? No difference?

The church thinks there is a difference. One makes a pit stop first, to clean up.
I think that is more reasonable peering thru the eyes of justice.

How many people do we know that have died that were perfect angels? Almost
everyone has their own hidden adjendas that are kept secret.

How about our common everyday sense with our own children. If they did something
bad and they said to you as a father, “well dad, you paid for everything, that means
you’ve covered me and I don’t have to pay a thing.” I wonder what a father would do
with that statement. .

I am thankful to the church for making it known to me for now I can prepare for it as
St. James said, “charity covers a multitude of sin.” That means I can cover my debt by
alms, prayer, and penance now which is easier than waiting for that which is harder.
It is great to be a catholic.

 

[Heuchler]

This is one of Luther’s teachings isn’t it? We are not a pile of trash that God overlooks. We are through his efforts and through the Church to become sons of God. We are called to be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect. This doesn’t sound like an adress to a worthless people. Yes, God doesn’t need us, but He wants us. If He didn’t want us, He wouldn’t have died for us. And God doesn’t die for wretched miserable black harted sinners with no possibility of virtue.

Now the Cross made retribution for our sins and opened up our way to God and Heaven, Confession removes our sins yet there is still the stain and inclination toward this sin. To fight this we have indulgences which help to remove the stain and remove this inclination.

And yes, there are some who can’t have even a little bit of alcohol. My mother is on a combination of medicines that make it where she can’t have any at all without making her sick.

 

[LilyM]

WM, there is a great passage in one of St Paul’s epistles where he says these or extremely similar words: “I rejoice in my sufferings for through them I make up in my own body what is lacking in Christ’s passion”.

It’s an odd idea, isn’t it, that anything can be lacking on Christ’s passion. Yet that is what Paul says. What is lacking, of course, is a full understanding of the fact that as Christ’s body our sufferings and sacrifices, and our good deeds such as indulgences, are actually His.

This being the case, we can hinder the work of His passion, or at least leave something lacking, by neglecting opportunities to offer up indulgences and other good deeds, as well as our sufferings, in union with Him.

 

[workingman]

Hi,
Purgatory and indulgences go together. Each give sense to the other.
They are brother and sister and purgatory is the first.
So I would like to appeal to your common knowledge of people to explain
purgatory.

Let’s say I know two people who are 47. One of them is a very nice
good person and a christian who strives to live their faith. The second
person is not nice, serial killer. According to Jesus, we are bound to
love our enemies and to pray for them. And I would like to add,
especially to pray for them at the moment of death.
Both are in their final hour. And I pray that the killer be forgiven by
Jesus one more time so he may enter heaven. Let us say that
both die and both go to heaven. Is that the end of the story?
They simply both go to heaven? And that is it? Both are equal and
are on the same terms? No difference?

The church thinks there is a difference. One makes a pit stop first, to clean up.
I think that is more reasonable peering thru the eyes of justice.

How many people do we know that have died that were perfect angels? Almost
everyone has their own hidden adjendas that are kept secret.

How about our common everyday sense with our own children. If they did something
bad and they said to you as a father, “well dad, you paid for everything, that means
you’ve covered me and I don’t have to pay a thing.” I wonder what a father would do
with that statement. .

I am thankful to the church for making it known to me for now I can prepare for it as
St. James said, “charity covers a multitude of sin.” That means I can cover my debt by
alms, prayer, and penance now which is easier than waiting for that which is harder.
It is great to be a catholic.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm You have given me something to ponder.

 

[workingman]

This is one of Luther’s teachings isn’t it? We are not a pile of trash that God overlooks. We are through his efforts and through the Church to become sons of God. We are called to be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect. This doesn’t sound like an adress to a worthless people. Yes, God doesn’t need us, but He wants us. If He didn’t want us, He wouldn’t have died for us. And God doesn’t die for wretched miserable black harted sinners with no possibility of virtue.

Now the Cross made retribution for our sins and opened up our way to God and Heaven, Confession removes our sins yet there is still the stain and inclination toward this sin. To fight this we have indulgences which help to remove the stain and remove this inclination.

And yes, there are some who can’t have even a little bit of alcohol. My mother is on a combination of medicines that make it where she can’t have any at all without making her sick.

It was a Luther quote yes. After this time I still see some Lutheran theology as valid. It does not mean that God does not want us. God absolutly wants us. That I agree with. God does die for the black hearted sinner though. If He did not we would be doomed. There is virtue but it is give us from God is it not?

So after the absolution there is still a mark? I can’t say I have ever heard it explained that way.

I’m sorry if I came across as insensitive. I will not quible the with it. My apologies.

