Questions about Rules

  • Thread starter Thread starter ChristinaBerry
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

ChristinaBerry

Guest
I would appreciate some help with a couple of things. I would like a definitive answer on two questions that seem to cause arguments. Are women allowed to wear pants, and are Catholics allowed to celebrate Halloween? Me being a woman and with Halloween approaching, I would like to make principled decisions about these things.

Thanks so much!
 
I would appreciate some help with a couple of things. I would like a definitive answer on two questions that seem to cause arguments. Are women allowed to wear pants, and are Catholics allowed to celebrate Halloween? Me being a woman and with Halloween approaching, I would like to make principled decisions about these things.

Thanks so much!
Are women allowed to wear pants? Technically yes. The question you have to ask yourself is if it is the best decision that is most pleasing to Our Lord. For that I would recommend a book by Colleen Hammond called Dressing with Dignity. It can be found here: tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/669/ . She explains the issues of modesty as it applies to women very well and also explains the historical changes that occasioned women wearing pants. Basically, I think pants tend to be immodest (unless they are not tight at all and even then it isn’t as modest as a modest dress/skirt) and not feminine. The fact is that a skirt/dress of sufficient length (at least to cover the knees when sitting) and that is not tight does not show the figure of the woman and is very feminine. The question involves who the eyes can be drawn and with pants the butt and crouch are areas that draw the eyes but this does not happen with a modest skirt or dress. Not to mention women really look like women in modest skirts/dresses appearing much like a man in pants! Colleen Hammond explains it much better.

Halloween I think is much more subjective and varies by who you ask. Personally, I refuse to celebrate a day that extols darkness and evil; a day when children dress up like devils (even if some balance it by dressing like dinosaurs).

Pax Christi tecum.
 
Halloween is, of course, the eve of All Saints Day. Rather than celebrating darkness, how about celebrating our connection to the communion of saints? I personally see nothing wrong with dressing up as dinosaurs or anything else that’s fun, but if you want to make it truly positive, dress up as your favorite saint.
 
I sometimes wonder if more extreme attitudes about modesty come from a very negative view of the body. Our bodies are God’s creation. They are good and there is nothing wrong with physical attraction. We have a fallen nature yes, and so lust is something we have to watch out for so that attraction doesn’t become sin. But indeed there are modern fashions for women that are modest. It would be harder for younger women and girls. Most fashions for kids and young adults just scream “i’m a sex object, look at me!”. So I think there has to be a balance. A woman is going to be just as distracting walking around like she stepped out of Little House on the Prarie. And then for some people modesty becomes a litmus test for “true” Catholicism. I’ve seen people in traditional parishes become so uncharitable over this issue. We would spend hours talking about how this particular person wasn’t really Catholic and pleasing to our Lord because she wore high heels. It was ridiculous and totally unchristian.
 
I sometimes wonder if more extreme attitudes about modesty come from a very negative view of the body. Our bodies are God’s creation. They are good and there is nothing wrong with physical attraction. We have a fallen nature yes, and so lust is something we have to watch out for so that attraction doesn’t become sin. But indeed there are modern fashions for women that are modest. It would be harder for younger women and girls. Most fashions for kids and young adults just scream “i’m a sex object, look at me!”. So I think there has to be a balance. A woman is going to be just as distracting walking around like she stepped out of Little House on the Prarie. And then for some people modesty becomes a litmus test for “true” Catholicism. I’ve seen people in traditional parishes become so uncharitable over this issue. We would spend hours talking about how this particular person wasn’t really Catholic and pleasing to our Lord because she wore high heels. It was ridiculous and totally unchristian.
First of all, no one who takes what you say are “extreme positions on modesty” are saying the body is bad. I am guessing my stance would be considered extreme to you (women shouldn’t wear pants, should be covered meaning no sleeveless tops, no tight clothing, no low cut tops, longer skirts/dresses) but it is only in modern times that such fashions have become acceptable. Regardless, it is precisely because the body is so good and beautiful that it must be covered and protected! So many people take this stance: people want to hide the body because they think it is bad and sinful. No! No no no. The body is so very, very good that it needs to be protected from abuse. Everything that is good and beautiful is protected: the most Blessed Sacrament is in a tabernacle with a veil, diamonds are found hidden in the ground and not on trees. Because of fallen human nature, people are very prone to abuse other people. Covering oneself and doing whatever is necessary to not lead another into temptation is a great act of charity and is necessary in our current state.

