Questions about Bible self interpretting

[DeFide]

mikeabele:

…
I have my instruction from the Word of God to interpret it MYSELF!!!

2 Timothy 2:15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

James 1:22
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

John 5:39-40
39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Luke 1:1-3
1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; 3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

Not one of your passages says to “go by the Bible alone”. In fact one passage in context condemns it!:

John 5
37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen;

38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent.

39 You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me;

40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Notice that Jesus indicates that they “search the scriptures”, yet they come to the wrong interpretation. They don’t accept him!

I already gave you a formula from Scripture that shows that the Church, not the Bible is the final authority:

‘If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. . . . But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you. . . . If he refuses to listen . . . tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector’ (Mt 18:15-17).

The Bible is very clear to me about what to do if we have a disagreement with one another over some issue pertaining to the Faith. And please remember: To lead someone into heresy is a grievous sin against your brother according to Galatians 5:19-21! The Bible tells us that the Church, not the Bible, is the final court of appeal.

source: http://www.geocities.com/thecatholi…ascriptura.html

Here’s what you have to do Mike:

1. Define “Sola Scriptura”
2. Find that definition in the Bible, otherwise, by your own premise Sola Scriptura must be rejected.

Extra credit: Going by the Bible alone, how do you know which books belong in the Bible and which don’t?

 

[Fiat]

mikeabele:

There is no excuse for the behavior like that on either side. No one can kill in the name of Christ. There is a big difference. You have a man, claiming to be the earthly representative of Christ, the figurehead and spokesman if you will. He told his followers that it is the will of God to kill the Muslim, that anyone dying in such a “holy war” would be instantly be taken to heaven. Sound familiar? If Catholics were Muslim we’d all call that a jihad. That is what the Crusades were a “christian” jihad.

Mikeabele:
It’s very easy and convenient for Christians in this century to indict the zeal of Christians in preceding centuries, but the ways of the Holy Spirit are a mystery. If it weren’t for the zeal of certain Catholic Christians, the holy rosary and the vision of the Blessed Virgin Mary at the Battle of Lepanto, you would likely be bowing five times a day toward Mecca.

May Our Lady embrace you!

Fiat

 

[Church_Militant]

My Quote:

You wanna indict a religion for stupid behavior of it’s members? Fine, let’s talk about the Catholics that were martyred under Protestantism all over Europe and England. Ever hear of Thomas More and Henry VIII? Who’s the head of the Protestant churches according to Henry huh? Or the Irish, who only got some of their land and rights back in the 19th century and the “Know Nothings” and KKK here in this country, who burned our churches and murdered our clergy with impunity.

Originally Posted by mikeabele

There is no excuse for the behavior like that on either side. No one can kill in the name of Christ. There is a big difference. You have a man, claiming to be the earthly representative of Christ, the figurehead and spokesman if you will. He told his followers that it is the will of God to kill the Muslim, that anyone dying in such a “holy war” would be instantly be taken to heaven. Sound familiar? If Catholics were Muslim we’d all call that a jihad. That is what the Crusades were a “christian” jihad.

But you’ll bring something like that up in a discussion of our faith and pass yourself off as being innocent. That’s real righteous. And if there’s no excuse for that from “either side” then why did you feel it appropriate to bring up a matter in which your own house is not without sin? That’s just wrong!

Worse…now you dare to compare the Catholic Church to the butchering terrorists from the mideast? This is the most hypocritical piece of offensive anti-Catholic bashing I’ve heard in a long time and I suggest that you reconsider your interest in hanging out here.

I could really care less if you disagree with the teachings of the Catholic Church, but I will not sit by and allow you to use this forum (Our forum) to willfully disparage the Catholic Church and dress it up as if you didn’t intend to be a bigoted bash.

Do you wear a white sheet and a pointed hat when you post on this forum? Maybe you should…

 

[mikeabele]

DeFide,

I’m glad you recognize the instruction from Scripture, not the church, in Galatians 5 about heresy. You are so close to “sola Scriptura”.

I saw you ignored the following verse in your post:

2 Timothy 2:15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Let me give you more verses:

Galatians 4:21-31
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenantse; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

2 Timothy 3:14-16
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And** that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus**. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Guess the whole which came first church or scriptures is settled?
So let me ask you something, from the time Moses wrote the Law, to the time(around 45AD) that the first NT book was written, according to your theology no one knew what God’s Word said?

Also take note the above verse says that I don’t need Scripture plus tradition to understand or interpret, but that Scripture alone will make one wise to salvation, and that salvation is not through eucharist(for Christ had not died/church not begun when those men were young), penance, last rites, baptism, etc.
But through FAITH ALONE in Christ Jesus. Does the Catholic church teach heresy? This is a very important question in light of your last post.