 

[workingman]

WM, there is a great passage in one of St Paul’s epistles where he says these or extremely similar words: “I rejoice in my sufferings for through them I make up in my own body what is lacking in Christ’s passion”.

It’s an odd idea, isn’t it, that anything can be lacking on Christ’s passion. Yet that is what Paul says. What is lacking, of course, is a full understanding of the fact that as Christ’s body our sufferings and sacrifices, and our good deeds such as indulgences, are actually His.

This being the case, we can hinder the work of His passion, or at least leave something lacking, by neglecting opportunities to offer up indulgences and other good deeds, as well as our sufferings, in union with Him.

What Epistle is it in. I could not find it. It is a odd idea. Considering it was the perfect sacrifice for our sins. So how does one offer up a indulgence? You have given me something to think on.

 

[pablope]

.

I have to find the part of Revelations being talked about as it was not mentioned. This will take further reading for me.

We have free will to a point. I see it as more of a muted will. It depends on how one defines free will.

The part or Revelations being mentioned here is Rev chapter 4 to 8, where the angels/saints bring prayers to God, in the form of incense.

Let me ask you this first…those in heaven, are they alive or dead?

Also, from this verse in Mark (there is also a similar verse in Matthew),

For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Those who get into heaven, the saints, get the attributes of angels. What do you think are the attributes of angels? They do God’s bidding, hear our prayers, pray for us…so the same with those in heaven.

In James, it is also stated that the prayer of a righteous man avails much. So, do you think those in heaven are righteous, or rather, are more righteous than us here on earth, since they have been perfected to enter heave, for as Rev (22 or 21) states, nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

 

[Heuchler]

We aren’t as terrible as Luther puts us up to be. God wouldn’t die for us unless we were capable of Heaven. To reach Heaven, you can’t be a terrible sinner. Yes, God shows us how to be virtuous but we have to use our free will and actually do it.

The mark thing is something that I have heard to explain it. The Catechism describes it as the double consequence of sin. There is the fact that sin can seperate us from God. There is also the consequence that this creates an attatchemnt to sinful things. This attachment can either be removed through indulgences or purgatory.

And its fine. If I didn’t actually know of a case, I would have reacted in the same way.

 

[pablope]

For me that is a moot point. It is the blood of Christ.

I do not have to find the part of Revelations being talked about as it was not mentioned. This will take further reading for me.

t depends on how one defines free will.

Here is a first hand account of the intercession of saints…stgemmagalgani.com/2009/05/exorcisms-intercession-of-st-gemma.html

 

[7_Sorrows]

i converted from the episcopal church a little over 3 years ago. it is a journey.
i took about 10 years of researching, studying and contemplating the move. i converted alone so i didn’t need to worry about a spouse and children.
it was a little easier for me, because there was so much taking place within the episcopal church that i did not approve of and it was causing great division. i wanted to belong to the Catholic church because of the Pope and the Magesterium and i agreed with the doctrines and teachings of the Catholic church.
all of these other branches of protestant churches have different denominations - liberal, moderate and conservative. some accept female pastors and priests, some have a liberal view of homosexuality and same sex marriage, etc.
some are pro-choice.
i wanted to be Catholic because i feel the Catholic church will do its best to preserve moral values and to try steer our society and culture into living the life God wants us to live and not to live our lives according to how hollywood or liberal politicians are trying to tell us how we should live our lives.
i see our world on a self-destructive path and even though there are many well meaning
pastors, preachers and priests out there - they don’t have someone like the Pope to lead and guide. the archbishop of canterbury was very ineffective in guiding the anglican and episcopal church. i am sure there are divisions within the lutheran church also.
Catholics also are liberal and conservative, but we come together for the Holy Eucharist and we know that we have the Pope and the Magesterium to guide us on our Catholic journey. you have to let go of your protestant thinking and begin thinking like a Catholic.
when i was learning a foreign language, i was told to begin thinking in the language not to try to translate my thoughts word for word from english into the foreign language. it is going to take time. it is not an easy road to follow being Catholic. the Church is attacked weekly in the media. it is not a feel good religion like so many of the protestant churches today. i am not saying that the Catholic church is perfect or without problems. it is not.

 

[LilyM]

What Epistle is it in. I could not find it. It is a odd idea. Considering it was the perfect sacrifice for our sins. So how does one offer up a indulgence? You have given me something to think on.

Sorry I couldn’t look up the verse earlier. It’s Colossians 1:24: “I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and fill up on my part that which is lacking in the afflictions (sufferings) of Christ in my flesh” (ASV)

You offer an indulgence in the same way you offer any prayer or act to God, by consciously saying the prayer to Him or doing the act for His sake.

