Questioning what I read in the Old Testament about God

[Fidelis]

to all,

If I may? If it is my goal to read the whole Bible this year, and I get ‘stuck’ (have doubts, questions, etc) as I am on the sacrifice of Abraham, what amount of time or suggestions would you have for proceeding? Should I limit my study time if I am stumped? Is quantity, right now better than quality? Should I crank out the reading now and hope answers come later?

As I have read both testaments in the past, is it still more fruitful to start with New Testament first? The daily Catholic Bible has both old and new testaments for every day.

Would appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.

thanks,
Dona

At this point, I think quality materials are better than quantity, and it is better to study for understanding --especially the “big picture” at first rather than volume.This gives you a solid basis for further study.

There are a lot of good studies out there, but I would highly recommend you start with any Bible study by Dr. Scott Hahn. His writings have helped me immensely and he has a large amount of material to select from.

To get a very good base an overview, I’d start here:

Covenant Love: Introducing the Biblical Worldview

From there, you can study individual books of the Bible. You seem to be interested in Genesis, so I’d recommend the Agape Bible Study: Genesis.

If you have questions, or need more resources, or just want to discuss, you can always come back here. And if you like Jimmy Akin, he has a lot of good stuff on his blog dealing with tough questions about the Bible. Have fun!

 

[dz102789]

In general terms of some of the “negative” ways God is portrayed in the Old testament, I once heard a good and simple explanation from some seminarian friends of mine in that because revelation has in some sense a mutuality to it, we must not only think of the fact of how God is revealing Himself but also how we interpreted and received such revelation. Our understanding of God was a gradual process that culminated in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. God was never a cruel or seemingly unfair Tyrant, but rather we in our human brokenness had to slowly be transformed by God’s revelation so that we could come to know him as the loving God that He is.

In Christ,

Dave

 

[StrawberryJam]

Does Sara or their son ever speak to Abraham again after this event? Even once?

 

[crazzeto]

Does Sara or their son ever speak to Abraham again after this event? Even once?

You mean after the attempted sacrafice of Issac? Sara (Sarai) remained Abraham’s wife until her death, so they almost certainly spoke. Issac remained with him until the Patriarch died (for all intents and purposes) as well. This event didn’t change familiar interations at all. Again, I think it’s important to remember that child sacrafice up to this point was considered normal at the time. So what Abram did wouldn’t have been so shocking, in fact the shocking part was that God stopped the sacrafice!

 

[StrawberryJam]

You mean after the attempted sacrafice of Issac? Sara (Sarai) remained Abraham’s wife until her death, so they almost certainly spoke. Issac remained with him until the Patriarch died (for all intents and purposes) as well. This event didn’t change familiar interations at all. Again, I think it’s important to remember that child sacrafice up to this point was considered normal at the time. So what Abram did wouldn’t have been so shocking, in fact the shocking part was that God stopped the sacrafice!

Wasn’t it the job of Abraham to conferr the blessing to Issac, but he did not? God had to do it for Abraham. That’s a bit of a different interaction I think.
I realize that just because there is no evidence in scripture that they ever spoke to Abraham again that does not prove they never did, but only that it was not recorded that they did. Apparently after that event, there was nothing worth recording of their interactions together and that alone says something. Not sure what though. His being such an important figure in the bible, I guess you just expect there to be something after that scene. But, nothing at all. Just interesting I think.

 

[crazzeto]

Wasn’t it the job of Abraham to conferr the blessing to Issac, but he did not? God had to do it for Abraham. That’s a bit of a different interaction I think.
I realize that just because there is no evidence in scripture that they ever spoke to Abraham again that does not prove they never did, but only that it was not recorded that they did. Apparently after that event, there was nothing worth recording of their interactions together and that alone says something. Not sure what though. His being such an important figure in the bible, I guess you just expect there to be something after that scene. But, nothing at all. Just interesting I think.

Well what I was trying to get at is that while there aren’t many (perhaps no) recordings of intereations between the two after this point I do feel there is enough other information in there suggesting that they did in fact continued normal familiar relations as father and son. Just as there’s more than enough in there to get that Abraham and Sarai continued normal marital relations, apparently.

I don’t recall based upon my last reading of Gensis anything which would suggest otherwise.

 

[EnterCanaan]

Well what I was trying to get at is that while there aren’t many (perhaps no) recordings of intereations between the two after this point I do feel there is enough other information in there suggesting that they did in fact continued normal familiar relations as father and son. Just as there’s more than enough in there to get that Abraham and Sarai continued normal marital relations, apparently.

