Questions About Fatima

[Apologist78]

I do not think the purpose is total and complete union with God, but instead, unity of purpose with His will. If it were total union with God, then we would have little to separate us from eastern mysticism.

Not at all- the difference between Christian Mysticism and Christianity is that while we have total and complete union with God, we retain our human nature, and we remain distinct from God. Christian Mysticism looses this distinction.

We cannot suffer so that others can have life since we are not without sin. I believe the whole purpose of Jesus’ sacrifice was to suffer without sin for us who suffer for our sin; thus becoming the spotless sacrificial lamb and abolishing the need for further animal sacrifices.

Jesus says “Love one another as I have loved you.” How did Jesus love us? With a REDEMPTIVE Love. How should we love others? The exact same way. This is only possible through Grace.

 

[Apologist78]

Could any serious Catholic really brush off Fatima so cavalierly?

What about the Miracle of the Sun, witnessed by some 70,000 people, including many atheists?

What about the prophecies that have been fulfilled dramatically?

What about the devotion of our Popes?

“Not required for belief” really doesn’t really suffice here.

Absolutely a Catholic can. Fatima in no way requires belief or submission. This is not to say it is false, only that the Catholic is free to reject it if they want to.

As far as the prophecies- like all prophecies it seems to me they can fit with a multitude of things. They are general, not specific.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Absolutely a Catholic can. Fatima in no way requires belief or submission. This is not to say it is false, only that the Catholic is free to reject it if they want to.

As far as the prophecies- like all prophecies it seems to me they can fit with a multitude of things. They are general, not specific.

I agree, of course, that the Church does not bind one to belief.

I just don’t see how an orthodox Catholic can dismiss it so easily. Usually, it seems to me it’s a matter of “I don’t like its teachings or spirit, so I’ll reject it”. That’s silly, IMO.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Not at all- the difference between Christian Mysticism and Christianity is that while we have total and complete union with God, we retain our human nature, and we remain distinct from God. Christian Mysticism looses this distinction.

I’ve never seen mysticism defined that way.

Losing one’s distinction completely from God would be a heretical idea. None of the saints that are honored with the term “mystic” that I know of taught that. Examples?

The beauty of our being, and our relationship with God, is just that we can become one with Him in such an amazing and deep way, yet we do still retain our individuality - our personhood. This is very much in contrast to, say, the collectivism of eastern philosophies. Each of us is a unique and eternal being.

 

[Apologist78]

I’ve never seen mysticism defined that way.

Losing one’s distinction completely from God would be a heretical idea. None of the saints that are honored with the term “mystic” that I know of taught that. Examples?

The beauty of our being, and our relationship with God, is just that we can become one with Him in such an amazing and deep way, yet we do still retain our individuality - our personhood. This is very much in contrast to, say, the collectivism of eastern philosophies. Each of us is a unique and eternal being.

Right, I did not mean to say “Christian Mysticism” but rather “Mysticism.” This is correct, Mysticism tends towards the pantheistic.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Right, I did not mean to say “Christian Mysticism” but rather “Mysticism.” This is correct, Mysticism tends towards the pantheistic.

Ah, Ok, a typo. Thanks for clearing that up!

 

[LilyM]

Right, I did not mean to say “Christian Mysticism” but rather “Mysticism.” This is correct, Mysticism tends towards the pantheistic.

I don’t think you mean to say ‘Mysticism’ in general. CHRISTIAN mysticism certainly does NOT tend toward the pantheistic (the idea that God is in all things) but rather union of the soul with God (ie it enters into Him instead)

 

[Angels_Unaware]

But Paul said “I offer up my sufferings to make up for what is lacking in Christ’s” (that’s a paraphrase). With no offense whatsoever, the notion that Christ’s sacrifice was all that was necessary for the expiation of all sin is a Protestant notion. Christ opened the doors of Paradise for us, but He did not put everyone there. Expiation of sin is still necessary.

I would also say, as others have posted, that this is an intrusion of Protestant-inspired thought - and I can relate as years ago I was there too! It is ingrained in our culture.