The OT is sufficient to teach about faith in the Messiah, even Job author of possibly the oldest book looked foreward to the day Jesus would come, check it out this is really awesome…

Job 9:32-33
32 For he is not a man like myself, that I should answer him, that we should come together in judgment.33 Would that there were an arbiter between us, who could lay his hand upon us both

And

Job 19:23-26
23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book! 24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever! 25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

 

[mikeabele]

Church Militant:

My Quote:

But you’ll bring something like that up in a discussion of our faith and pass yourself off as being innocent. That’s real righteous. And if there’s no excuse for that from “either side” then why did you feel it appropriate to bring up a matter in which your own house is not without sin? That’s just wrong!

Worse…now you dare to compare the Catholic Church to the butchering terrorists from the mideast? This is the most hypocritical piece of offensive anti-Catholic bashing I’ve heard in a long time and I suggest that you reconsider your interest in hanging out here.

I could really care less if you disagree with the teachings of the Catholic Church, but I will not sit by and allow you to use this forum (Our forum) to willfully disparage the Catholic Church and dress it up as if you didn’t intend to be a bigoted bash.

Do you wear a white sheet and a pointed hat when you post on this forum? Maybe you should…

The bigger question is:

Were these murderers on either side believers? If it were my judgement I would say, unequivably no. Anyone that wishes to kill in the name of God/Christ is not a Christian. This is just what happened in your “unbroken” line of bishops of Rome. Drunk with power, they could have been the best of men, but were still men at best. And absolute power corrupts absolutely. Most Catholics will not even acknowledge that such a tragedy happened, as if the Pope is above reproach. You yourself are a militant, like I said if Catholics were muslim, the crusades would be called a jihad, what else could you have called it? I don’t remember protestants going on a “mission from God” to wipe out an entire people or religion from the face of the earth. Now that being said I don’t care to discuss the issue any more, I don’t even remember why I brought it up and will have to re-read my posts. I wouldn’t have made this one except to clear up your misconceptions of me or others like me. White sheets? I guess you believe those were Bible-thumping, faith/grace/scripture alone supporters too. Neither side is “more right” than the other when the question of murder is raised. But you have a real problem on your end CM, as I said your Vicar told the people it was the will of God to kill in the crusades, not only that but it would result in instant reward(something not easily done in Catholic faith) of heaven. I certainly don’t have any line of apostolic succession that was guilty of genocide. Enough said.

 

[mikeabele]

Fiat:

Mikeabele:
It’s very easy and convenient for Christians in this century to indict the zeal of Christians in preceding centuries, but the ways of the Holy Spirit are a mystery. If it weren’t for the zeal of certain Catholic Christians, the holy rosary and the vision of the Blessed Virgin Mary at the Battle of Lepanto, you would likely be bowing five times a day toward Mecca.

May Our Lady embrace you!

Fiat

I assure you, I would die before that happened. It has nothing to do with the rosary or Mary. But Christ!!!

God bless

 

[Church_Militant]

mikeabele:

The bigger question is:

Were these murderers on either side believers? If it were my judgement I would say, unequivably no. Anyone that wishes to kill in the name of God/Christ is not a Christian. I certainly don’t have any line of apostolic succession that was guilty of genocide. Enough said.

The bigger question is why you brought it up when you choose ignore similar trash in your own religion.

I guess that means that the Jews were not following the command of God in the OT? You judge far too easily. Was this wrong in Deuteronomy 20?

12 But if they will not make peace, and shall begin war against thee, thou shalt besiege it. 13 **And when the Lord thy God shall deliver it into thy bands, thou shalt slay all that are therein of the male sex, with the edge of the sword, **14 Excepting women and children, cattle and other things, that are in the city. And thou shalt divide all the prey to the army, and thou shalt eat the spoils of thy enemies, which the Lord thy God shall give thee. 15 So shalt thou do to all cities that are at a great distance from thee, and are not of these cities which thou shalt receive in possession.

16** But of those cities that shall be given thee, thou shalt suffer none at all to live: 17 But shalt kill them with the edge of the sword, to wit, the Hethite, and the Amorrhite, and the Chanaanite, the Pherezite, and the Hevite, and the Jebusite, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee: **18 Lest they teach you to do all the abominations which they have done to their gods: and you should sin against the Lord your God.