Secondly, a woman who looks like a Little House on the Prairie women would be less likely to incite temptation in others. That is a fact. I would think any good Catholic woman would rather protect herself and others from sin than keep up with modern fashions. That said, however, there are very modest options - longer skirts/dresses, not too tight tops that cover the body, etc. - that are stylish and beautiful. My parish has tons of women who dress modest, who are covered, who don’t fit in with modern fashion but who nonetheless dress beautifully. But if a woman’s desire is to fit in with everyone else, to keep up with what the world thinks is beautiful, then she’s going to be in trouble because the standards of the world are opposed to that of the Church.

These are important issues so it is no wonder people get heated about it. That’s no excuse to forsake charity however. Our Lady said at Fatima that many fashions would be introduced that offend Our Lord greatly. We need to take her warning seriously.

Pax Christi tecum.
 
I would appreciate some help with a couple of things. I would like a definitive answer on two questions that seem to cause arguments. Are women allowed to wear pants, and are Catholics allowed to celebrate Halloween? Me being a woman and with Halloween approaching, I would like to make principled decisions about these things.

Thanks so much!
  1. I presume you mean “Are women allowed to wear pants to Mass” as oppossed to in general. Yes, OK to Mass, as long as they are in good taste (clean, unripped).
  2. Since Halloween is not a holiday or religious event, Catholics don’t “celebrate” Halloween, but we are allowed to participate in secular activities associated with that day, again, as long as they are in good taste.
 
I would appreciate some help with a couple of things. I would like a definitive answer on two questions that seem to cause arguments. Are women allowed to wear pants, and are Catholics allowed to celebrate Halloween? Me being a woman and with Halloween approaching, I would like to make principled decisions about these things.

Thanks so much!
The bottom line is that the Catholic Church has no law forbidding women from wearing pants to mass or anywhere else, and no law forbidding Catholics from participating in Halloween activities.

Some women are not comfortable wearing pants to mass (or even in public), and choose not to do so. They feel more modest in other clothing. However, since this is not a Church law, they must remember not to criticize or judge women who do wear pants.
The same goes for participation in Halloween activities.

The reason why there are such arguments about these is because there is no law regarding them, so people are free to make their own decision about what they think is best for their own soul, and different people make different decisions. When charity is forgotten, these arguments can become quite ugly.
 
First of all, no one who takes what you say are “extreme positions on modesty” are saying the body is bad. I am guessing my stance would be considered extreme to you (women shouldn’t wear pants, should be covered meaning no sleeveless tops, no tight clothing, no low cut tops, longer skirts/dresses) but it is only in modern times that such fashions have become acceptable. Regardless, it is precisely because the body is so good and beautiful that it must be covered and protected! So many people take this stance: people want to hide the body because they think it is bad and sinful. No! No no no. The body is so very, very good that it needs to be protected from abuse. Everything that is good and beautiful is protected: the most Blessed Sacrament is in a tabernacle with a veil, diamonds are found hidden in the ground and not on trees. Because of fallen human nature, people are very prone to abuse other people. Covering oneself and doing whatever is necessary to not lead another into temptation is a great act of charity and is necessary in our current state.

Secondly, a woman who looks like a Little House on the Prairie women would be less likely to incite temptation in others. That is a fact. I would think any good Catholic woman would rather protect herself and others from sin than keep up with modern fashions. That said, however, there are very modest options - longer skirts/dresses, not too tight tops that cover the body, etc. - that are stylish and beautiful. My parish has tons of women who dress modest, who are covered, who don’t fit in with modern fashion but who nonetheless dress beautifully. But if a woman’s desire is to fit in with everyone else, to keep up with what the world thinks is beautiful, then she’s going to be in trouble because the standards of the world are opposed to that of the Church.

These are important issues so it is no wonder people get heated about it. That’s no excuse to forsake charity however. Our Lady said at Fatima that many fashions would be introduced that offend Our Lord greatly. We need to take her warning seriously.

Pax Christi tecum.
I do not believe that your position on modesty is extreme. I do not have children, but if I did and i had a daughter, I can guarantee you that she would not be wearing clothes from any of the popular retail stores in the malls. Many people think those fashions are cute and stylish. The word that usually comes to my mind is sluty. My problem with folks on the issue of modesty is when we start judging. While I may not like the way a girl/woman is dressed I can not therefore say that she is a bad Catholic and isn’t pleasing to our Lord. Perhaps she is ignorant of the Church’s traditional standards of modesty? I think the argument of whether a woman should wear pants or not should be a matter of personal opinion and conscience, not absolute truth since the Church does not have a definative teaching on the subject.
 