Mary is not holding up her Heart for worship - she’s holding up devotion to It as the most perfect and direct path to her Son.

“To Jesus, through Mary.”

I agree- my ideas are very influenced by Protestant thinking.

I need better Catholic sources of doctrine. I was not educated by a Catholic educational insitution, and I regret it.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

I was once influenced by Protestant through and went to a Protestant church and participated in a (predominantly) Protestant fellowship. Some of the things that I appreciate about the Catholic church are the deep and almost mathematical thought that goes into our cathechis, the existence of uncontestable miracles, the peer-review process for figuring out the truth, and the examples of great holiness within the Catholic Church (Mother Theresa, St. Maximilian Maria, St. Francis of Assisi, St. Padre Pio). In order to reframe your belief on Mary (which is probably somewhere between seeing her as someone mildly disturbing or unimportant and seeing her apparitions as closely linked to the AntiChrist), I recommend that you read books about her, devotion to her, and the power of the Rosary. I have personally read St. Louis Mary de Montfort’s True Devotion to Mary and Secret of the Rosary. I have only read small selections from the Secret of Mary, but that may ultimately be a good resource. Remember, His Holiness Pope John Paul II said that True Devotion to Mary was a “decisive turning point in his life,” and both St. Therese of Liseux (by the way, Mother Theresa chose the name Theresa after St. Therese of Liseux and St. Therese of Liseux is called the greatest saint of modern times) and St. Maximilian Maria followed True Devotion to Mary religiously. I believe it was his devotion to Mary that helped St. Maximilian Maria, while in the concentration camp, continue to lead others to prayer and praise to Jesus and Mary, offer to die in place of another who had family, and starve and dehydrate for three weeks before dying with a shot of carbolic acid. He earned the title of Righteous Among Nations by the Jewish people on Jewish Virtual Library. Could he have done it without the Immaculate Heart of Mary? From the way he lived his life, including I think posting exceprts of True Devotion to Mary on billboards and spending his whole life spreading her devotion, I think he would have said no.

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[NTOT]

I’ve never put this in words or spoken of this, but I honor and Love Mary, our Mother, and I believe she was ever Virgin, a pure vessel of the Lord, but I find it difficult to believe that she would bring that much attention to herself, or so it appears.

Of course our Lady deserves our attention. She even asks us to pray the Rosary to her. She is our ultimate intercessor and ally in our battle. No where does she ask us to worship her though.
And it pleases Jesus very much when we honour His mother and when His mother asks Him for us to help us. How can we ask our Lady to intercede? Certainly by praying the Rosary is one way.

 

[Edward_Henry]

Hi Hislittlelady,

My first problem is that when the children saw their visions of Mary, in one of them, Lucia asked Our lady if her little friend who had died went to heaven. Our lady responded that she was in purgatory. That’s my first problem. I do not believe such a thing that God or His Holy Mother would tell anyone specifically where a soul is. It doesn’t sit well with me. If seen in maybe a dream or a personal vision, but this was directly told to her. I question that.

My next problem is the children claimed to see horrific visions of hell. I also cannot understand that one. Why would our Holy Mother show small children something that terrible? I never thought God would reveal any aspects of heaven or hell to us before we left this earth.

Maybe this recent book might help to shed light on this:

"Its first dimension reveals that in Fátima the Lady of Heaven came as a catechist. She revealed in a simple form for the Portuguese people all those teachings of faith that would be put into doubt by many modern theologians in the Twentieth Century…

1. The Existence of Heaven and Purgatory: Sister Lucia tells us that during the first apparition of Our Lady: “I remembered to ask about the two girls who had died recently: ‘Is Maria das Neves in heaven?’ - ‘Yes, she is.’ **(She was about sixteen years old) - *‘And Amelia?’ *–Our Lady responded: ‘She will be in Purgatory until the end of the world’.”