I don’t recall based upon my last reading of Gensis anything which would suggest otherwise.

Lets not forget that Christ is God, and God is Christ, and that though this is old testament, The author is still Christ, who is God. I know we all know this, just setting up my response.

So if Chirst is the word and the author, and if Christ is the one who came to Abram and called him Abraham, and so on, then it is safe to assume by the following passage that indeed their were many more interactions that were unrecorded.

John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus[God] did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

This verse applies to God throughout time. This does not just refer to the new testament and the words of Jesus Christ. Because Christ is the word made flesh *jon 1:14 so the word of the old testament is the same word of the new testament. And so we can take this to mean that Christ, who is God, who is the word, did many interesting and amazing things, of which only those things recorded in the bible were deemed necessary for God.

God is the author, and so He decides what His children need for salvation,. What is recorded is exactly the way it is supposed to be. And from the previous verse, rest assured we can take this to the bank, that God who is Christ who is the word did many many un recorded things during the history of time. It is only logical to take that from the verse. It would be an error to think the verse only applies to the spoken word of Christ during His ministry on earth.

Because we know that jesus is the word made flesh, however the word is still the word and so He is the author from the beginning, the same author, the same word, so we can be sure that many many more interactions happened which are not recorded.

 

[crazzeto]

EnterCanaan,

That’s an novel way of looking at it which I haven’t really considered previously. I think in the end we’re both getting at the same thing, but I do appriciate your twist on it.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

to all,

If I may? If it is my goal to read the whole Bible this year, and I get ‘stuck’ (have doubts, questions, etc) as I am on the sacrifice of Abraham, what amount of time or suggestions would you have for proceeding? Should I limit my study time if I am stumped? Is quantity, right now better than quality? Should I crank out the reading now and hope answers come later?

As I have read both testaments in the past, is it still more fruitful to start with New Testament first? The daily Catholic Bible has both old and new testaments for every day.

Would appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.

thanks,
Dona

Dona:

There are at least 2 Daily Catholic Bible’s that I know about - One is based on the Revised Standard Version - Catholic Edition, the other is based on the New Living Translation - Catholic Edition. You might want to see which one you have on your shelves.

Dona, I don’t know where you got the sentence you posted in your reply to my post - The closest I could find were these:

And I will walk among you,
and will be your God,
and you shall be my people.
Lev. 26:12 RSV
`…, and I will be your God,
And you shall be my people;…’
Jer. 7:12 RSV
So shall you be my people,
And I will be your God,
Jer. 11:4 RSV
“…And you shall be my people,
and I will be your God.”
Jer. 30:22 RSV
Look here for more matches. There were 20 in all.
​

I found NO MATCHES for, “If you will be my partner, I will be your God.” or anything like it. I even used the Bible Gateway & tried the NIV, the NASB, The Message, the Amplified Bible, the New Living Translation, the ESV, the NKJV, the CEV, the Holman Christian Standard Bible & the GNT. I think you might have read in one of the “daily comments” the My Daily Catholic Bible, and those were sometimes pretty cheesy. I’m not too crazy about “comments” in general, and that might be one reason why.

Dona, I very much agree with Fidelis’ suggestion that you look into the course at the St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology - Much of your inability to answer your “nihilist friend” comes from a lack of understanding of the basis of Christianity and Judaism. “Covenant Love: Introducing the Biblical Worldview” will answer most of the questions your “nihilist fiend” is throwing out, along with many you might also have.

I really believe you’d get a lot more from something such as that that was FOCUSED to deal with this ISSUE than just reading hoping you’d find the answers to his questions. After you’ve done the course, I’m sure you’ll find other courses at the St. Paul Center you’ll want to take. Dr. Hahn stresses the collective study of Scripture - People studying Scripture together. Doing it this way, you’ll find that, not only will you read most, if not all of the Bible, you’ll find you end up KNOWING the Bible, and doing so fairly quickly. I think that’s what you’re really trying to do - Isn’t it?

Remember, God didn’t give us a Book - He gave us a Church, which is the Pillar and Bulwark of Truth, which then gave us a Book to help teach us the Faith delivered to it by the Christ and the Apostles.

