Questioning the Catholic Church

[workingman]

If you go to www.scripturecatholic.com all your questions will be answered.

Thank you for the link. Yes there is some good info there.

 

[workingman]

Incomplete;8202008]To trust your shepherd is one thing, but to know that you are hearing Him properly is another. What guidance do you use to know you are following His lead? For me, I am never sure. I can’t just go by feelings; satan can cause feelings. I am glad you are questioning rather than just jumping ship, and I can see by some of your responses that you truly are looking for answers.

Well one can test the spirit to see if it from God 1John 4:1-6. One can never be completely sure. One thing is for certain if you stray from God’s path he will come and find you.

We follow both faith and logic. If not, we could believe in the tooth fairy. If you followed only faith, you wouldn’t be asking questions. Questions deal with logic.

No belief in God only requires faith. The belief He died on the cross for us requires only faith. Now theology requires logic.

What is the difference between interpretation and understanding? You need context in either case. I’m not sure what you’re talking about in saying they are different.

Interpreting can be giving your own meaning to something. Understand is old fashon comprehension. Lets try a example so I can demonstrate. I understand the sun rises in the east. Now if I want to interpret the same sentance - I understand the sun rises in the east becuase a chariot pulls it acrost the sky.

Did I clear it up at all?

The passage I am referring to is 2 Peter 3:16. It’s referring to some of Paul’s letters and says “In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.”

Yes it does but it is also the final address on the day of the Lord coming.

Maybe disagreements are because not al Scripture is easy to understand. Look at these threads; can you honestly say you think that everyone who sees some Scripture as meaning different things from you disagrees because they want Christ to conform to their teachings? I know you don’t actually feel that way, so there has to be some other reason for disagreements. Considering Scripture itself says it can be difficult, I’d opt for that as a reason.

I guess thinking about it I think we have to say bolth are reasons for the threads as you point out.

 

[Incomplete]

Well one can test the spirit to see if it from God 1John 4:1-6. One can never be completely sure. One thing is for certain if you stray from God’s path he will come and find you.

How do you personally test, especially when it’s something as important as what Church He is leading you to?

No belief in God only requires faith. The belief He died on the cross for us requires only faith. Now theology requires logic.

When you are questioning the Church, then, is it not by logic rather than faith? Because this thread is about your initial questions, not about the faith of belief. I would argue, though, that faith should require some logic. Otherwise, as I said earlier, we could believe in the tooth fairy just as easily as in God.

Interpreting can be giving your own meaning to something. Understand is old fashon comprehension. Lets try a example so I can demonstrate. I understand the sun rises in the east. Now if I want to interpret the same sentance - I understand the sun rises in the east becuase a chariot pulls it acrost the sky.

I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t see how this applies to Scripture. Understanding the sun rises in the East is not about understanding. It’s about observation. You see it, period. The rest of that example is explanation, not necessarily interpretation.

So how would you apply understanding vs interpretation to knowing what Scripture passages mean? You can’t just observe them.

I ask this because your questions about Church teachings are about Scripture interpretation. You think some passages say one thing, the Church sees another.

Yes it does but it is also the final address on the day of the Lord coming.

The fact that some of the passage is about being prepared does not negate that it is also saying that some Scripture is difficult. Rather like taking a test in school, know that some is difficult so you can learn it correctly (with the help of your teacher) so you are prepared.

I guess thinking about it I think we have to say bolth are reasons for the threads as you point out.

One thing I really like about you is that you do take the time to think about these things.

 

[workingman]

Incomplete;8206156]How do you personally test, especially when it’s something as important as what Church He is leading you to?

I can not fully answer this for if I could I would not be in questioning of thing. The best answer I can give now is does it in any way shape or form contradict God’s Holy Word.

When you are questioning the Church, then, is it not by logic rather than faith? Because this thread is about your initial questions, not about the faith of belief. I would argue, though, that faith should require some logic. Otherwise, as I said earlier, we could believe in the tooth fairy just as easily as in God.

I guess not from my point of view as flawed as it may be at times. As example I believe Christ died on the cross paying my ransom, I believe that the Eucharist is His Body and His Blood because He says so ect… It does not require logic for that. I do call into question at times the Church theology in terms of deffinition for some things.

As far as reason/logic goes I will quote every Catholic’s favorite heretic Luther.

“Reason is the Devil’s greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil’s appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom… Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism… She would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets.”

—Martin Luther, Works, Erlangen Edition v. 16, pp. 142-148.

“Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but—more frequently than not—struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.”

—Martin Luther, Table Talks in 1569.

I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t see how this applies to Scripture. Understanding the sun rises in the East is not about understanding. It’s about observation. You see it, period. The rest of that example is explanation, not necessarily interpretation
So how would you apply understanding vs interpretation to knowing what Scripture passages mean? You can’t just observe them.

I ask this because your questions about Church teachings are about Scripture interpretation. You think some passages say one thing, the Church sees another.

The fact that some of the passage is about being prepared does not negate that it is also saying that some Scripture is difficult. Rather like taking a test in school, know that some is difficult so you can learn it correctly (with the help of your teacher) so you are prepared.

You are correct bad example. Ya know it originaly made sence when I typed it. It does not make sence at this time though. understanding vs interpretation can be split but it is like spliting hairs. A flawed point on my part. I concede it.

One thing I really like about you is that you do take the time to think about these things

Thank you. And than you for taking the time to banter with me.

 

[Incomplete]

I can not fully answer this for if I could I would not be in questioning of thing. The best answer I can give now is does it in any way shape or form contradict God’s Holy Word.

Yet look at all the different denominations out there, how one church believes something that another believes contradicts God’s Holy Word.

I believe that the Eucharist is His Body and His Blood because He says so ect… It does not require logic for that.

You don’t believe it requires logic, yet many Protestants, just by reading the Bible, will disagree with you. My very close non-denominational friend, a woman who is always striving to grow closer to God, thinks it is clear in the Bible that Eucharist is just a symbol. I don’t understand how she can read the Bible and believe that, but she does.

Interesting quotes by Luther, the man who thought he could tell just by reading which books belonged in the Bible, which were different from what the Church had considered Scripture for centuries.

Why do you agree with Luther on this?

The reason I ask all of this…

So many people think that understanding Scripture is easy. The basic story, yes, I understand that. But when it comes to things like whether or not the Eucharist is what Catholics say it is, there is so much disagreement. Do we need Baptism for salvation? Again, there is disagreement. That is true on many, many issues.

For me, I know I can’t trust my own understanding. I know this: I am not wise enough to have all the answers. Not by a long shot. Where I disagree with my Christian friends, who can know who is right?

So I use logic and reason. I reason that Christ didn’t start a Church with false teachings. He didn’t leave us in error until the reformation. That means I need to look for a church that has been around that long without changing doctrine.

When I have difficulty with doctrine, I have to be humble enough to realize that I can be wrong. The question is who do I trust more, my own understanding, or that of a Church started by Jesus? Can I be wrong? If I can, then maybe in the areas I question, maybe the Church is correct. It seems more likely to me that the church Jesus started is correct than it is that a church started during the Reformation is correct, and certainly more likely that His church is correct than that I am correct.

Thank you. And than you for taking the time to banter with me.

You’re gracious, which makes it fun. By the way, I’m not always sure how I come across. Just know that if I ever sound not-so-gracious, it’s not how I mean things.

 

[copperblade]

I’ve been skimming through the thread trying to find the main thing that bothers you. I can’t seem to figure it out. Frankly, I think the best thing that would help you and make you feel comfortable in not just possibly staying Catholic but knowing where your heart is, is to just read up on the Church Fathers. If you would just go back a little further than Luther, to some of the philosophies of the Church Fathers, you’d probably start to know what to do. In particular read up on the issues that the Church dealt with in the early years. You don’t need Catholic explanations, just sources which give the facts. Just look up things like Chalcedonian vs non-Chalcedonian churches, the early Church Councils (and later if you want), and look at the various heresies like Arianism that cropped up at the time. None of it should be a point of contention for you, but it should start to help you build an instinct about how the original Christian community thought and believed.

 

[workingman]

Incomplete;8206459]Yet look at all the different denominations out there, how one church believes something that another believes contradicts God’s Holy Word.

Yes I know its that whole reason thing. It also directly ties to man’s inerant sinful nature. We don’t want to bend to God’s will. We wan’t God to bend to ours. A sad state of affairs

You don’t believe it requires logic, yet many Protestants, just by reading the Bible, will disagree with you. My very close non-denominational friend, a woman who is always striving to grow closer to God, thinks it is clear in the Bible that Eucharist is just a symbol. I don’t understand how she can read the Bible and believe that, but she does.

I reguards to what is above it is the whole human reason. Human reason is rotten our will is dirty as good as we want our intentions to be. All I have to say about the Eucharist can be done in one word straight from the Scriptures. The word is IS! It only has one meaning.