1. The Existence of Hell: During the third apparition, Our Lady spoke after showing the children the vision of hell: “You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wants to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart.” Fourth apparition:* “Pray, pray very much, and make sacrifices for sinners; for many souls go to hell, because there are none to sacrifice and pray for them.”*

1. The Seriousness of sin: Sister Lucia reports that during the last apparition: “Looking very sad, Our Lady said: ‘Do not offend the Lord our God any more, because He is already so much offended.’” And on the Third apparition: *“The war is going to end; but if people don’t cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the pontificate of Pius IX.” *This was a reference to World War II, and was conditional on the people’s response…

Originally Posted by Hislittlelady

I’ve never put this in words or spoken of this, but I honor and Love Mary, our Mother, and I believe she was ever Virgin, a pure vessel of the Lord, but I find it difficult to believe that she would bring that much attention to herself, or so it appears

The question here is: Who is calling attention to Our Lady? She, or God Himself? Further in the same book, I found this enlightenning explanation:

**God’s children are being called to reverse this surrendering of the world once “entrusted” to them. How? As the time for the final battle approaches, the answer comes. In Fátima, right after the vision of hell, Our Lady gives us the condition: “God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace.” The condition willed by God had been given. If the children respond, they would be spiritually prepared for the final climax of the battle of the creatures. How was this to be done?

During the apparition of June 13, 1929, to Sister Lucia at her convent in Tuy, Spain, Our Lady said: *“The moment has come in which God asks ***the Holy Father, in union with all the bishops of the world, to make the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, promising to save it by this means…I have come to ask for reparation: sacrifice yourselves and pray” The battleground is ready. God waits for those creatures to whom He gave jurisdiction to ask for His intercession through the consecration of the world once entrusted to man. God will not intervene personally. His favorite Daughter will do it!

More here:
http://www.queenship.org/client/Products/ProdimageLg/3245.jpg

** John Paul II, The Pope Who Understood Fatima**

I pray this helps,

To Jesus through Mary

Edward Henry

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Rock on, Edward.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Does anyone know why the number 13 was so significant?

 

[Edward_Henry]

Hi Angelsunaware,

Does anyone know why the number 13 was so significant?

In this book I also found a reference to your question:

** The Meaning of the Thirteenth Day of the Month and Fátima **
Since Sister Lucia’s recent death on February 13th, 2005, a widespread discussion began regarding the hidden meaning of the number 13. This was due to the fact the Blessed Virgin Mary promised to appear to Lucia and her two little cousins on the 13th of each month, and that Pope John Paul II’s life was spared on May 13th, 1981.

After Sister Lucia’s death, Cardinal Bertone was asked to comment: *“The fact that the number 13 connects all the apparitions and was the date of the attempted assassination of the pope is something more than a simple coincidence, I think,” *the Cardinal said. *“In the same way, I think it is a heavenly sign that the Madonna called Sister Lucia to herself precisely on the 13th of February.” *He added that people should remember the 13th of each month *“not out of superstition,” *but simply because God and the Blessed Virgin Mary had done extraordinary things on that date in the past…

On November 13th 2007, Pope Benedict echoed a similar opinion. Making reference to a meditation on Mary’s Visitation to her cousin Elizabeth, he said:* “The apparitions here in Fátima are a ‘Visitation of Mary’ to the three children (Francisco, Jacinta and Lucia), to the Church and to Humanity. They are a blessing, and because of that, we relive the memory of that blessing on every 13th day” *

This obviously demonstrates that, contrary to the widespread ridiculous superstition of modern times against the number “13”, God sometimes does reveal his involvement and his will to us through the symbolism of numbers. We should not forget that next to the twelve apostles, Our Lady was the *‘thirteenth member’ *present at the birth of the Church on Pentecost Day…

Taken from:
http://www.queenship.org/client/Products/ProdimageLg/3245.jpg
John Paul II, The Pope Who Understood Fatima

I pray this helps.