Since the St. Paul course are OnLine, you also can do something such as the following, while doing the courses:

1. My Daily Catholic Bible - using Lectio Divina, as Devotional Reading, or
2. The Readings from the Office of the Readings - Again, using Lectio Divina, and the Readings assigned to be read at Mass (You get more by reading ALL of the Verses in the From - To & the Context) Again, using Lectio Divina, or
3. The Readings listed in the front of the 1928 Book of Common Prayer - First try getting them from this Website - The 1928 U.S. Book of Common Prayer or from Episcopalnet.org - If that doesn’t work, let me know, I have another idea…

Today’s Readings were Prov. 1:7-19; Eph. 1; Ps. 4 & 8; 1:2-6, 24-28 (you could have read all the way from 2-28) & John 1:1-18. If you read every Scripture on that was on the list every day, and read as I suggested in the parens, you’d read 85% of the Bible

No matter what you do, write your questions down, pray about them for a few days, and see what answers come to mind. If they don’t, or if you just can’t live with the ones that do, after a few days, Bring these up to your priest, deacon or other KNOWLEDGEABLE person at your parish. Only after you’ve done these steps and not received a “answer” you can live with should you “ask an apologist” or either ask one of us you trust or start a thread.

To be continued in the Next Post, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Dona - Con. from Previous Post:

I think 3 important parts of the questioning process are - 1. learning to Trust that God wants us to ask Him our questions; 2. learning to Wait on Him for the answers, and 3. learning to Accept whatever answers He gives us once He actually gives us those answer. The problem is that acceptance of God’s answers may often have to PRECEDE understanding those answers.

Here’s something Christians often forget - although Christianity is a REVEALED RELIGION, much of what can be known about God can be inferred from the Natural Order. As St. Paul the Apostle said in Romans 1:16-32:
*But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.
*
Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.

So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.

• Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.*
  Romans 1:16-32 NLT (See BibleGateway for other translations)

It’s clear from this that we can know much of what God is like by observing Nature - Pagans can do that, too. That means that even the Pagans can have some idea of what God is like. We’re Catholics - NOT Calvinists. As Catholics, we don’t believe in “Total Depravity” or “Limited Atonement”. Since God could be known from nature, and even Pagans weren’t “Totally Depraved”, even the Pagans could know at least part of the Truth. and, Since Christ is the Truth, that means we would see a knowledge of God and a Preparation to receive Christ in the Pagan world.

One CLEAR example of this occurs with the Tilma of the Virgin of Guadalupe. If you’re not familiar with the story, I suggest you read it. The Blessed Virgin used Aztec Imagery not only to stop a civil war that was going to tear the Spanish Colony of Mexico apart, but to convert something like 9 MILLION Native Indians in 9 years. The Missionaries were literally running from village to village with the Image of the Virgin as Indians yelled, “Come Here!” pointing to pools of water they were standing by so they could be baptized.

I hope this helps.

Your Servant & Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[donanobis]

I found NO MATCHES for, “If you will be my partner, I will be your God.” or anything like it. I even used the Bible Gateway & tried the NIV, the NASB, The Message, the Amplified Bible, the New Living Translation, the ESV, the NKJV, the CEV, the Holman Christian Standard Bible & the GNT. I think you might have read in one of the “daily comments” the My Daily Catholic Bible, and those were sometimes pretty cheesy. I’m not too crazy about “comments” in general, and that might be one reason why.

Michael,

Sorry about the delay in getting back. I’ve been hit with a nasty illness this past week.Swept me off my feet but I got some much needed rest.

I can’t find the quote but will continue to look. I looked up everything you quoted and it wasn’t to be found there. The quote was something I read 15 years ago but I remember circling it. So I may still find it. I’m up to June in my search.

The bible i have been using is:

“The Catholic One Year Bible” The Entire Catholic Living Bible arranged in 365 daily readings. Tyndale House publisher Wheaton, Ill. Our Sunday Visitor copyright 1971 Nil Obstat: Rev Lawrence a Gollner Impramatur Leo A. Pursley Jan 9, 1976

You have given me so much food for thought. I can’t thank you enough. And Fidelis and all who have given me answers so far.You all are God send, literally.

thanks,
Dona

 

[warpspeedpetey]

My friend you have only just scratched the surface of what God has done in the Old Testament. From commanding genocide, to accepting a live burnt offering of a king’s daughter to rules on owning slaves.

Ask questions. Don’t settle on half baked answers. You will be rewarded with stronger faith…or an open mind. Again…don’t stop asking questions, there are so many that cannot be answered.

there are no questions that cant be answered. most times we just dont like or refuse to accept the answer. questions are fine, as long as you can handle answers you dont like.