Interesting quotes by Luther, the man who thought he could tell just by reading which books belonged in the Bible, which were different from what the Church had considered Scripture for centuries.

Why do you agree with Luther on this?

Well to keep it as simple as possible the Doctorin of Original Sin to begin with. We are all born with it. Baptism cleanses us but our nature is always going to be suseptable to sin. That makes our logic/reason suseptable to sin.

Have you ever read Luthers Bondage of the Will? Even if you don’t like the man and view him as a heritic his writings are quite interesting. Not everything Luther taught went against RCC doctrine. Moste of His catechatical teachings are simpler and in line with the RCC.

"Reason is what got us into the split starting with the great schism and the reformation.

The reason I ask all of this…

So many people think that understanding Scripture is easy. The basic story, yes, I understand that. But when it comes to things like whether or not the Eucharist is what Catholics say it is, there is so much disagreement. Do we need Baptism for salvation? Again, there is disagreement. That is true on many, many issues.

For me, I know I can’t trust my own understanding. I know this: I am not wise enough to have all the answers. Not by a long shot. Where I disagree with my Christian friends, who can know who is right?

So I use logic and reason. I reason that Christ didn’t start a Church with false teachings. He didn’t leave us in error until the reformation. That means I need to look for a church that has been around that long without changing doctrine.

When I have difficulty with doctrine, I have to be humble enough to realize that I can be wrong. The question is who do I trust more, my own understanding, or that of a Church started by Jesus? Can I be wrong? If I can, then maybe in the areas I question, maybe the Church is correct. It seems more likely to me that the church Jesus started is correct than it is that a church started during the Reformation is correct, and certainly more likely that His church is correct than that I am correct.

I would have to agree that Christ would not start a Church with false teachings. The Church in Luthers time did have some problems that had to be corrected (i.e. selling indulgences) Things could of been handled differently but that is speculation and a different thread. I do feel that the Church is a little wishi washi on a issue or two but that is also another thread.

I do try and keep my self humble in my theology study. It can be hard. I get very opinionated at times. Am I a know it all no. Ya know in a twist of irony I was to Catholic when I was a Lutheran and now I am to Lutheran still as a Catholic. It gets to be a bit annoying. I just can’t be a ok I accept it because the Church says so. Nore do I expect it to be taken because I say so. I guess I need to always feed my whore (reason).

You’re gracious, which makes it fun. By the way, I’m not always sure how I come across. Just know that if I ever sound not-so-gracious, it’s not how I mean things.

Thankyou again. Hay we are all human. I can be a real bull in a china closet some times. Just ask my wife or my boss:shrug:

 

[workingman]

I pray fervently that God will give me strength to submit to His will and to His teachings and to His church.

 

[Incomplete]

Yes I know its that whole reason thing. It also directly ties to man’s inerant sinful nature. We don’t want to bend to God’s will. We wan’t God to bend to ours. A sad state of affairs

Except…I do know many, many good Christian people who are trying just as hard as you and I to be who God wants them to be, to obey Him in every waking moment, and we still disagree on things. It’s not as simple as just not wanting to bend to His will. While I agree that can happen, that doesn’t explain differences in teachings.

I reguards to what is above it is the whole human reason. Human reason is rotten our will is dirty as good as we want our intentions to be. All I have to say about the Eucharist can be done in one word straight from the Scriptures. The word is IS! It only has one meaning.

But you’re using reason now.

Yes, it seems very understandable to you (and to me) but not to many Protestants. We se it very clearly. They don’t. Just like Baptism and other issues.

Do you find Revelation an easy book?

Well to keep it as simple as possible the Doctorin of Original Sin to begin with. We are all born with it. Baptism cleanses us but our nature is always going to be suseptable to sin. That makes our logic/reason suseptable to sin.

But God gave us reason and logic, so it can’t be such a bad thing. Sin is about turning away from Him, not about using reason and logic.

I would have to agree that Christ would not start a Church with false teachings. The Church in Luthers time did have some problems that had to be corrected (i.e. selling indulgences)

Yes, the Church was in need of reform. But it wasn’t the teachings of the Church that needed reform, it was the abuses.

Thankyou again. Hay we are all human. I can be a real bull in a china closet some times. Just ask my wife or my boss

You made me laugh. Thanks!

