Questions about religious life by those who are not interested in becoming religious

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Brother, I have a question that I was hoping you could answer: how did you come to know so much about the Church? I understand–of course–that you have dedicated your life to this subject, and spent a great deal of time with similar men and women, but I wonder how I too could learn as much.

In one of your posts, you mention having a doctorate in theology–I am wondering if classroom instruction is the source of your knowledge?

Also, are there any books that could explain these important distinctions? I have been looking for a sweeping, ‘Encyclopediast’-approach to Catholic organization and practice but have only been disappointed.

Thanks again!
First of all, I believe that we can all come to know a great deal about the Church and the faith and never go deeper than scratching the surfface. Even the great Aquinas made some horrible mistakes. Never try to go for the whole thing. Go for the part that most interests you and that is important to you.

Brother David (ByzCath) and I are in a rare position. Most religious men, priests or brothers, get advanced degrees in theology, at least a Master’s. Some of us go on for doctorates. In my particular case, my Master’s is Divinity with a focus on Spirituality and Religious life. I did well at that level. My superior decided to send me to Rome to get the STD in Ascetical and Mystical Theology. It’s not longer called that. It’s now called Spiritul Theology. I have always loved the religious life and the study of it was fascinating to me. Some people love the study of scripture, morals, liturgy and so forth.

If you don’t have time or money for a four-year master’s degree, there are shorter master’s degrees. There are also courses taught through the local dioceses. You have to be careful with these, because the profs are not always very orthodox. But most of them are very good. There is also an online program through Catholic Distance University. Their material is very good. It’s written by the same people who teach at seminaries and pontifical universities. Then there is always reading on your own. What you read is going to depend on your interest.

If you’re interested in the spiritual life, begin with the Francis de Sales, Introduction to the Devout Life. Go to Dubay, The Fire Within. Then go to Brother Lawrence, Living in the Present Moment…

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
This is a common experience. Most Roman Catholics don’t now these differences. Other Catholics seem to have a better handle on this. I’m not sure how the Roman Catholics lost their understanding of these differences and the importance of each in the life of the universal Church. Oriental Catholics seem to have a better understanding, even though some do get confused.

sisters v. nuns

friars, monks, and clerks regular

religious vs secular

consecrated man vs ordained man

religious congregation vs. religious order

institute of consecrated life vs society of apsotolic life

secular order vs. lay order

religious life vs. holy orders

solemn vows vs. simple vows

religious ordinary vs. diocesan ordinary

It’s true that some of them you can combine, because some people are called to more than one. But each is very unique and has its own attributes, origins, purpose, and manner of living and working.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Hello Br JR,

Good that you mentioned all these here. I am suddenly curious to know the difference. It would have been very useful if you could add at least just one line to define each of them.

Well, I am thinking of joining religious order. Ok let me not get confused much or use the wrong word here. I am inclined to join a contemplative order yet to be ordained as a priest. I am all confused after reading all these posts. I got confused with all the different orders under the same name. I always thought , If I join a religious order , it will be Franciscans or Capuchins. One simple question, Can I be Franciscan Friar ,leading a contemplative life and a be ordained as a priest who can serve faithful in their sacramental needs and obligations?

And also do you know anything about the “Franciscans of the Immaculate”? I know they are consecrated to Mother Mary. But If I join them, can I still be ordained as a priest?

Ps: I know very well that it is not my will, but His that is important. I will not become a priest if I am not called to be one. But since my heart longs for it , I believe I must give a thought to it.

Hope to hear from you.
Joe
 
Well Joe, to write a little comment next to each of the above would be risky. Each is a sublime vocation.

To answer your other question. You’re thinking about becoming a Franciscan and you’re looking at two of our obediences: Capuchins Friars and Friars of the Immaculate. Both are Franciscans. The Capuchins were founded by Francis of Assisi, though they were not called Capuchin until the 1500s, when a small group of friars received permisssion to live in a separate house with greater penance and more austere poverty. They exchanged the habit of the time for an earlier version of the habit, which had a long cowl reaching down to the chord. The people called them Capuccini, which in Italian can mean the hooded ones or the hermits, because hermits traditionally wore those longer hoods.