The bottom line is that the Catholic Church has no law forbidding women from wearing pants to mass or anywhere else, and no law forbidding Catholics from participating in Halloween activities.
All Saints’ Day was moved from March to November in order to transform Halloween. And the Mexican Days of the Dead were moved from August to November, to coincide with All Saints’ and All Souls’ Days. I think it was wise of the Church to turn these sorts of holidays onto their heads, rather than to try to stamp them out. They reflect the need people have to actually look at the macabre once in awhile.

As long as Halloween is a time to spit in death’s eye and to rob darkness of its power to induce fear, a time to make a little fun of our own fear of and discomfort around the unknown, the unusual, and the “creepy”, or just a time to make fun of ourselves and lighten up a bit, there is a lot right with it. There are people who could stand to spend the day with fake blood on the side of their heads, around the fake arrow going through their brains.

But please…it is not a time to throw away all boundaries. It is not a time to dabble in the occult or wink at sin, to imagine that the Evil One deserves his day, or to imply that it is always the sinners who laugh and the saints who have on the long faces. None of these costumes that throw modesty to the wind, that attempt to mock what is holy or elevate that which is base. None of this putting spider webs on the altar for a children’s Mass, either, or trying to make orange into a liturgical color. Halloween has its uses within Christianity, but it isn’t a liturgical holiday, and shouldn’t be made into one.
 
A woman who looks like a Little House on the Prairie women would be less likely to incite temptation in others. That is a fact. I would think any good Catholic woman would rather protect herself and others from sin than keep up with modern fashions. That said, however, there are very modest options - longer skirts/dresses, not too tight tops that cover the body, etc. - that are stylish and beautiful. My parish has tons of women who dress modest, who are covered, who don’t fit in with modern fashion but who nonetheless dress beautifully. But if a woman’s desire is to fit in with everyone else, to keep up with what the world thinks is beautiful, then she’s going to be in trouble because the standards of the world are opposed to that of the Church.
There are activities that are difficult to do in a modest dress. The dress of the “Little House on the Prairie” women had a lot to do with the fact, too, that they didn’t have SPF 50 back then, and that in those days, tans betrayed a woman whose family’s means required her to do work that ladies of any means at all were not required to do. Covering the body was sometimes for modesty, of course, but also sometimes for vanity. Even women who wore their necklines down to there at night kept the sun off of their white bosoms by day.

There is no prohibition on men and women wearing clothes that are in any way similar. You only have to look at statues of Our Lady and of the Sacred Heart to see that. There wasn’t a “blue for girls, red for boys” rule back then, but all that differs in those garments is the veils for the women.

In 2008, pants are daily work attire for both men and women. There are pants that do not immodestly put a woman’s body on exhibit. Modesty requires only that garments be chosen that don’t make the person into an object. The exact cuts that fall within these boundaries depend on the culture.
 
In 2008, pants are daily work attire for both men and women. There are pants that do not immodestly put a woman’s body on exhibit. Modesty requires only that garments be chosen that don’t make the person into an object. The exact cuts that fall within these boundaries depend on the culture.
Sorry but I disagree. The eyes are drawn to one’s rear end or to the crouch when a woman wears pants more than in a skirt or dress that is modest. Why? Because a modest dress doesn’t cling to the shape of the behind which with pants can draw the eyes. In a modest dress there is nothing there to see. Also, the crouch cannot be seen.

And actually modest doesn’t just required that the garments don’t make the person into an object, it also requires that the shape and form of the body remain hidden. A modest dresses accomplished that while pants, which generally are fairly tight, do not.

It doesn’t matter if it is 1008 or 2008. Modesty is modesty.

You can disagree all you’d like and I know many do but it’s true. With a modest dress there is simply nothing to see below the waist because there is no shape or form that can be seen.

Pax Christi tecum.
 
Sorry but I disagree. The eyes are drawn to one’s rear end or to the crouch when a woman wears pants more than in a skirt or dress that is modest. Why? Because a modest dress doesn’t cling to the shape of the behind which with pants can draw the eyes. In a modest dress there is nothing there to see. Also, the crouch cannot be seen.

And actually modest doesn’t just required that the garments don’t make the person into an object, it also requires that the shape and form of the body remain hidden. A modest dresses accomplished that while pants, which generally are fairly tight, do not.

It doesn’t matter if it is 1008 or 2008. Modesty is modesty.

You can disagree all you’d like and I know many do but it’s true. With a modest dress there is simply nothing to see below the waist because there is no shape or form that can be seen.