Since none of us were there it little behooves us to make remarks about the Crusades…or any past bloodletting done by any “Christians”. As for your allegations concerning bishops and popes I could get into some rude stuff with non-Catholic evangelists who bilk little old men and women out of money with their calls for donations that build their wealth and nothing more. I suggest that you stick to your doctrinal issues with the church and not attempt to impugn the whole church which is the fullness of truth, regardless of anyone’s incapacity to live up to it. By that judgement all Christianity is in dire question since “all have sinned”.

You yourself are a militant, like I said

Maybe some day you’ll bother to see what a term means before you attack someone for a name. Catholics know what “Church Militant” means.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
As signifying the Church, the word Ecclesia is used by Christian writers, sometimes in a wider, sometimes in a more restricted sense.

* It may signify the whole body of the faithful, including not merely the members of the Church who are alive on earth but those, too, whether in heaven or in purgatory, who form part of the one communion of saints. **Considered thus, the Church is divided into the Church Militant, the Church Suffering, and the Church Triumphant.**

The whole article is here: newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm

If you so abhor our most holy faith, then why are you here at all?

 

[mikeabele]

Church Militant:

The bigger question is why you brought it up when you choose ignore similar trash in your own religion.

Did you miss one of the last things I said:

I don’t have a line of apostolic succession guilty of genocide

Would you not stand with me and declare that anyone Catholic or non-Catholic who tells people to kill in the name of Christ is wrong and most likely not a believer, including the vicar of Christ? No I guess you wouldn’t, your religion does not allow you to.

I guess that means that the Jews were not following the command of God in the OT? You judge far too easily. Was this wrong in Deuteronomy 20?

The nation of Israel was commanded by God to kill its enemies. They also went to war when God told them not to and were easily defeated. As were the “Christian” armies at the behest of a Roman pontiff in the crusades for 2 centuries.

As for your allegations concerning bishops and popes I could get into some rude stuff with non-Catholic evangelists who bilk little old men and women out of money with their calls for donations that build their wealth and nothing more.

Amen! I would just as easily condemn a Benny Hinn, Oral Roberts, etc. Again you Catholics claim to be the ONE, TRUE, HOLY, APOSTOLIC Church. If that were true you should be setting the example, not using the tired line of “well they do it too, so both aren’t so bad”.

I suggest that you stick to your doctrinal issues with the church…

The word church in the NT means called out company. It is the living believer that is part of the church, or body of Christ. Yet Roman Catholics love to claim this “invisible” church is unbiblical. It is not only biblical it is the pattern of the NT church.

Considered thus, the Church is divided into the Church Militant, the Church Suffering, and the Church Triumphant.

The whole article is here: newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm

1 Corinthians 12:11-13
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
If you so abhor our most holy faith, then why are you here at all?

John 20:30-31
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Instruction straight from the God-breathed Scripture, let your grasp on your tradition slip and let the Holy Spirit reveal to you the written Word of God.

Romans 10:12-21 (KJV)

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our reporta? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

What compassion, what grace, what mercy, to those who deserved nothing. To only call on the name of the Lord through faith to be saved. Have you done this, what are you counting on to get eternal life?

 

[Fiat]

Mikeabele:

A couple of times you said:

You said The word church in the NT means called out company

My Bible has never self-interpreted this definition. In fact, I’ve never seen the phrase “called out company” in the Bible at all. Perhaps your self-interpreting Bible contains this phrase?

Walk in peace
Fiat

 

[Church_Militant]

mikeabele:

I don’t have a line of apostolic succession guilty of genocide

Speaking of so-called charity… .I sure can’t see yours here: You insist on using perjoratives in your posts as if we are going to listen to anything that you say.

You don’t know anything about the Catholic Church except what some anti-Catholic source has fed you, which is a line of doctrinal bunk. If you are here to evangelize us you are in the wrong place. from the forum rules that you agreed to when you joined here:
CONDUCT RULES
6. Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.
7. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.

Yeah yeah… I know what you believe. WAS like you for over 34 years and it was because of attacks by guys like you that I looked more carefully at what the Catholic Church teaches and discovered that non-catholics are wrong in their doctrines and that the Catholic Church is indeed correct. I’m your worst nightmare… a Catholic that knows what you believe and rejects it because he looked it all over in the context of the Bible and the history of Christianity. You can allege and preach til your ears fall of, but nothing that you believe is older than 500 years ago and all this Sola Scriptura based doctrine is what has led so many n-C churches further and further into error. That’s why there’s so much debate and disagreement between n-C churches. They all think they know what they are talking about and yet they don’t agree with the early church (much less each other) on any of it and the more the few honest ones who do look into it all become Catholics.

Those of us who left & are finally wise enough to question the bunk that n-Cs fed us about the church are the ones like me that come home with fire for the truth and with relationships with Our Lord that guys like you only dream of.
Pax tecum,