The Franciscans of the Immaculate were not founded by St. Francis. They are a post Vatican II foundation. However, they do have Franciscan succession, because their founder was a Franciscan friar. I believe that he may have been a Conventual Franciscan. Contrary to popular believe, they were not founded by Friar Maximilian Kolbe, but they were inspired by his manner of living the Franciscan life in the service of the Immaculate. That’s why the may a fourth vow that is not in the Franciscan Rule, the consecration to Mary.

Both communities have priests. Unlike the Dominicans or Carmelites who are clerical orders, the Franciscans avoid the clerical status. They have only one class of friars. Where the Dominicans have the Dominican priests and the Dominican brothers and consider each a very unique vocation, the Franciscan family has never had that distinction. We consider every friar to have the same vocation. Our vocation is to live the Gospel in the manner of St. Francis. Whether or not you’re ordained does not change this.

A man can be priest and still be a friar. Normally, a man who petitions to enter the order will also petition to be ordained. Very early during the discernment process, the candidate and the superior will decide if you have a vocation to be a Franciscan and to be a priest. The decision can come down in one of three ways: 1) You may both agree that you have a vocation to be both, Franciscan friar and priest; 2) You may agree that you have a vocation to be a friar, but not a priest; or 3) You may agree that you have a call to be a priest, but not a friar, in which case you would leave to join a diocese.

Whatever is decided between you and the superior will determine the program of academic studies on which you will embark. It does not affect the religious formation. The religious formation is one, because all friars are the same. Everyone goes through aspirancy, postulancy, novitiate and temporary vows. During that time you will be studying Franciscan studies. It takes about 6 years to reach solemn profession, but it can be extended.

You cannot be ordained until after you have made solemn vows. During this time, things often change. You may realize that you are not called to be a priest or your superior may realize this. Even though you agree on this when you entered, there is no commitment on either part. Either one of you can decide against ordination. What is not usually done is to allow a man to be a permanent deacon. There have been men who were ordained deacons, with the idea of being ordained priests the following year. They changed their minds and asked not to be ordained priests. This has to go through the council and the major superior. This would make you a deacon for an indefinite period of time. The order tries to avoid this. There are some permanent deacons, but not many. They are the exception, not the rule.

As to the work that you will do, that will depend on your gifts, the mission of the community and the judgment of the superior. None of us chooses his work. Most superiors are gracious enough to ask us what we would like to do and what we’re comfortable doing. You should never be surprised if you run into a superior who does not ask and simply assigns you to a particular ministry. I’ve had both kinds. I had a superior who assigned me to mimssion work without asking. It was the last thing that I ever wanted to do. When I asked if I could be spared, I was told, “No.” No explanations were given and I was sent to the missions for seven years.

I had another superior who asked me if I wanted to go to Rome to get a Doctorate in theology. I very much wanted to do so. We agreed and I was sent. But when I came back, the new superior told me that he wanted me to work among immigrants. I thought that I would be coming back to teach theology. I was not asked. Three years later, the same superior asked me if I wanted to teach theology.

You have to be open to the Spirit. Franciscans are not as organized and as clear cut as Dominicans and Jesuits. We’re very proud of our lack of disorganization. 😃

If you want to join one of the Franciscan communities that admits priests you will have to be conscious of one very important thing. Franciscans love our priests. We have great respect for priests. But we have a much more egalitarian approach to the priesthood that other orders, even more egalitarian than the laity. Our clerics, as we call the ordained, make a very conscious effort to blend into the fraternity. The aspiration of every good Franciscan is to be the lesser among his brothers.

We do maintain a very clear distinction between us and the laity. We’re probably one of the orders that puts the greatest distance between us and the laity. This is to protect our community life. But we avoid distinctions among us, also to protect the community life and to be faithful to the early Franciscans who had only one class of brothers.

I hope this helps. Feel free to ask me more questions.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Hi Br JR,

Thank you very much, Your explanation gave me the clarity I was seeking. I had almost started thinking of leaving Franciscans out of my list because I was reading more about bieng a Friar and not much on priesthood is talked about. Now I know I can opt for being a Priest or a Friar but the assumed humility put a priest and a firar at the same level demanding both tol ive according to the rules of St Francis. Well… I am happy about it.

Also It was interesting to know about the duties given to you by superiors , with and without your consent. To be honest I would love to be asked to do the things i dont want to do. I believe it is a test of “Obedience”. Moreover that helps us to know how we have to say yes to the Will of God.