Pax Christi tecum.
I do agree that modest dressing should be more of a concern for everyone. However, I wonder why this topic seems always to focus only on women. Tight fitting pants and tops are not the exclusive preserve of females. If one believes that the shape and form of the body ought to remain hidden in order that no one be tempted into impure thoughts, perhaps men ought to go back to the old tradition of wearing long dresses as well. 😉
 
It doesn’t matter if it is 1008 or 2008. Modesty is modesty.
This is actually incorrect. I think you have modesty confused with purity. Modesty is one way of protecting purity, but modesty is an interesting virtue because it is concerned entirely with the perceptions of others. These perceptions change with the time, place, and situation. Thus, one may quite properly appear in underwear or nude before oneself, or one’s spouse, or one’s doctor because such garb is neither intended to nor likely to cause illicit thoughts in the mind of the viewer in that situation. However, appearing at the mall in 21st century America dressed (or undressed) in this way would quite likely encourage impure thoughts in others, so modesty would prevent us from doing so.

St. Thomas Aquinas even mentions the fact that although the people who start a trend in dress may sin against modesty, the trend can become so commonplace that it loses its abilty to draw illicit attention after a while. It is possible to then dress in that way without violating modesty, even though one would have sinned if one had followed such a trend when it still drew illicit attention.

Thus, it is incorrect to make a blanket statement that the same type of dress required for modesty in one time period and culture is the same that is required in all time periods and cultures.
 
I do agree that modest dressing should be more of a concern for everyone. However, I wonder why this topic seems always to focus only on women. Tight fitting pants and tops are not the exclusive preserve of females. If one believes that the shape and form of the body ought to remain hidden in order that no one be tempted into impure thoughts, perhaps men ought to go back to the old tradition of wearing long dresses as well. 😉
yawn As usual we come to this statement: “Why is everyone attacking the poor women???” The thing is men are more visually attracted so it’s more of an issue for men in how they visually see women. Women in general are not as visual, but more emotional, so they aren’t going to have as much of an issue. But obviously modesty is for men as much as women. You may want to recall too that the OP is asking about women wearing pants so it is only natural for the responses to focus on…well…women and pants.

Pax Christi tecum.
 
St. Thomas Aquinas even mentions the fact that although the people who start a trend in dress may sin against modesty, the trend can become so commonplace that it loses its abilty to draw illicit attention after a while. It is possible to then dress in that way without violating modesty, even though one would have sinned if one had followed such a trend when it still drew illicit attention.

Thus, it is incorrect to make a blanket statement that the same type of dress required for modesty in one time period and culture is the same that is required in all time periods and cultures.
Can you refer me to where St. Thomas says “although the people who start a trend in dress may sin against modesty, the trend can become so commonplace that it loses its abilty to draw illicit attention after a while”? Thank you in advance.

I think you’re taking St. Thomas too far. While he recognizes the aspect of local customs he does not do so to such an extent, it seems, as to make something that causes temptation to be acceptable. Notice below, from the Second Part of the Second Part of the Summa, St. Thomas says that a local custom may be the reason why a woman wears something that incites temptation but he says that such a custom cannot be commended - which means one ought not do it. Here he is speaking of a type of ignorance where the woman did not realize her dress would lead into temptation. But elsewhere he speaks of mortal sin or venial sin by causing another to lust by how one dresses.

Listening to you, it would seem St. Thomas is saying that if people were naked long enough then it would become common and thus not cause temptation since it was common. That is not correct because there is a degree of objectivity in modesty. There is a core, that that which should be hidden be not revealed, i.e. those parts of the body most related to procreation.

I cannot accept that just because something is long practiced that it is suddenly unable to cause attraction. Women have been dressing immodestly in our country for a long time but men are still attracted and allured. The issue is fallen human nature that is enticed by the body of the opposite sex. It is therefore going to cause temptation if those parts of the body are revealed regardless of how long it has been that way.

Article 2. Whether the adornment of women is devoid of mortal sin?

I answer that, As regards the adornment of women, we must bear in mind the general statements made above (Article 1) concerning outward apparel, and also something special, namely that a woman’s apparel may incite men to lust, according to Proverbs 7:10, “Behold a woman meeteth him in harlot’s attire, prepared to deceive souls.”

Nevertheless a woman may use means to please her husband, lest through despising her he fall into adultery. Hence it is written (1 Corinthians 7:34) that the woman “that is married thinketh on the things of the world, how she may please her husband.” Wherefore if a married woman adorn herself in order to please her husband she can do this without sin.

