Questioning the Need for Purgatory

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Juxtaposer:
Purgatory is for sanctification and punishment, correct? Since Christ died for us, why do we need to be punished?
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It is more restitution than punishment. “Truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny .” Mt 5:26

If Christ had not died for us they gates of heaven would still be closed to all of us; Purgatory does nothing to diminish that.
 
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rarndt01:
I’m asking for apostolic traditional evidence. My goodness, the fathers quoted them on baptism, the Eucharist, heaven, hell and just about everything under the sun. But none ever quoted them on purgatory. It is not an issue of silence at all. The apostles never held to such a teaching. For if they did, the church fathers would have quoted them, just as they quoted the apostles on all other teachings. There simply is no apostolic traditional evidence for purgatory or that Mary was declared Queen, reigning next to God in heaven. It simply is a false teaching.
Code: 
                                              Ron from Ohio
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It sounds like you are operating under a false premise of FO (Fathers Only) in the same way our Evangelical brethren use Sola Scriptura (Bible Only). :whacky:

Both the Bible and the Fathers of the Church are witnesses of the Church, and then not the only ones, not proof texts. Christ did not say: “Write a book from which all my teachings shall be clearly laid out” nor “Only believe what those who came immediately after the Apostles wrote about and reject everything else as false”, did he.

No, he said: “I will send the Holy Spirit who will lead you into all truth” and “I will establish my Church and the gates of hell shall not stand up against it”. It was to his Church that Christ gave the authority to decide matters of faith and morals, and it is the Church that derives what is truly the teaching of Christ as such matters come up as the centuries go by. The Church doing so started right off the bat in Acts 15 where the early Church held its first Council to decide if circumcision was mandatory for Gentile believers or not. The Law of Moses said it was, but the Church decided otherwise under the new covenant in Christ.

We are to follow what the Church decides on matters of faith and morals because Christ gave the Church the authority to make these decisions, not because we can/cannot find support from any particular source, be it the Bible of the Fathers of the Church.
 
dominosNbiscuts said:
Woa Back! Am I witnessing a real excommunication in progress? I’ve always wondered what it meant to be a ‘senior member’! :eek:

Good question. Does formal and external denial of a Dogma of the faith incur excommunication latæ sententiæ?

Justin

BTW, Ron, yes or no to the dogma…
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Jux,
Chill out will ya? The church has this thing covered.

First, Friar Johannes Tetzel – A fifteenth century right hand man to the pope - declared that: “a soul is released from purgatory and carried to heaven as soon as the money tinkles in the box.”

So, if you’re well heeled, no problem.

Now if you’re a bit short on change just now, a contemporary priest by the name of Fr. Paul O’Sullivan, in an article entitled :“How to avoid Purgatory,”

(see: http://abbey.apana.org.au/theology/Avoidprg.htm)

says this:

God will grant “100 to 300 days or more Indulgence” for a single recitation of a simple, short prayer. Repeating it 1,000 times in a single day (about once per minute that the person is not sleeping) would gain 300,000 days (about 821 years) indulgence.

A single Hail Mary of the Rosary will get a person more than 2,000 days indulgence.

These indulgences can be applied to our own credit, or may be applied to a soul in Purgatory.

In addition to the above Partial Indulgences, there are also Plenary Indulgences which may be obtained during life or at the time of our death. These allow a person to bypass Purgatory completely. "Pope St. Pius X …granted a plenary indulgence at the hour of death to those who say at least after one Holy Communion the following prayer: ‘Eternal Father, from this day forward, I accept with a joyful and resigned heart the death it will please You to send me, with all its pains and sufferings’ "

Frequent “Confession, Communion and daily assistance at Mass” will also lessen one’s time in Purgatory.

So either way Jux, make the ole broken banjo sing, or hit your knees a lot. Then when you die, zingo, you’ll shoot right off to heaven - no pit stops, no poddy breaks or detours due to terrorist threat!

The Lord is your shepherd, You should not fear! :amen:

DB
 
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martino:
It is more restitution than punishment. “Truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny .” Mt 5:26

If Christ had not died for us they gates of heaven would still be closed to all of us; Purgatory does nothing to diminish that.
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That’s exactly what i was getting at, however, I may not have worded it best.
 
If one is Catholic, then the question of when purgatory first shows up in the writings of the Fathers isn’t the issue.
If we are Catholic, we believe the infallible teachings of the Catholic Church.