Let me ask one more question, it is just struck me while I was reading your response. About Dominicans and Carmalites who are clerical orders! I know the clerical order means that they are priests for sure but my questions is that do they participate in the diocesian duties by rule or is it just that you cannot stay as carmelite/ dominican monk or brother without being ordained as a priest one day?
Joe
 
To your original question: I think for younger Catholics like myself (I am 24), religious orders and members are so far outside of the norm that they are naturally curious.

I did not have any experience with nuns/sisters/monks (outside of the Sister Act movies) until I went to college at a Benedictine University*, and I was raised Catholic in a relatively Catholic area. Some of this could be that many orders stopped wearing the habit so they became less visible in the world and also with the lack of vocations, areas with new growth, suburbs and rural areas did not have orders in their immediate area.

So when you know that something is supposed to be a part of our faith tradition but they don’t know anything about it, people are going to ask questions.

*correction, I guess when I was pretty young the formation program took us to visit some contemplative nuns who made the hosts for diocese. But I don’t really remember meeting any/many? nuns.
 
Hi Br JR,

Thank you very much, Your explanation gave me the clarity I was seeking. I had almost started thinking of leaving Franciscans out of my list because I was reading more about bieng a Friar and not much on priesthood is talked about. Now I know I can opt for being a Priest or a Friar but the assumed humility put a priest and a firar at the same level demanding both tol ive according to the rules of St Francis. Well… I am happy about it.

Also It was interesting to know about the duties given to you by superiors , with and without your consent. To be honest I would love to be asked to do the things i dont want to do. I believe it is a test of “Obedience”. Moreover that helps us to know how we have to say yes to the Will of God.

Let me ask one more question, it is just struck me while I was reading your response. About Dominicans and Carmalites who are clerical orders! I know the clerical order means that they are priests for sure but my questions is that do they participate in the diocesian duties by rule or is it just that you cannot stay as carmelite/ dominican monk or brother without being ordained as a priest one day?
Joe
A clerical order is an order of priests. The Dominicans and Carmelites are clerical orders. They were founded to be orders of priests. But they do have Dominicans and Carmelites who are brothers. They remain brothers for life.

Do they participate in the diocesan duty?

No religious orde is bound to serve a diocese. Those religious orders that serve a diocese do so per a mutual agreement between the bishop and the major superior. This is going to vary from one region to another. In some regions there are many diocesan ministries that religious orders take on. In other regioins there are few. It depends on two things: need and the talent of the men invovled. They have to match.

I think that you may not have understood one point that I made about Franciscans. Every Franciscan is a friar (brother). Some friars are ALSO ordained.

It’s like a math equation. Take Fr. Benedict G.

Friar + Priest = Fr. Benedict

Friar is his vocation or way of life.

Priesthood is his ministry, also called by Christ

Take me

Friar + Theologian = Br. Jason Richard

Friar is my vocation or way of life

Theologian is my ministry, also called by Christ.

The difference bween Franciscans and other communities is that our friars who are priests do not stand out. If you visit our web pages, you’ll see a few pictures of friars celebrating mass, but most of all you’ll see pictures of the friars jsut being together. The focus in their brotherhood. You become a Franciscan because you love these men and you want to be part of their family, not because you want to be a priest. You do not have to be a priest to be a Franciscan. You can be a diocesan. The Franciscan has a great love for the Gospel, the Church, St. Francis and his brothers. That is what makes him Franciscan. There is the priesthood of Jesus Christ, not the priesthood of St. Francis. Our priests are no different from any other priest. However, the way they live every day is very different from every other Catholic. They live the Gospel in the manner of St. Francis.

One more thing, being told to do something against your will sounds more romantic than what it is. It’s not pleasant and it’s not easy to comply. Be careful not to romanticize it. It requires a great deal of patience, charity, and self-control to obey. Obedience is never acheived. We get better at it each day.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
To your original question: I think for younger Catholics like myself (I am 24), religious orders and members are so far outside of the norm that they are naturally curious.

I did not have any experience with nuns/sisters/monks (outside of the Sister Act movies) until I went to college at a Benedictine University*, and I was raised Catholic in a relatively Catholic area. Some of this could be that many orders stopped wearing the habit so they became less visible in the world and also with the lack of vocations, areas with new growth, suburbs and rural areas did not have orders in their immediate area.

So when you know that something is supposed to be a part of our faith tradition but they don’t know anything about it, people are going to ask questions.