 

[workingman]

Incomplete;8206686]Except…I do know many, many good Christian people who are trying just as hard as you and I to be who God wants them to be, to obey Him in every waking moment, and we still disagree on things. It’s not as simple as just not wanting to bend to His will. While I agree that can happen, that doesn’t explain differences in teachings.

I agree. It is our inherant sinfull nature. I guess that is the best way I can explain it as inadiquate as it is.

But you’re using reason now.

Ya got me

Yes, it seems very understandable to you (and to me) but not to many Protestants. We se it very clearly. They don’t. Just like Baptism and other issues.

I know I have the same discussion with my parents. (mom a lapsed catholic now Baptist along with my step father who is baptist).

Do you find Revelation an easy book?

Well I could cop out and say easy is a relative term but I wont. It is the most mysterious book of the Bible. Some of it is easy but not all of it.

But God gave us reason and logic, so it can’t be such a bad thing. Sin is about turning away from Him, not about using reason and logic.

Yes God did give it to us. In and of it self it is not a bad thing. It boils down to its intent. The best intentions can turn out badly. Sin penatrates everthing we do in our lives. Weather it is us turning from sin to God or sinful desires manipulating our decissions and reason. Once again it comes down to our inherent nature since the the fall of Adam and Eve.

Yes, the Church was in need of reform. But it wasn’t the teachings of the Church that needed reform, it was the abuses.

Completely agree. Though what are your thoughts on other issues that were part of the abuses like relics? Though I spose that is another thread.

 

[workingman]

I’ve been skimming through the thread trying to find the main thing that bothers you. I can’t seem to figure it out. Frankly, I think the best thing that would help you and make you feel comfortable in not just possibly staying Catholic but knowing where your heart is, is to just read up on the Church Fathers. If you would just go back a little further than Luther, to some of the philosophies of the Church Fathers, you’d probably start to know what to do. In particular read up on the issues that the Church dealt with in the early years. You don’t need Catholic explanations, just sources which give the facts. Just look up things like Chalcedonian vs non-Chalcedonian churches, the early Church Councils (and later if you want), and look at the various heresies like Arianism that cropped up at the time. None of it should be a point of contention for you, but it should start to help you build an instinct about how the original Christian community thought and believed.

Thank you for the advise. I will have to do that. My wife will thank you too. You just gave me another excuse to buy more books. Seriously though thank you for a place to go with it. I don’t know why I did not think of it. I guess that is what happens when ones head gets cluttered.

 

[Incomplete]

Well I could cop out and say easy is a relative term but I wont. It is the most mysterious book of the Bible. Some of it is easy but not all of it.

Which shows that not all Scripture is easy. And, like Eucharist, some things you might think are clear that others think just as clearly mean something else.

Yes God did give it to us. In and of it self it is not a bad thing. It boils down to its intent. The best intentions can turn out badly. Sin penatrates everthing we do in our lives. Weather it is us turning from sin to God or sinful desires manipulating our decissions and reason. Once again it comes down to our inherent nature since the the fall of Adam and Eve.

Exactly. It’s not a bad thing. I would argue that it’s our desires that lead to sin, not so much reason. we can use reason to justify our desires, but it’s not really reason that leads us to turn from God. Reason to understand God and His Word so we can follow Him is a good thing.

Completely agree. Though what are your thoughts on other issues that were part of the abuses like relics? Though I spose that is another thread.

You’re right, that would be another thread. In general, though, the Church has had a history of abuses and need for reform. We’ll need it again. That’s what happens when God leaves His Church in the hands of humans. Some of our reformers are now declared saints.

 

[Incomplete]

You just gave me another excuse to buy more books.

Laughing. Now you sound like me!

 

[copperblade]

Thank you for the advise. I will have to do that. My wife will thank you too. You just gave me another excuse to buy more books. Seriously though thank you for a place to go with it. I don’t know why I did not think of it. I guess that is what happens when ones head gets cluttered.

Thanks, I’m honored that you would consider my advice. But I don’t think it even requires that much effort unless you really want to. Even just doing some research online and reading various (hopefully authoritative) sources on the various conflicts, philosophies, and players in the early Church would probably be good.

 

[workingman]

I wish to thank all that have conversed with me in this thread. I got to spend some serious time reflecting, praying, studying, and recieving counceling and spiritual guidance. God called me to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Here I will stay because it is where God wants me. I thank Him for it.

Again thank you all. Please pray for me as I journy in faith as God and His Church place me.

 

[Incomplete]

I am praying.

The thing about questioning, in the end it can make your faith stronger, especially when you are gracious as you have been.