The Final Purification, or Purgatory
1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. (604) The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: (605)

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. (606)

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”(607) From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.(608) The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them. (609)

604 Cf.-
  • Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304;
  • Council of Trent-
  • (1563): DS 1820;
  • (1547): DS 1580;
  • see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.
605 Cf.-
  • 1 Cor 3:15;
  • 1 Pet 1:7.
606 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4,39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31.
607 2 Macc 12:46
608 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 856.
609 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41, 5: PG 61, 361; cf. Job 1:5.
 
Let me restate my position of REAL church tradition. The church cannot and must not teach anything CONTRARY or ADD on to what was already laid down by Christ and the apostles. Christ and his apostles taught both the spoken word and written word. These words were PASSED on from the apostles to their successors. That IS what true church tradition really means and is.

If something that is spoken centuries later, y a church leader does NOT have apostolic origination, then it cannot be based on apostolic authority. Christians are suppose to believe what they do, because of what Christ and his apostles taught and passed on to their successors. Not the other way around. Where men centuries later decree things that were never taught by Christ or his apostles.

There simply is no church father who quotes any apostle as saying one spoke of purgatory in this manner. Not one. It IS true St Augustine spoke of Paul’s writings and stated that he felt Paul was referring to a burning fire of purification. But St Augustine simply gives his OWN interpretation of what he thought Paul meant. Which is quite different. Notice he doesn’t say, “In such and such a verse Paul spoke of purgatory for the Christian in which they will endure suffering in burning fire.” Because Paul never taught such heresy. Paul clearly taught that the reward of the faithful Christian is heaven at death

Even the early fathers who spoke of the demise of Peter and Paul who were pillars of the faith went to their reward in heaven. The early fathers never said Peter and Paul were enduring the fires of purgatory at all.

In conclusion, what I’m saying, is this, a doctrine to have binding authority must have APOSTOLIC origin to back it up or it is MADE UP. There is no real church tradition without the teachings of Christ and the apostles period.

Ron from Ohio
 
Gregory of Nyssa sure sounds like he’s talking about Purgatory:
“If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he have inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire” (Sermon on the Dead [A.D. 382]).
 
St. John Chrysostom also sure sounds like he’s talking about Purgatory in Homily 41 on 1st Corinthians:
“For if the children of Job were purged by the sacrifice of their father, why dost thou doubt that when we too offer for the departed, some consolation arises to them? since God is wont to grant the petitions of those who ask for others. And this Paul signified saying, “that in a manifold Person your gift towards us bestowed by many may be acknowledged with thanksgiving on your behalf.” (2 Corinthians chapter 1, verse 11) Let us not then be weary in giving aid to the departed, both by offering on their behalf and obtaining prayers for them: for the common Expiation of the world is even before us.”

You can read this at a Protestant Web site -
ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-12/npnf1-12-46.htm#P2045_1241176
 
rarndt01–You have no credibility. You have been given numerous citations from Church Fathers showing that they took for granted the necessity for prayers for the dead and a purging and sanctifying state after this life. You have chosen to not respond to these, instead using the supposed appeal to the Church Fathers as a Sola Scriptura stalking horse. This on top of the fact you represent yourself in your profile as a Catholic. You are showing yourself to be more and more dishonest.
There simply is no church father who quotes any apostle as saying one spoke of purgatory in this manner.
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You are making up your own criteria for orthodxy. You are in good company with 30,000 seperate denominations that do the same thing.
 
rarndt01,

Perhaps this is something I don’t know about Catholicism. Where does the Catholic Church teach (perhaps in the Catholic Cathechism) or where can I research this issue to verify whether what you say is correct or incorrect (That unless an early church father quotes an Apostle in writing, the teaching is not to be considered part of Apostolic Tradition)? This is new to me, but since you claim to be Catholic, perhaps you could point me in the right direction.

Or are you merely describing your definition of Apostolic Tradition?
 
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1962Missal:
Ron,

Do you or do you not formally repudiate the Dogma of Purgatory?

Yes or no.

Justin
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What kind of quuestion is this Torquemada!?!

Are you his judge?
 
I don’t think one is necessarily judging another’s soul by asking the question, though the question does sound a little harsh (ala Hannity). But there are judgements to be made in this world:

“For what have I to do to judge them that are without? Do not you judge them that are within? For them that are without, God will judge. Put away the evil one from among yourselves. He blames them for going to law before unbelievers. Of sins that exclude from the kingdom of heaven. The evil of fornication.
Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to be judged before the unjust: and not before the saints? Know you not that the saints shall judge this world? And if the world shall be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know you not that we shall judge angels? How much more things of this world?”
1Cor:5:12-6:3
 
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Fidelis:
rarndt01–You have no credibility. You have been given numerous citations from Church Fathers showing that they took for granted the necessity for prayers for the dead and a purging and sanctifying state after this life.
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Eastern Catholic churches do not teach Purgatory, as such. It is pretty much an open-ended issue.