*correction, I guess when I was pretty young the formation program took us to visit some contemplative nuns who made the hosts for diocese. But I don’t really remember meeting any/many? nuns.
I believe that there is a natural curiosity and it can be very healthy. You can learn a great deal if you really open your mind to the fact that other people can live such different lives and still be very real people. I believe that this is one of the issues with the habit. To many religious the feeling that they got from you, the laity, was that they were not real people. That you expected something from them that they could not deliver. It created almost a fear.

I believe that we’re coming out of that fear. I know that in my community the prevailing attitude is “We are what we are and we make no apologies.” This was not the prevailing attitude coming out of the 60s and 70s. There was a discomfort because the laity looked up to religious as if we had some hot-line with God or were less sinful than other men. This made some people want to hid and others came out fighting the entire image. Flight or fight is very typical under stress. I’m not suprised. I believe that those who either fought or fled threw out the habit because it identified them in a role that they could not fulfill.

What I always ask the laity to do is to keep a balance. Extremes are not good. By the way, I also ask religious to keep a balance too.

If you start to treat your religious like a peer, that’s wrong. The truth is that we’re not peers. The Church does not see us as such and does not want us to be such. We’re equal in that we are all sons and daughers of God. But we are not the same and we are not in the same place on the ecclesial ladder.

However, the opposite is also false. Contrary to expectations, we are not saints. We are people who are doing the best we can to be faifhful to what God calls us to be. We need the prayers of the laity and the spiritual support.

We do not need the criticism, the bashing, the second-guessing, the finger pointing, you get the picture. Not only is that rude, but it’s very disturbing. What it says is that the person doing this has some kind of right to pass judgment or worse, that the person who is doing this has no flaws in the way that he lives out his vocation. That’s spiritual arrogance.

We all have strengths and flaws. We need to help each other. But nagging is not helpful. If you think it is, remember your mother’s nagging or that of your spouse or your teenage child. How helpful is that? You want to kill him, don’t you?

Guess what, we religious want to kill a few lay people once in a while. There are the real friends who are thoughtful, helpful, supportive, patient and always have a good suggestion.

Then there are the critics and the whiners. Nothing is ever right except the good old days. However, they did not live in convents and religious houses in the good old days. They may have found out that they were not so good for everyone. They looked good to the outsider. There were many unhappy and unsuitable people behind those walls. Then we wonder why we had sexual abuses and corporal punishments etc.

The religious houses needed an airing. Now we’re getting back to business. It will require prayer and patience.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I believe that there is a natural curiosity and it can be very healthy. You can learn a great deal if you really open your mind to the fact that other people can live such different lives and still be very real people. I believe that this is one of the issues with the habit. To many religious the feeling that they got from you, the laity, was that they were not real people. That you expected something from them that they could not deliver. It created almost a fear.

I believe that we’re coming out of that fear. I know that in my community the prevailing attitude is “We are what we are and we make no apologies.” This was not the prevailing attitude coming out of the 60s and 70s. There was a discomfort because the laity looked up to religious as if we had some hot-line with God or were less sinful than other men. This made some people want to hid and others came out fighting the entire image. Flight or fight is very typical under stress. I’m not suprised. I believe that those who either fought or fled threw out the habit because it identified them in a role that they could not fulfill.

What I always ask the laity to do is to keep a balance. Extremes are not good. By the way, I also ask religious to keep a balance too.

If you start to treat your religious like a peer, that’s wrong. The truth is that we’re not peers. The Church does not see us as such and does not want us to be such. We’re equal in that we are all sons and daughers of God. But we are not the same and we are not in the same place on the ecclesial ladder.

However, the opposite is also false. Contrary to expectations, we are not saints. We are people who are doing the best we can to be faifhful to what God calls us to be. We need the prayers of the laity and the spiritual support.

We do not need the criticism, the bashing, the second-guessing, the finger pointing, you get the picture. Not only is that rude, but it’s very disturbing. What it says is that the person doing this has some kind of right to pass judgment or worse, that the person who is doing this has no flaws in the way that he lives out his vocation. That’s spiritual arrogance.

We all have strengths and flaws. We need to help each other. But nagging is not helpful. If you think it is, remember your mother’s nagging or that of your spouse or your teenage child. How helpful is that? You want to kill him, don’t you?

Guess what, we religious want to kill a few lay people once in a while. There are the real friends who are thoughtful, helpful, supportive, patient and always have a good suggestion.