**To Jesus through Mary **

Edward Henry

 

[Hislittlelady]

"Its first dimension reveals that in Fátima the Lady of Heaven came as a catechist. She revealed in a simple form for the Portuguese people all those teachings of faith that would be put into doubt by many modern theologians in the Twentieth Century…

I certainly understand her appearing and explaining in simple terms to simple peasants about the teachings of the faith, but why did she make it so it would cast doubt on modern theologians? Or was it maybe because she already knew that there would be a falling away from the faith by today’s society. It would have made more sense to me if she made it easier to accept and understand, and this is why I have so many questions about it. I guess it hasn’t been fully revealed to me and it is very difficult for me to understand all of this. I would love to though.

1. The Existence of Hell: During the third apparition, Our Lady spoke after showing the children the vision of hell: “You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wants to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart.” Fourth apparition: “Pray, pray very much, and make sacrifices for sinners; for many souls go to hell, because there are none to sacrifice and pray for them.”

Another great mystery here. In other apparitions such as the Divine Mercy for one, Jesus asks devotion to Himself, but here He asks devotion to His Mother, which I find odd. I wonder why He chose to do this since many people are not too sure about apparations to begin with.

My next point in question is we are to pray for all the poor sinners so that they will not go to hell, but what about some poor hobo in the streets, that maybe in the course of his life did some pretty bad things and he ended up homeless and alone. If no one prays for him, then how come some people will have the good fortune of being prayed for which will save them, and the poor hobo who has no one to pray for him, has this misfortune and will end up in hell? These are very strange revelations to my mind. I cannot understand the meaning of them.

So it would seem that because we are instructed to have devotion to Mary’s Immaculate heart and to sacrifice and pray without cease, that the salvation of the sinners who have no one to pray for them, then their salvation will be on our shoulders as to whether we pray for them or not. Did I understand this correctly? this strikes me as odd also. Very difficult to understand, maybe easier for some.

1. The Seriousness of sin: Sister Lucia reports that during the last apparition: “Looking very sad, Our Lady said: ‘Do not offend the Lord our God any more, because He is already so much offended.’” And on the Third apparition: “The war is going to end; but if people don’t cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the pontificate of Pius IX.” This was a reference to World War II, and was conditional on the people’s response…

Now this one makes perfect sense and I know that Our Lady did tell the children that the cup of God’s anger was overflowing and He was very much offended. So this makes perfect sense to me and is very believable. I would love to continue more discussion on another night. But, thanks for all your insights and I hope one day I can fully understand this entire apparition. I don’t have as much trouble with the other ones, only Fatima for the most part, and only because of statements that were made, that don’t sound right to me.

God bless till next time

 

[Hislittlelady]

Paul Folbrecht

From Dave Armstrong’s ‘Syllabus of Traditionalist Errors’:

“That Vatican II is the root cause of the modernist crisis (as opposed to the machinations of liberals and heterodox, who “hijacked”, distorted and twisted the orthodox, papally-approved Council for their own wicked ends).”

This is the truth. In simpler times, when faith was child like and trusting on church teachings, it was so easy to believe whatever the catechism taught us, including all the apparations. After Vatican II, all that started to change. And in truth, done by all the liberals that distorted all the church’s teachings in accordance with their own lifestyles.

This is why we have problems with the simple faith of yesterday which is a great struggle now for today. Over the years we have become a corrupt society, filled with sin of every conceivable kind. It’s now a Godless society, and people have turned away. More and more are falling away and I believe if I’m correct, that either in Fatima, or one of the other apparitions, this was predicted also. Not sure which one.

There are less priests now, nuns are rarely seen, and over the years, the entire fabric of the church has been changed. Hopefully there are still some that are trying their best with the help of the Holy Spirit, to continue to be devoted to our Holy Catholic Church, the one true church of Jesus.

I’m sure there are still plenty of good Catholics, but not quite enough. I see more doctoring up of the teachings of the church to suit each one’s individual lifestyle. Sin is no more called sin. After Vatican II many people left the church, many new churches built were made to look like assembly halls, and the days of old were gone. I think Pope Benedict is the best thing that’s happened to our church in recent times. He’s traditional and will not change rules to suit anyone. That’s why I love this Pope.