 

[StrawberryJam]

there are no questions that cant be answered. most times we just dont like or refuse to accept the answer. questions are fine, as long as you can handle answers you dont like.

Show me the answer to these questions.

 

[Crumpy]

Dear donanobis,

I think you should thank God dthat the Spirit is leading you to ask your questions and to seek answers to those questions.

I was reading the entire OT two years ago, and throughout, even the very boring parts, I was overwhelmed by how much God loved his people.

That you are focusing on Abraham is really good, but you stumbled at the easier question, if I may say so. Look at the next question. God made a covenant with Abraham but foretold that his descendents would be taken into slavery. That’s a fine how-do-you-do, isn’t it? Why would God do that? and, that time, he really did it! Abraham’s descendents WERE taken into slavery in Egypt, for four hundred years, if I’m not mistaken.

And, that will take you just about to the end of Genesis.

As they used to say on TV, keep those cards and letters coming in. (which is to say, there are a lot of questions ahead, in your bible reading.)

The Jewish Publication Society has a major commentary on Genesis in print. The akedah, or binding of Isaac, is the first really polemical, i.e. argumentative, issue in Genesis that they take up, and they are very sharply anti-Christian in the interpretation of the akedah.

So, what is THAT all about? The issue has to do partly with what is done when a covenant is made, in the bible. There is usually always a sacrifice. So, quickly you notice that when Isaac is spared, a lamb is found, conveniently, and the lamb is sacrificed to mark the covenant with blood.

You will read that when the covenant is given at Sinai, there is a great feast that accompanies it. The sacrificed animals are eaten!

Well, the Jewish spin on this is that this is the precedent that God does not want human sacrifice, either right there and then, and also in the future! So, this is the precedent that the death of Jesus couldn’t have meant anything because God made that point here by sparing Isaac.

Well, they’re so close yet so far away, on that one. You might notice that God is saying that the sacrifice of Isaac wouldn’t “do” because it would never “do.” From the Christian standpoint, only the sacrifice of Jesus Christ would establish the eternal covenant, once and for all, and that by God’s will.

We non-Jews are in fact part of the Abrahamic covenant, if I’m not mistaken. But, we are a part of that covenant by the sacrifice not of that lamb, but because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. We are children of Abraham and children of God by adoption.

 

[Crumpy]

The Jewish commentary rejects any idea of comparing the incident with Isaac to any alleged practice of child sacrifice. In fact, the author says he has no knowledge of child sacrifice in or around ancient Palestine.

The author points out the singular and unique reason for God giving Abraham a command to kill Isaac, which is given in Gen 22:1 " Some time after these events, God put Abraham to the test."

He reasons that Abraham would not hesitate to kill himself if God said to do so. So, the real measure of his devotion to God was this test, to test whether Abraham would carry out the command of God to execute his son.

“In opposition to the pagan idea that atonement for the sins of the faithful may be effected through the sacrifice of the god or of his son, the sages stressed the doctrine of patriarchal merit. The willingness of the founding father to sacrifice his son as a proof of his devotion to God created an inexhaustible store of spiritual credit upon which future generations may draw.” JPS Torah Commentary: Genesis, Nahum Sarna, 1989, Jewish Publication Society, p 394.

The focus on the “test” of Abraham’s devotion explains the absence of mention of Sarah or Isaac in the account – they are irrelevent.

---

Today, the Pope made a visit to the Synagogue of Rome. In the commentary by Vatican Radio that accompanied the video broadcast by EWTN, there was mention of the recognition of the treasure of Jewish commentary on Scripture that the Catholic Church values and should draw on, in its pursuit of the truth about the scriptures.

Donanobis, for heavens sake, do not give up your faith! Like Fr. Corapi says, a thousand difficulties (in scripture) do not make for even one doubt.

 

[grace_singh]

here is from the Book of Hebrews :

By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death. (Hebrews 11:17-19)

God was testing Abraham, not asking him to kill his son. what Abraham could not see, God could. perhaps Isaac had become a source of pride for Abraham, and God was asking Abraham to give back to Him the one thing which kept his heart from truly loving and trusting God fully- his promised son.

God was looking for loyalty in Abraham, and Abraham showed his willingness to offer up to God the most precious thing he had- his son - knowing the son was ultimately a gift from God, His to take back, and His to restore to Abraham if He so wished.

through this amazing event, and the ram God placed in lieu of Isaac, God showed Abraham that it was not his son’s blood He wanted, but Abraham’s faith and love and trust in Him. the willingness of Abraham to sacrifice his own son forshadow’s God’s willingness to fully sacrifice His own Son for us on the cross, while the ram in the thicket substituting for Isaac foreshadows the Lamb of God, who stepped in in our place, and died so that we would not have to.