Then there are the critics and the whiners. Nothing is ever right except the good old days. However, they did not live in convents and religious houses in the good old days. They may have found out that they were not so good for everyone. They looked good to the outsider. There were many unhappy and unsuitable people behind those walls. Then we wonder why we had sexual abuses and corporal punishments etc.

The religious houses needed an airing. Now we’re getting back to business. It will require prayer and patience.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Hi Brother JR,

I must admit that I was disturbed by your reaction. I could feel the irritation you have with the laity. I have a question though. If the laity should not see themselves as equals (i.e., peers) with the religious, wouldn’t this attitude result in a wider gap/animosity/indifference between the two groups?

In my opinion, I believe that the only way these whining, nagging, critical laity could understand the religious life is for them to spend some time living with the religious. That would remove the mysterious/hotline-to-God image religious have. As a Secular Franciscan, I always had a healthy respect for those in the religious life, and living with our brothers in the religious life for a few days or so made me understand them a lot more.

In Christ,
albertziggy:rolleyes:
 
I should clarify something that I said before, because I can see that my choice of words has communicated something different that what I intend.

When I say that we’re not peers, I’m not speaking about one person being superior to another. That’s silly to say such a thing. I was thinking of ministerial roles. Maybe an example will help. My doctor and I are not peers. When I go for an appointment, he is the doctor and I’m the patient. When I am served by a religious who is serving me in some pastoral capacity, we are not peers. She is serving me and I’m benefiting from her service.

There is another point that is equally important here. When one person ministers to another, both are enriched. Religious who serve God’s people, in the many apostolic activities that religious serve, they too are enriched by the blessings they receive through the people they serve. There is a reciprocal relationship here where both parties are benefiting from the love of God present in them and between them.

I believe that we must always look to the reciprical relationship of love between the laity, clergy and the religious, while maintaining the lines that mark our different vocations.

As to my irritation with the laity, I’m not irritated by the laity. I find constant complaining irritating, regardless of who is doing the complaining. I find rudeness irritating. Even perfectionism can be irritating, because we are all human beings trying to do the best we can with what we have. The perfectionist can frustrate the efforts of the less gifted, less holy and who are struggling more.

That being said, there ae people who complain because things are not the way that they believe it should be. The things that we believe are not always what should be. That’s why I strongly believe that questions are good, if the purpose is to understand. There are people who simply wag the finger in question form. That’s irritating, because nothing that you can say will make the person happy. For myself, what makes me happy is to be able to answer someone’s question to their satisfaction. They don’t have to agree with the answer. However, if they understand the answer, then I’m happy that I have been able to do something for them.

As I said in my post above, religious and lay people have to keep a balance. I believe that it is wrong for religious not to answer questions about our way of life, our ministries, our history, and our spirituality. We should be available to answer questions. We should welcome questions.

On the laity’s part, it is good to ask questions and to try to understand, especially the background behind many of the different traditions, ministries, structures and expressions of religious life. In fact, when I started this thread I was hoping to find more people who want to understand such things.

It is also important for the laity to maintain a balance. That is to remember that not all the answers are going to be comprehensible. Some are going to take us by surprise. Some answers are going to be different from what we expect. And there are many expressions of religious life; therefore, there are going to be some charisms and spiritualities that we find more akin to our personality and our journey than others. But the fact that there are spiritualities and religiuos communities that are not what we feel comfortable with, does not make them wrong or bad. If they were all the same, then we would have one religious family instead of thousands. One of the beauties of religious life is the diversity within it.

If I may offer an example of what I’m saying about balance. I have seen many posts on CA about the Jesuits and they are not all flattering. This is unfair. The Jesuits are Society of almost 20,000 men with hundreds of thousands of men since the time of St. Ignatius. In such a large family there is going to be diversity. There are going to be some interesting people. Others are going to be of our liking and some not at all. But when I look at the Jesuit spirit, their constitutions, their work around the world and their contribution to the Church, they have much to admire, even though Fr. Joe Jesuit may be a lose canon. Every family, not just religious families, has lose canons. Let us not judge an entire religious family by the few who are more known. Usually, the few wild cards get much more publicity than the larger number of saints.

I believe that Albert’s idea is a good one, when possible. Come and see what the local religious in our diocese do. Volunteer for a few day or go on retreat to their houses. Someone mentioned the Salesian retreat house in their area and how underutilized it is.

