Questions about Rules

[peregrinator_it]

Really? Cardinal Siri in 1960 seems to have some criticisms of pants in women (olrl.org/virtues/pants.shtml).

Cardinal Siri’s comments mainly object to the wearing of men’s clothing by women. He says himself that that point is his main concern, more than how revealing pants in general are.

It is no longer 1960. Pants are no longer men’s clothes only.

I would really like to see a logical response to this and the objections I’ve already given, namely:

Were ordinary people who wore the clothing of the time during the 1700s and early 1800s immodest? (Dresses for women, while long, revealed quite a bit of cleavage; men wore tight breeches.)

How do you explain the higher standards of morality (particularly sexual morality) accepted by secular society at that time, if the fashions were immodest?

How do you reconcile the “no-pants” argument with current Church teaching (specifically CCC 2521 and 2524)?

…But I should know better than to expect any rational response, as I’ve gotten none thus far.

(Which is why I am disinclined to spend time on the NOR article; I’ve read its clones many times and none of them address the above; they all simply posit a universal dress code–which is whatever the author thinks is appropriate.)

I don’t know what should be said in your situation quite honestly. I don’t have the answer since no one I’ve talked to has ever said that to wear a modest dress or skirt presents a danger to their well-being. It’d take some one better than I.

Ordinarily I try to take what happens on these forums lightly, but this time I am simply shocked and appalled.

I am used to proponents of “no pants for women” arguments living in their own little world (they’re usually women who live very sheltered lives) and I’m used to unwillingness to take others’ concerns seriously or to entertain the idea that there are people who must live differently than they do; I’m also used to the judgemental attitude and even cattiness that seems to creep into these discussions.

The argument is often made is that men who value this dress code have better attitudes towards women than those who don’t, but the response “I don’t know what to say if you have a legitimate reason to wear pants; you’re just out of luck; you can either “sin” or put yourself at risk” seems to me to be an attitude that reveals more concern for the letter of the law than for women, God’s creatures.

Forgive me, I am still appalled; I generally assume that Catholics, even the misguided ones, still generally have a more correct outlook on the world, but now I have to wonder. I would think that men, especially, having devoted so much thought to what women ought to wear, would have had womens’ well-being more in mind.

 

[RyanML]

Yeah, you’re right. What could possibly be demeaning about it?

http://www.mythinglinks.org/WomenFlee~cmp30~capt_1000565819pakistan_afghanistan.jpg

http://www.milesk.com/Rabiah in Burkah.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42219000/jpg/_42219226_aishahgetty300.jpg

What is demeaning is that in many Islamic countries, these women have no choice in what they wear. But whatever ways we might be disturbed by burkahs, that is merely cultural. There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with wearing a burkah.

 

[EasterJoy]

I never said it was binding but it has more force and weight than the average lay person.

Pax Christi tecum.

You are right. The OP shouldn’t worry if some average layperson tries to lay a restriction like that on her, either.

The Church allows women to wear pants.

Just curious…to the posters who disagree with “no pants” policy for women, what would you say constitutes immodest dress for our times?

Appropriate dress is not a particular length or a particular amount of yardage. It is a matter of prudential judgement.

You put the garment on, and you ask yourself if you are making your body into an object of gratification. You ask yourself if it is overly ostentatious, putting appearance ahead of virtue as an adornment. Is it going to make you into some sort of a competitor with other women for popularity or the attentions of their husbands? Does it make you look as if you wish you were much older or younger than you are? You ask if it makes it look as if you didn’t know where you were headed when you got dressed–wow, I thought I was going jogging in the cold, and here I am, at Mass!–and so on.

Are you showing off? Are you being slovenly? Are you trying to make yourself overly remarkable by your looks? (There is nothing wrong with it when someone occasionally remarks that you look nice!!!) Are you degrading yourself in any way? Conversely, is the garment so poorly fitted to you that you look like you’re going to apologize for breathing? If you are going to Mass, does your dress reflect the solemnity and importance of that? That doesn’t mean you have to have “Sunday best” for daily Mass, but that you should not use the fact that it is a weekday as an excuse for being sloppy.

There may be women who read that and decide the holiest thing they can wear is very much like a burqa. I say, more power to them. I have no complaint against Muslim women who choose to dress that way. In fact, if I were to go where a burqa is the normal dress for modest women, I would dress that way without being forced to. If I changed to a parish where the standards were stricter than my wardrobe currently is, I would probably conform, if possible, so as not to needlessly give scandal.