We do pray for the dead, and we understand that the process of Theosis may require more than a lifetime. But the assumption that there should be a purgation of sin is not defined.

This is another Western concept that depends directly on the notion of depravity in humanity. In the West we seek to be ever less sinful.

In the East we strive to become ever more Holy, we want to be Partakers in the Divine Nature. Ascetic practices abound in the Eastern Traditions, with more frequent, longer and harsher fasts for example. Longer liturgies too. And the monastic lifestyle is typically severe in practice. Continual prayer is encouraged.

For those who undertake the task, it is as if we are spiritual athletes in training. With Saint Paul we pray that we have not run the race in vain.

Ultimately, we pray for God’s mercy, not to release us from some Purgatory but to admit us into His Presence. We want to see the Face of God. That is why the Theotokos is so important to us, we understand her prayers to be most effective before the Judgement Seat of Christ.

For us then, there is heaven, hell and God’s Mercy! The Western doctrine of Purgatory is not precisely understood.
 
Seems like a fair question to me…so that others in these forums have a better idea how much credibility to give to the opinions of a member, especially if one indicated he/she is Catholic.

I often look at a member’s profile and make certain assumptions about how to go about the dialogue based on the info in the profile. It helps to know where they are coming from.
 
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rarndt01:
In conclusion, what I’m saying, is this, a doctrine to have binding authority must have APOSTOLIC origin to back it up or it is MADE UP. There is no real church tradition without the teachings of Christ and the apostles period.
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RA,

You have reached the final point of wetness between Catholicism and it’s more rational brethren, Protestantism. The only problem is that you are arguing FOR the side opposite the one you claim to be on!

We Protestants are standing here yelling: “Yea, another one finally figured it out!”, while our brethren from the Catholic side are yelling: “Man overboard Karl, toss him a life ring!”.

Understand that I’m not speaking ex Cathedra here when I say that: “The Catholic Church is it’s own final authority: it needs no confirmation from anyone in the promulgation of it’s dogma!”.

As was aptly pointed out by a poster on another subject, Catholicism isn’t a democracy, and you don’t get to vote!

Notice I ended the sentence? That’s cause that’s all there is!

God bless you in your struggles.

DB
 
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rarndt01:
There is not one church father who quotes the apostles as speaking of purgatory. Not one. Paul said, speaking as a Christian, that to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord. Further he said, that all believers were NOW citizens of heaven. For he said our citizenship is IN heaven.

Our Lord told his own disciples, to REJOICE for their names were written in heaven. Jesus said that where he is, there we shall be also. He is our shepherd and we are his sheep. He loves and cares for his sheep. NOTHING can separate us from the love of God. Romans 8. Nether death, principalities or powers. We are in him and he is in us. Blessed be he name of Jesus. Ron from Ohio
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Ron it is a teaching of the Catholic faith, check your CCC para 1031, 1472, 1475 and 1498.
 
Tempting as it is to turn this thread into a debate about Papal infallibility and Sola Scriptura, perhaps we should address the original question of why Purgatory is necessary, rather than the method of determining objective truth.

The very best explanation I have heard about Purgatory came from Bishop Fulton Sheen who described it as follows (hopefully I can say it close to the way he did):

Think for a moment of your soul as a piece of fine wood. At Baptism the wood is perfect and without blemish.

When we sin it is like driving a nail into that wood.

When we confess our sins, the nails are removed (so to speak).

To this point Catholics and Protestants usually pretty much agree. But Catholicism goes one step further:

Once the nails are removed, is the wood back in its original pure state? No. Where the nails once were, holes remain. Those holes are filled by our actions and works of love and suffering endured for His sake.

Purgatory is the place, where any remaining holes left in the wood at the time of physical death, are filled.

To those who do not believe in Purgatory, I ask you what the reward is for fasting? Or perhaps better yet, why is there a reward for fasting? What purpose would God have in expecting us to fast?
 
Why do we go thru mental gymnastic trying to justify something that exists? Purgatory exists because God created it. We don’t need to justify it. There are ample Scriptural references to the “purging” although the word “purgatory” does not exist in Scripture, it’s simply a man made term to express an actual condition which God has created.
 
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