With the birth of the internet there is another good source of information. Many religious communities have websites. You can read about them, their life and their work. They usually have a contact link for more information where people can ask questions.

I want to thank everyone who has posted on this thread. This has helped me to see the questions that people have and where they’re coming from. If I may suggest to everyone, continue to ask questions and try to explain where your question comes from. No one is going to be upset by a legitimate desire to understand.

Let us always remember that without love between us: clergy, laity and religious, there is little hope for transforming the world.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I have real question and there is no disrespect intended, just genuine curiosity. Why do so many lay people who have no interest in entering religious order or a religious congregation ask so many questions about religious life on a vocation forum?

Allow me to explain myself. I have no interest in rocket science. I really don’t. If we had a forum on rocket science, I would pass it up and go to the one that interests me. Am I being to single-minded or just not curious enough?

When I was a novice, we were taught not to ask questions that have nothing to do with our lives, because such a pursuit only takes away from the mental cloister that is necessary for prayer and the things that are important for our daily lives. In other words, the goal is to achieve absolute internal silence to hear the voice of God.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
I am one of those people so I suppose I should answer this. If I offend anyone then please forgive me… 🙂

I’m not American and the country I live in is not particularly religious. I mean… I was baptized and did the holy communion and such, but my parents only go to church when they have to. Just like everyone else really. So to be completely honest, the very idea that someone let’s religion (any religion) dictate his/her life is foreign to me. Since I don’t know anyone who believes like this, reading messages on fora is the only way for me to at least try to understand.

Here comes the tricky part. The reason I’m not religious is not because I don’t believe in something “more”, just to put it that way, but more the black & white views some religious people have. Because, let’s face it, every major religion claims to be “the only one”. And “everyone who isn’t … (insert religion here) is wrong, a sinner and will go to hell”. Oh… but as a non-religious person you are not judged… Which is probably why quotes like this one make me smile:
But it’s also true that if a person is in mortal sin (and while we don’t judge, we can certainly say if an action is objectively a mortal sin, without being judgmental. . .
See, this I don’t understand… How can you say someone commits a mortal sin, tell them that it is, without being judgmental??? This is contradictive… :confused:
 
I have real question and there is no disrespect intended, just genuine curiosity. Why do so many lay people who have no interest in entering religious order or a religious congregation ask so many questions about religious life on a vocation forum?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Alot of good opinions were voiced here and some really good reasons that the layity is so interested in religious orders.

But I’ll add one more - the vocation forum is easily one of the nicest and most uncontentious forums here at CAF and it’s a pleasure to be here! 🙂
 
Alot of good opinions were voiced here and some really good reasons that the layity is so interested in religious orders.

But I’ll add one more - the vocation forum is easily one of the nicest and most uncontentious forums here at CAF and it’s a pleasure to be here! 🙂
It’s funny that you should say that there are many good questions here, because I was thinking that there have been some very good responses to my question too. I taught for many many years, everythng from middle school to college. Then I was in school administration, from middle school principal to college dean. I always told the students there are rules to getting the answers to your questions.
  1. Ask the right person. No use asking the mail carrier if dinner is ready, unless you’re going to his house to eat.
  2. Make your question clear enough so that the other person knows what you’re asking. If the other person has to translate in order to answer, you may not get a good answer.
  3. When you get an answer that is surprising, check to see if your question was understood. Sometimes you get an answer to what the person heard and not what you wanted to ask.
  4. Never use the question as a way of wagging the finger at the listener. That’s not a question. That’s nagging in discuise.
  5. If you’ve already made up your mind, don’t bother asking. You won’t like any answer except the one that agrees with you.
  6. When you ask a question, be prepared for either a) an answer that is unexpected or b) an answer that you don’t like. If you don’t like either a or b, don’t ask the question.
  7. Always thank the person for taking the time to answer your question. People are more eager to answer questions if they feel that they have been helpful.
My point is that religious life, diaconate, and preisthood can be very interesting from the outside. It can also be very confusing, because there are so many religious families. We are as diverse as the families in your neighborhood. Most of us really like answering questions, when we feel that we’re being helpful. I don’t think that’s just a religious thing. I believe that’s human. No one likes answering questions when they feel that the other person is prying. I believe that’s human too.

But the answers that I’ve seen here are mostly about curiosity or a desire to be better educate in the life of the Church. Those are good reasons to ask. Everyone is curious about many things. Though I believe that we have to be careful not to let curiosity get the best of us and be inappropriate. Wanting to know more about the life of the Church is a no-brainer. Everyone should want to know as much as they can learn.