 

[crazzeto]

I wouldn’t read too much into Gods test, i.e. “Issac had become a source of pride for Abraham”. You risk (indeed really are crossing the line) of reading something into scripture which simply isn’t there. What we do know is that God’s request was indeed a test of Abraham, a test of Abraham’s faith. A test of exactly what kind of faith Abraham had, did he simply beleive as even the daemons did? Or would Abraham choose to offer god not only his faith, but his obediance as well? Further more, we can understand (based upon our knowlege of God) that it is likely that this test was more for ours (and Abrahams) benifit, as God is Omniscient.

 

[alongexpected]

It’s ultra-religious thinking like this throughout history that has paralyzed the pursuit of knowledge. It’s thinking like this that made humans believe for centuries that they couldn’t question a word in the Bible…as in “of course dinosaurs and people lived side-by-side” and “what do you mean we have proof that the Earth is billions of years old?..my trusty Bible (written by people who didn’t know what the Sun is) tells me that the Earth is 6,000 years old!”

Why? WHY? would asking honest questions give you punishment? STOP taking religion to the utmost extreme and worry about stuff that’s actually important, like being more patient with your kids or donating more of your time to the less fortunate!!

 

[crazzeto]

It’s ultra-religious thinking like this throughout history that has paralyzed the pursuit of knowledge. It’s thinking like this that made humans believe for centuries that they couldn’t question a word in the Bible…as in “of course dinosaurs and people lived side-by-side” and “what do you mean we have proof that the Earth is billions of years old?..my trusty Bible (written by people who didn’t know what the Sun is) tells me that the Earth is 6,000 years old!”

Why? WHY? would asking honest questions give you punishment? STOP taking religion to the utmost extreme and worry about stuff that’s actually important, like being more patient with your kids or donating more of your time to the less fortunate!!

Can you offer any proof? Or do you just have a bunch of wild assertions to offer?

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Michael,

Sorry about the delay in getting back. I’ve been hit with a nasty illness this past week.Swept me off my feet but I got some much needed rest.

I can’t find the quote but will continue to look. I looked up everything you quoted and it wasn’t to be found there. The quote was something I read 15 years ago but I remember circling it. So I may still find it. I’m up to June in my search.

The bible i have been using is:

“The Catholic One Year Bible” The Entire Catholic Living Bible arranged in 365 daily readings. Tyndale House publisher Wheaton, Ill. Our Sunday Visitor copyright 1971 Nil Obstat: Rev Lawrence a Gollner Impramatur Leo A. Pursley Jan 9, 1976

You have given me so much food for thought. I can’t thank you enough. And Fidelis and all who have given me answers so far.You all are God send, literally.

thanks,
Dona

Dona:

I’m very sorry to hear of your illness - Get well before you do any more searching, because I can just about GUARANTEE you’d find something like that based on the LIVING BIBLE PARAPHRASE! :banghead: I know - I used to own a Living Bible Paraphrase! Even the New Living Translation - Catholic Edition (NO Imprimatur) is better, and that’s saying a lot about how bad The Living Bible was as a translation - It was actually a paraphrase of the King James Version for those whose churches claimed the “KJV was (somehow) divinely inspired”. I’m actually quite shocked you actually still have one of those things. Now, I understand why you ran to the Douay-Rheims with such speed.:takeoff: I probably would have done the same if I hadn’t known about some of the translations I told linked on my posts…

I can ASSURE you you will NOT find anything like the phrase you found in The Living Bible in the RSV-Catholic Edition Daily Catholic Bible. It’s a much, much better translation than The Living Bible. If you want to try the “Scripture a Day” method, I strongly urge getting a copy of that and then getting a copy of one of the translations I linked for further study.

Thanks for the P/M - I really should have linked a couple of sites for Lectio Divina:
Accepting the Embrace of God - The Ancient Art of Lectio Divina
valyermo.com/ld-art.html
Order of St. Benedict - Lectio Divina
osb.org/lectio/
Archbishop Collins with an Intro to Lectio Divina - Part 1
youtube.com/watch?v=aqRf8-_M0-I&feature=related

I hope those are enough so people get an idea of what Lectio is without doing a Google search & finding a site with links to the Astrology “Reading of the Day”…

Your Brother in Christ, Michael