But those women who have no husband nor wish to have one, or who are in a state of life inconsistent with marriage, cannot without sin desire to give lustful pleasure to those men who see them, because this is to incite them to sin. And if indeed they adorn themselves with this intention of provoking others to lust, they sin mortally; whereas if they do so from frivolity, or from vanity for the sake of ostentation, it is not always mortal, but sometimes venial. And the same applies to men in this respect. Hence Augustine says (Ep. ccxlv ad Possid.): “I do not wish you to be hasty in forbidding the wearing of gold or costly attire except in the case of those who being neither married nor wishful to marry, should think how they may please God: whereas the others think on the things of the world, either husbands how they may please their wives, or wives how they may please their husbands, except that it is unbecoming for women though married to uncover their hair, since the Apostle commands them to cover the head.” Yet in this case some might be excused from sin, when they do this not through vanity but on account of some contrary custom: although such a custom is not to be commended.

Reply to Objection 3. As stated in the foregoing Article, outward apparel should be consistent with the estate of the person, according to the general custom. Hence it is in itself sinful for a woman to wear man’s clothes, or vice versa; especially since this may be a cause of sensuous pleasure; and it is expressly forbidden in the Law (Deuteronomy 22) because the Gentiles used to practice this change of attire for the purpose of idolatrous superstition. Nevertheless this may be done sometimes without sin on account of some necessity, either in order to hide oneself from enemies, or through lack of other clothes, or for some similar motive.

Pax Christi tecum.
 
And from Pius XII:

"The opinion which allows custom to dictate the question of modesty was refuted by Pope Pius XII in one short sentence: “There always exists an absolute norm to be preserved.”

Custom, of course, pays no attention to absolute norms; but, it is a follower of this false principle: “… the majority cannot go wrong.”

To say that “… modesty is a matter of custom” is just as wrong as to say that “… honesty is a matter of custom.”

What about those who teach “What is customary does not affect us?”

Pope Pius XII calls this application of an ancient principle to the virtue of modesty, “the most insidious of sophisms.” He calls attention to the fact that some people use this sophism “…in order to brand as ‘old fashioned’ the rebellion of honest people against fashions they consider too bold.”

The Pope’s pronouncements make no distinctions for various types of garments. Pius XII states “…an unworthy, an indecent mode of dress has prevailed” without any distinction of place, “on beaches, in country resorts, on the streets, etc.” (Aug. 29. 1954)

His quotation: “Vice necessarily follows upon public nudity,” applies as well to the beaches, or the streets, or resorts, or elsewhere."

Pax Christi tecum.
 
I think it’s important that folks not become too legalistic when it comes to this issue. I have seen modestly dressed Catholic girls as well as protestant pentacostal women who will only wear dresses, not cut their hair, and not wear make up but be horrible flirts and teases with the boys. Then there are the ladies who dress in nothing but Abercrombie or Gap but have a sincere love for their purity. My point being that purity of heart is more important than outward appearances. Some “traditional” women wear modest clothing just because it’s expected in their religious or cultural circles. Certainly if you know better, then more is expected of you, but as i said in an earlier post I think many good Catholic women are simply ignorant of traditional Catholic standards of dress. It’s great to be concerned about modest dress, but we don’t want to be like the Pharisees who were denounced by Our Lord for their obsession with outward ritual purity.
 
I think it’s important that folks not become too legalistic when it comes to this issue. I have seen modestly dressed Catholic girls as well as protestant pentacostal women who will only wear dresses, not cut their hair, and not wear make up but be horrible flirts and teases with the boys. Then there are the ladies who dress in nothing but Abercrombie or Gap but have a sincere love for their purity. My point being that purity of heart is more important than outward appearances. Some “traditional” women wear modest clothing just because it’s expected in their religious or cultural circles. Certainly if you know better, then more is expected of you, but as i said in an earlier post I think many good Catholic women are simply ignorant of traditional Catholic standards of dress. It’s great to be concerned about modest dress, but we don’t want to be like the Pharisees who were denounced by Our Lord for their obsession with outward ritual purity.
We cannot separate intent from action like that though. Sure I can see in ignorance if someone doesn’t know but we can’t say, “Well she loves purity in here heart even though she wears tiny tops and mini skirts.” How much can you love purity and chastity if you wear clothes like that? Then that leads to: “Well I didn’t intend to tempt so if they are tempted it it their problem.” We all need both: purity in intention as well as in action.

Pax Christi tecum.
 
I would appreciate some help with a couple of things. I would like a definitive answer on two questions that seem to cause arguments. Are women allowed to wear pants, and are Catholics allowed to celebrate Halloween? Me being a woman and with Halloween approaching, I would like to make principled decisions about these things.

Thanks so much!
Yes and yes. And don’t let anybody tell you different.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top