Finally, you’re right. People are very nice on the vocation and the spirituality threads.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReduction - Opening Post
I have real question and there is no disrespect intended, just genuine curiosity. Why do so many lay people who have no interest in entering religious order or a religious congregation ask so many questions about religious life on a vocation forum?
I think this has been answered probably I think.
Allow me to explain myself. I have no interest in rocket science. I really don’t. If we had a forum on rocket science, I would pass it up and go to the one that interests me. Am I being to single-minded or just not curious enough?
This is a personal issue for the person concerned since motivation is a personal issue unless the person involved shares the actual motivation.
When I was a novice, we were taught not to ask questions that have nothing to do with our lives, because such a pursuit only takes away from the mental cloister that is necessary for prayer and the things that are important for our daily lives. In other words, the goal is to achieve absolute internal silence to hear the voice of God.
Has this been answered, addressed? - i.e. are laity called to imitate the spirituality of religious? And if so, should we not be informed on all aspects of religious life?
My point is that religious life, diaconate, and preisthood can be very interesting from the outside. It can also be very confusing, because there are so many religious families. We are as diverse as the families in your neighborhood. Most of us really like answering questions, when we feel that we’re being helpful. I don’t think that’s just a religious thing. I believe that’s human. No one likes answering questions when they feel that the other person is prying. I believe that’s human too.
It may be quite human to feel a certain resentment if one person feels that another is only prying - but we are called to rise above our strictly human feelings. Also any sort of negative feelings about the questions/disposition of another may be incorrect and may be my problem not the problem of the one asking questions. There is nothing in existence in The Church to my knowledge that asks lay people not to address the issue of religious life in all its aspects - in fact we are asked to be informed Catholics and perhaps especially on the issue of religious vocations etc. as most of us probably are parents or may be so in the future.
Many of our human reactions/feelings are quite human and common, but we are called to rise above them very often. Because something is common in the human race does not thereby necessarily make things thus rightful. We are human and fallible and frequently fall and fail - and fallshort of the ideal, myself especially, which is not a reason to not uphold and state the ideal at all times. And ideally to live it and preach the Gospel without words.

TS
 
Why do people go to Sports forums and dissect the 3-4 defense in Football or discuss Statistics in Baseball when they have no interest in playing or coaching?

Point being, people have hobbies and passions outside of their occupation and if it makes them happy and fulfills them, more power to them.

Plus, if someone is going to spend hours learning something, what better subject is there than Religion/Theology?
 
Has this been answered, addressed? - i.e. are laity called to imitate the spirituality of religious? And if so, should we not be informed on all aspects of religious life?
A good place to find the answer to this is in John Paul’s encyclical Vita Consacrata. He lays out what is proper to the laity and the consecrated life. I picture them as a Venn Diagram, with overlaps. The point of intersection is the Gospel and the call to holiness. Outside, on either side, is the means to achieve what the Gospel demands. The means are different for the secular man and woman and the consecrated man and woman.
It may be quite human to feel a certain resentment if one person feels that another is only prying - but we are called to rise above our strictly human feelings.
Both parts are very true. It is human to feel discomfort or even annoyance. It is also true that holiness demands that we struggle to overcome it. On the flip side, we must be sensitive not to be the trigger of such feelings in others.
There is nothing in existence in The Church to my knowledge that asks lay people not to address the issue of religious life in all its aspects - in fact we are asked to be informed Catholics and perhaps especially on the issue of religious vocations etc. as most of us probably are parents or may be so in the future.
I believe that knowing about and understanding the consecrated life is part of a solid catechesis.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Why do people go to Sports forums and dissect the 3-4 defense in Football or discuss Statistics in Baseball when they have no interest in playing or coaching?

Point being, people have hobbies and passions outside of their occupation and if it makes them happy and fulfills them, more power to them.

Plus, if someone is going to spend hours learning something, what better subject is there than Religion/Theology?
This is the most common sense response that I have seen to date. Thank you.

It is one that is certainly permitted to the secular man or woman. For religious, that’s another story. Some charisms allow for this and others do not, because it interferes with the vision and mission of the founder.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I should clarify something that I said before, because I can see that my choice of words has communicated something different that what I intend.