The Church does not compel such a strict interpretation, however.

 

[RyanML]

You are right. The OP shouldn’t worry if some average layperson tries to lay a restriction like that on her, either.

The Church allows women to wear pants.

Appropriate dress is not a particular length or a particular amount of yardage. It is a matter of prudential judgement.

You put the garment on, and you ask yourself if you are making your body into an object of gratification. You ask yourself if it is overly ostentatious, putting appearance ahead of virtue as an adornment. Is it going to make you into some sort of a competitor with other women for popularity or the attentions of their husbands? Does it make you look as if you wish you were much older or younger than you are? You ask if it makes it look as if you didn’t know where you were headed when you got dressed–wow, I thought I was going jogging in the cold, and here I am, at Mass!–and so on.

Are you showing off? Are you being slovenly? Are you trying to make yourself overly remarkable by your looks? (There is nothing wrong with it when someone occasionally remarks that you look nice!!!) Are you degrading yourself in any way? Conversely, is the garment so poorly fitted to you that you look like you’re going to apologize for breathing? If you are going to Mass, does your dress reflect the solemnity and importance of that? That doesn’t mean you have to have “Sunday best” for daily Mass, but that you should not use the fact that it is a weekday as an excuse for being sloppy.

There may be women who read that and decide the holiest thing they can wear is very much like a burqa. I say, more power to them. I have no complaint against Muslim women who choose to dress that way. In fact, if I were to go where a burqa is the normal dress for modest women, I would dress that way without being forced to. The Church does not compel such a strict interpretation, however.

Nicely said!

 

[Cat]

First of all, no one who takes what you say are “extreme positions on modesty” are saying the body is bad. I am guessing my stance would be considered extreme to you (women shouldn’t wear pants, should be covered meaning no sleeveless tops, no tight clothing, no low cut tops, longer skirts/dresses) but it is only in modern times that such fashions have become acceptable. Regardless, it is precisely because the body is so good and beautiful that it must be covered and protected! So many people take this stance: people want to hide the body because they think it is bad and sinful. No! No no no. The body is so very, very good that it needs to be protected from abuse. Everything that is good and beautiful is protected: the most Blessed Sacrament is in a tabernacle with a veil, diamonds are found hidden in the ground and not on trees. Because of fallen human nature, people are very prone to abuse other people. Covering oneself and doing whatever is necessary to not lead another into temptation is a great act of charity and is necessary in our current state.

Secondly, a woman who looks like a Little House on the Prairie women would be less likely to incite temptation in others. That is a fact. I would think any good Catholic woman would rather protect herself and others from sin than keep up with modern fashions. That said, however, there are very modest options - longer skirts/dresses, not too tight tops that cover the body, etc. - that are stylish and beautiful. My parish has tons of women who dress modest, who are covered, who don’t fit in with modern fashion but who nonetheless dress beautifully. But if a woman’s desire is to fit in with everyone else, to keep up with what the world thinks is beautiful, then she’s going to be in trouble because the standards of the world are opposed to that of the Church.

These are important issues so it is no wonder people get heated about it. That’s no excuse to forsake charity however. Our Lady said at Fatima that many fashions would be introduced that offend Our Lord greatly. We need to take her warning seriously.

Pax Christi tecum.

It’s interesting that you assume that a woman who is dressed in the “Little House” style wouldn’t be tempting to a man.

This is not correct.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

What is demeaning is that in many Islamic countries, these women have no choice in what they wear. But whatever ways we might be disturbed by burkahs, that is merely cultural. There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with wearing a burkah.

One can make the argument that many things are merely cultural. That doesn’t make them acceptable.

Female infanticide is merely cultural in those societies that prefer male children. It is also wrong.

When a culture says that a woman’s body must be hidden for fear of her effect on men, it is denying her the dignity due to all people. And that’s exactly what Strugglingalong is suggesting:

Only a modern person would find the idea of a covered up woman as demeaning. What is so demeaning about it?

 

[EasterJoy]

That is not true…although, my grandmother did say “The head of every household is the husband. The wife, though, is the neck, and can turn the head pretty much whichever direction she likes.”

Of course, there is such a thing as being a pain in one’s own neck, too.