 

[zz912]

I forgot to mention in my reply, don’t forget the story of David confsessing to the prophet his sin. The prophet proclaims that the sin is forgiven. But there is punishment still.

So the penalty is sometimes still needed even after forgiveness. You are going to make it to Heaven, but you still have some temporal punishment and attachment to sin to work out. Indulgences work them out here on earth, and Purgatory after death before Heaven.

 

[pablope]

I forgot to mention in my reply, don’t forget the story of David confsessing to the prophet his sin. The prophet proclaims that the sin is forgiven. But there is punishment still.

So the penalty is sometimes still needed even after forgiveness. You are going to make it to Heaven, but you still have some temporal punishment and attachment to sin to work out. Indulgences work them out here on earth, and Purgatory after death before Heaven.

This is 2Sam12…and it is a beautiful passage of how one sees his transgression, condemns himself and confesses…and the absolution. Please read the whole chapter, but here is a part of it:

5
David grew very angry with that man and said to Nathan: “As the LORD lives, the man who has done this merits death!
6
He shall restore the ewe lamb fourfold because he has done this and has had no pity.”
7
Then Nathan said to David: “You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ‘I anointed you king of Israel. I rescued you from the hand of Saul.
8
I gave you your lord’s house and your lord’s wives for your own. I gave you the house of Israel and of Judah. And if this were not enough, I could count up for you still more.
9
Why have you spurned the LORD and done evil in his sight? You have cut down Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you took his wife as your own, and him you killed with the sword of the Ammonites.
10
Now, therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised me and have taken the wife of Uriah to be your wife.’
11
Thus says the LORD: ‘I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight.
12
You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.’”
13
Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan answered David: "The LORD on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die.

 

[mark_a]

No I was LCMS.

Ok. But not really all that similar in the morals teachings, no?

 

[workingman]

Ok. But not really all that similar in the morals teachings, no?

Fairly similar. Like I said though. I was following Catholic moral teachings while part of the LCMS. In a unfunny irony I was accused of being to Catholic while in the LCMS. Alot of stuff they considered adiaphora. I am so tired of feeling like a tug o war is being plaid with me. Is it bad when you sit and debait your self from bolth sides of the fence?

 

[workingman]

Here is a new order in the USA that is bringing the real faith. They have a retreat coming up in late August. I hope it is in your neighborhood.

mileschristi.org/en/activities/spiritual-exercises.php?id=41

I have been growing in the faith with Miles Christi for 1.5 years now. They are fantastic.

Archbishop Fulton Sheen once prophecied we would be a nation receiving missionaries from the outside, and very soon. How right he was.

Thank you for this link. They are going to be about 30min away in Aug. I’m hoping to be able to make it. Seems like something I could really use.

 

[gtrenewed]

Sorry I couldn’t look up the verse earlier. It’s Colossians 1:24: “I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and fill up on my part that which is lacking in the afflictions (sufferings) of Christ in my flesh” (ASV)

You offer an indulgence in the same way you offer any prayer or act to God, by consciously saying the prayer to Him or doing the act for His sake.

To say that Paul said that the afflictions of Christ were lacking is taking this verse out of context.

It is not that Christ lacked affictions, it is that His Body on earth, the church, will receive what Christ received and Paul is saying that the afflictions he was receiving was his part of those afflictions lacking in the church.

Jesus said that we are not above the master so if He received affliction, we certainly would as well. Not each one of us will receive all He did but as part of His Body, the church, our individual affliction is added in and provides what is lacking in the Body, the church.

The NASB says it this way, Col 1:24, “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.”

These afflictions are not self induced but received outwardly. Self induced affliction is a spiritual exercise for better discipline and does not probably apply here. Christs’ afflictions were not because He was sinful but because He was sinless, righteous. The church, His Body, is afflicted because we have His righteousness and the world needs to lash out at us as a whole like they did Christ.

 

[workingman]

Well as I promised I started writing some of my sticking points. Links below.

theworkingmansthoughts.wordpress.com/2011/08/01/transubstantiation/

theworkingmansthoughts.wordpress.com/2011/08/02/communing-under-one-species/

 

[CompSciGuy]

Indulgences are acts that bring us closer to God and show that we are sorry for what we did. These are things that help us to become holier people and in turn help us to reach Heaven faster (in a sense).

If this is what indulgences are then that’s a great thing… Indulgences still have bothered me quite a bit… I was wondering though because I’ve seen indulgences that have little notes attached to them saying “say this prayer and get 300 days out of purgatory.” I never could stomach these sort of notes. It just makes salvation seem like something you buy in a grocery market with coupons, etc. Is it ok to ignore these sort of things and just see indulgences in the way you described them?