---- cut --------

Let us always remember that without love between us: clergy, laity and religious, there is little hope for transforming the world.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Thanks Br. JR, for your response.🙂

albertziggy:rolleyes:
 
Quoting JReducation
A good place to find the answer to this is in John Paul’s encyclical Vita Consacrata. He lays out what is proper to the laity and the consecrated life. I picture them as a Venn Diagram, with overlaps. The point of intersection is the Gospel and the call to holiness. Outside, on either side, is the means to achieve what the Gospel demands. The means are different for the secular man and woman and the consecrated man and woman.
Thank you for the response, Brother. Another good place to discern the relationship between laity and clergy, religious etc. is “Apostolicam Actuositatem” (Decree on the Apostolate of the Laity)
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651118_apostolicam-actuositatem_en.html

Vita Consecrata is certainly well worth reading: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_25031996_vita-consecrata_en.html
Quote: " In the unity of the Christian life, the various vocations are like so many rays of the one light of Christ, whose radiance "brightens the countenance of the Church."The laity*,* by virtue of the secular character of their vocation, reflect the mystery of the Incarnate Word particularly insofar as he is the Alpha and the Omega of the world, the foundation and measure of the value of all created things. "End quote.

These documents point out, I think, that all the various vocations, states of life, calls in The Church are complementary each in their unique way and of course since their foundation is the work of The Holy Spirit continuing the Mission of Christ to the Glory of The Father. I did find the section on new expressions of consecrated life in Vita Consecrata particularly interesting, as well as the section in the same document on secular institutes which are also consecrated life. It is quite some time since I referred to this document and I find that my interest, or what has struck me, has shifted.
Both parts are very true. It is human to feel discomfort or even annoyance. It is also true that holiness demands that we struggle to overcome it. On the flip side, we must be sensitive not to be the trigger of such feelings in others.
For sure, Charity must prevail always and everywhere in all things regardless and on ‘both sides of the coin’ no matter which way it flips, without surrendering truth to do so. I think the Desiderata is particularly beautiful with many wisdoms for life and living it marilee.us/desiderata.html
Quote “Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant, they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.” - "With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams; it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy."End Quote.

I did read somewhere or other that The Holy Spirit sends difficult people into a community to challenge and polish the virtue of other members of the community - this caused me to smile no little and develop a new perspective and strive for a new attitude on those I may find difficult. Mea culpa.
I believe that knowing about and understanding the consecrated life is part of a solid catechesis.
Absolutely for both those who may be considering religious life and for those who are not considering a move in that direction, but retain interest for one reason or another.

Thank you again, Brother, for the response -

TS
 
See, this I don’t understand… How can you say someone commits a mortal sin, tell them that it is, without being judgmental??? This is contradictive… :confused:
If one were to tell someone that he is mortally sinning, it is to help him to stop by hopefully seeing the error of his ways. God wants to us to hones with one another but not to judge. It seem to be a little contradictory at first, but it is really not at all.
 
If one were to tell someone that he is mortally sinning, it is to help him to stop by hopefully seeing the error of his ways. God wants to us to hones with one another but not to judge. It seem to be a little contradictory at first, but it is really not at all.
Mortal sin requires three conditions as the Catholic Catechism states:

1857 For a *sin *to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131
1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.
1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin. 1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

Very often when we state something is a mortal sin, what we really mean is that it is “grave matter” and potentially mortal sin if the other two conditions for mortal sin are met. As Catholics, I think we have rather got into the bad habit of saying “It is a mortal sin” when what is correct is “It is grave matter and potentially mortal sin”. To state that another has committed a mortal sin is judgemental I think (for we are really saying all three conditions are present and that the person has chosen to damn their soul) but it is not at all meant to be so most often. Rather, what we actually mean is that something is grave matter and potentially mortal sin - hence a most serious matter indeed. We need to get into the habit of saying that grave matter is grave matter and not mortal sin unless it actually is and we know that the other two conditions are clearly present and this can only happen if the person concerned tells us that they were present. Of course, if someone shares with us that they had full knowledge and gave full consent to grave matter then we should inform them out of love, out of Charity, that what they have done sounds like mortal sin - and as YoungThinker has pointed out God calls us to honesty with each other and certainly to warn each other, if necessary and out of love for that other, that their soul sounds as if it is in dreadful peril and if a Catholic that they need to go to Confession as soon as possible urgently. And to pray for them.

TS
I think probably that this subject probably belongs in a Moral Theology forum.
 
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