 

[estesbob]

Praying the daily Rosary, going to Mass everyday, meditation, daily Scripture reading and spiritual reading, wearing the Brown Scapular, Eucharistic Adoration…etc. None of these things are binding on Catholics either, but how much has the Church benefited from these practices? More than we can know i’m sure. As I have said, for me women wearing pants and the right or wrong of celebrating Halloween are non issues. I have preferences and I do no feel as strongly about it as some, but those who go the extra mile out of love for the Lord should be seen as good examples, even if we disagree about some things

So we’re in agreement.Other that the fact I’m not the one telling women they can.t wear pants or celebrate Halloween - neither of which has anything whatsoever to do with love of the Lord and devotion

 

[estesbob]

I am having ear surgery next Tuesday and asked the doctor to write me a note that I can’t do any house or yard work for three months. I suspect my wife will tear it up

 

[notsmart]

I would appreciate some help with a couple of things. I would like a definitive answer on two questions that seem to cause arguments. Are women allowed to wear pants, and are Catholics allowed to celebrate Halloween? Me being a woman and with Halloween approaching, I would like to make principled decisions about these things.

Thanks so much!

I am not catholic, but I never read of anything so far (which means nada) that would lead me to believe you can not wear pants, unless you are attempting to impersonate a man, which I am sure you are not doing.
Halloween? I think its fine again caution I am not catholic, but unless you are doing more than taking your kids out for candy, and you are not doing anything else, I would say to use your conscience, and if you dont like it, don’t do it.

Intent is everything here.

Love,

Monica

 

[notsmart]

I possible to say. Something that may be very immodest when worn to church church may be very modest on the beach.

What does this have to do with pants and halloween?

Immodest dress is not this OP’s concern. I bet she is covered up to the max based on her thread.

She sounds like a conservative.

 

[notsmart]

I am dissapointed seeing the posts with muslim women in this case. It’s making me turned off to Catholics, and its mean spirited.

 

[estesbob]

I am dissapointed seeing the posts with muslim women in this case. It’s making me turned off to Catholics, and its mean spirited.

 

[estesbob]

I am dissapointed seeing the posts with muslim women in this case. It’s making me turned off to Catholics, and its mean spirited.

With all due respect if you are going to form an opinion on a 2000-year-old faith based on the posting of anonymous Internet posters I suggest you really have no business participating in an online forum.

 

[notsmart]

With all due respect if you are going to form an opinion on a 2000-year-old faith based on the posting of anonymous Internet posters I suggest you really have no business participating in an online forum.

Really? How about my real life experiences with catholic school for my kid?

You have no idea what you speak of with due respect.

And, I still will not let all this keep me from being a catholic.

As I know the individual is not representative of the faith, or in all cases cares about it whatsoever.

I don’t think you know my personal circumstances to be so critical.

And, if you dont like me being on this forum, report me to the mods. Or stop threatning me to stop coming here for fellowship, and faith helps.

 

[estesbob]

Really? How about my real life experiences with catholic school for my kid?

You have no idea what you speak of with due respect.

And, I still will not let all this keep me from being a catholic.

As I know the individual is not representative of the faith, or in all cases cares about it whatsoever.

I don’t think you know my personal circumstances to be so critical.

And, if you dont like me being on this forum, report me to the mods. Or stop threatning me to stop coming here for fellowship, and faith helps.

You just made a post in another thread complaining how mean Catholics are to a poster who supports killing our children??. I dont care whether you post here or not-but if , as it appears, it is causing you a crisis of faith I suggest you move on.

 

[notsmart]

You just made a post in another thread complaining how mean Catholics are to a poster who supports killing our children??. I dont care whether you post here or not-but if , as it appears, it is causing you a crisis of faith I suggest you move on.

I See you are a spin doctor. I fought that woman also, as you know. But, I dont fight like some here do.

And, I have no reason to be here anymore- but I do come to learn. Have you taught me anything?

No.

So, let me be.

 

[estesbob]

I See you are a spin doctor. I fought that woman also, as you know. But, I dont fight like some here do.

And, I have no reason to be here anymore- but I do come to learn. Have you taught me anything?

No.

So, let me be.

Actually prefer to be called a witch doctor

I think you made a mistake in your last line-shouldn’t that be “let it be”

 

[notsmart]

Actually prefer to be called a witch doctor

I think you made a mistake in your last line-shouldn’t that be “let it be”

I’m not a beatles fan. And that song is not connected to Mary, even though I can see it that way. If I look beyond the individual catholics here that grind on me.

Peace

 

[estesbob]

I’m not a beatles fan. And that song is not connected to Mary, even though I can see it that way. If I look beyond the individual catholics here that grind on me.

Peace

Not connected to Mary!The refrain is" Mother Mary came to me"