Blessings and good night.

 

[Edward_Henry]

My next point in question is we are to pray for all the poor sinners so that they will not go to hell, but what about some poor hobo in the streets, that maybe in the course of his life did some pretty bad things and he ended up homeless and alone. If no one prays for him, then how come some people will have the good fortune of being prayed for which will save them, and the poor hobo who has no one to pray for him, has this misfortune and will end up in hell?

I believe that Our Lady is Jesus’ number one missionary. And just like we entrust a missionary to take our alms across the world to deliver them properly to those who need them most, Our Lady takes the merit of our prayers and “applies” them to those most in need. She knows better than us who is most in need of prayers. If the poor hobo, who is also a sinner, is in need of prayer, She will make sure that our prayers include him.

To Jesus through Mary

Edward Henry

 

[Hislittlelady]

I believe that Our Lady is Jesus’ number one missionary. And just like we entrust a missionary to take our alms across the world to deliver them properly to those who need them most, Our Lady takes the merit of our prayers and “applies” them to those most in need. She knows better than us who is most in need of prayers. If the poor hobo, who is also a sinner, is in need of prayer, She will make sure that our prayers include him.

To Jesus through Mary

Edward Henry

This is a great explanation and now I’m able to view it through different eyes. I never would have thought of Our Lady as the Missionary above Missionaries. Wonderful insight and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for this very simple and beautiful answer to something that has plagued me for years.

Now I can finally start devoting myself to Mary. I will see her as a Missionary and in this way it will allow my heart to be set free from the burdens of doubt I’ve had all these years and will understand Mary in a whole new persepective now.

I believe the Holy Spirit guided you with these words meant just for me. My prayers never go unanswered and the Spirit used you to give me my answer.

God is very proud of you, his good and faithful servant.

Thank you everyone else for your wonderful explanations as well. You have all succeeded in opening my eyes to the messages of Fatima.

Many blessings to each of you

:grouphug:

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Hi Angelsunaware,

In this book I also found a reference to your question:

Taken from:
http://www.queenship.org/client/Products/ProdimageLg/3245.jpg
John Paul II, The Pope Who Understood Fatima

I pray this helps.

**To Jesus through Mary **

Edward Henry

Thanks Edward, I appreciate this. I did some searching on the number 13, and found that it is significant because Jesus + 12 disciples = 13, or as was said, at Pentecost, there were 12 Apostles + the Blessed Mother.

I also found that in the Torah there are 13 mercies of God.

 

[Genesis315]

My first problem is that when the children saw their visions of Mary, in one of them, Lucia asked Our lady if her little friend who had died went to heaven. Our lady responded that she was in purgatory. That’s my first problem. I do not believe such a thing that God or His Holy Mother would tell anyone specifically where a soul is. It doesn’t sit well with me. If seen in maybe a dream or a personal vision, but this was directly told to her. I question that.

There is a pious belief that Mary brings consolations to those in Purgatory–I see it as an act of love for Mary to tell the children that so that they can pray and make otehr satisfaction for their friend, rather than assuming the friend is in Heaven.

My next problem is the children claimed to see horrific visions of hell. I also cannot understand that one. Why would our Holy Mother show small children something that terrible? I never thought God would reveal any aspects of heaven or hell to us before we left this earth. Maybe someone could clarify via scripture if this is so. From ones so young it sounds like fabrication, which brings up question as to the validity of Fatima at all, which I have always believed, except since I’ve discovered these points. I’ve read many books on Fatima, and seen movies as well, and they do acknowledge that Mary did these things.

Scripture says St. Paul was caught up to the third Heaven and in Revelation St. John is shown Heaven and Hell. Various prophets in the OT also had such visions. As for children, Jesus said things would be revealed to “little ones.” They were given a special grace to “handle it” so to speak.

As was already mentioned, you can discern what you want to believe about Fatima, but I hoped I could help you become a little more comfortable with it!