Questions about the charismatic renewal...

[Salvatore123]

granny,

I have absolutely no idea if you do or do not “qualify” (using YOUR word - not mine) to determine if someone has a legitimate charism of speaking in tongues.

You have been saying for quite a while that the “speaking in tongues” exhibited during the time of the Apostles EXISTS TODAY.

Well, I simply want to know how do you KNOW that it exists today, and how would YOU distinguish someone who legitimately has the charism from someone who is either a fraud or merely emotionally excited?

Remember: “feelings” don’t cut it . . . I cannot and will not discuss someone’s feelings because that is absurd when it comes to proving something as legitimate. Only God and a person knows that person’s true “feelings”. But you claim that the “charism of speaking in tongues” is at work today and helps “renew” catholics in their faith. I want to know how do you do that, exactly?

 

[grannymh]

granny,

I have absolutely no idea if you do or do not “qualify” (using YOUR word - not mine) to determine if someone has a legitimate charism of speaking in tongues.

You have been saying for quite a while that the “speaking in tongues” exhibited during the time of the Apostles EXISTS TODAY.

It would be helpful if we both used the same terms. I believe that you are asking about the ordinary [common] gift of praying in Tongues or Prayer Tongues. This does exist today.

The first thing is to understand what Prayer Tongues is and is not. Prayer Tongues are sounds of any nature. They are not a human language. However, sometimes the sounds a person uses might sound similar to some known language. If you listen closely to when I pray in Tongues, you will probably hear the word lamb but it seems to be a blend like lamb-da or lamb-da-may. Often there is a cadence to my prayers in Tongues, sometimes with a pause as if I were ending a sentence in a foreign language.

To back up a bit. I have a close friend, who prayed in Tongues, who wanted me to go with a group of people to a Catholic Life in the Spirit Seminar which was one night a week for five or six weeks. This seminar was in a different city. Leaders in the diocese were giving it, so it was worth the drive. My favorite talk was on devotion to the Blessed Mother, the next favorite was on the need for the Sacrament of Reconciliation, especially if there were an unconfessed mortal sin, and the third favorite was on the importance of serving one’s parish. This seminar should not be confused with what JJKP777 was talking about.

The odd thing is that I do not remember much about the instructions about prayer tongues. Of course my friend talked to me about the gift. The last evening of the seminar would include people “praying over” a person which really means they are praying for that person. Prayer is prayer and if someone wanted to pray for my needs, more power to them. Personally, I wasn’t too interested in prayer tongues so I decided not to ask for that gift.

Asking the Holy Spirit for the gift of Prayer Tongues is basic. It is essential in determining a true gift of Prayer Tongues. Is there a special formula for asking the Holy Spirit? No. The desire to serve God by praying is what is needed. Prayer Tongues, following St. Paul, is always a prayer to God. Of course, one should have a general idea of what happens physically, not emotionally, when one uses Prayer Tongues. Though it is possible, not necessarily probable, that a powerful desire to love God in prayer may be sufficient to lead to the gift of prayer tongues without formal instructions.

What I am trying to say is that the first thing to determine the legitimacy of prayer Tongues is that the person has a true desire for the gift. Should everyone have this desire for prayer Tongues? Not necessarily, because the ultimate desire is for God, Himself. Each person needs to ask herself or himself – How am I putting God first in my life?

What happens if a person does not desire Prayer Tongues? Is she or he missing out on something? Of course not, because the ultimate desire is for Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. Prayer tongues does not substitute for the Real Presence of Jesus. There are valid reasons why someone may not desire Prayer Tongues. These should be honored.

Let’s stop here so you can think about this and ask your questions.

 

[JP_Francis]

How does one explain fruits of the Spirit like love, joy or peace if not through feelings?

I have been very involved in a charismatic prayer group for three years now. My experience has been incredibly positive and I have grown closer to God the Father, to Jesus Christ and to the Holy Spirit as a result. I love mass, I love Eucharistic adoration and I continue to grow in ability to love others.

I have experienced either personally or through others the gift of tongues, interpretation, discernment, words of knowledge, prophesy and healing.

I am surrounded by people that really live their faith, loving God and loving and serving the parish and each other.

I know I may be guilty of looking prideful, exclusive or elitist - and very sorry for anyone hurt by that, it is not intentional. I know i just really want others to experience what I have: the truly profound depth of how much God loves you!

 

[grannymh]

How does one explain fruits of the Spirit like love, joy or peace if not through feelings?

I have been very involved in a charismatic prayer group for three years now. My experience has been incredibly positive and I have grown closer to God the Father, to Jesus Christ and to the Holy Spirit as a result. I love mass, I love Eucharistic adoration and I continue to grow in ability to love others.

I have experienced either personally or through others the gift of tongues, interpretation, discernment, words of knowledge, prophesy and healing.

I am surrounded by people that really live their faith, loving God and loving and serving the parish and each other.

I know I may be guilty of looking prideful, exclusive or elitist - and very sorry for anyone hurt by that, it is not intentional. I know i just really want others to experience what I have: the truly profound depth of how much God loves you!

Welcome to CAF and to this thread.

Your positive experiences are valuable.

I believe that Salvatore123 is looking for the technical side of Prayer Tongues and not necessarily the fruits. I have started an answer in post 240.

At this point in the discussion, it would be great to hear about the fruits. In my humble opinion, it should be stipulated that love, joy, and peace are the fruits of many different avenues of prayer in the life of the Catholic Church. These fruits can also come from the corporeal and spiritual works of mercy. But most of all, they flow from the Eucharist…as you beautifully pointed out by your love for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and for Eucharistic Adoration.

 

[Salvatore123]

granny,

Thank you for your last response to me. Now, I feel that we can “talk” (although not in tongues ) and understand one another.

A couple of points/questions about what you said:

1. All of the “desires” you express that you say people in the charismatic movement strive for - aren’t those desires we should have anyway? To me, I cannot think of a better “catechism” of what we, as men, should strive to do, than that set forth in the Beatitudes by the Lord himself. I cannot think of one thing “omitted” from what he taught (obviously, nothing is omitted - it was Jesus ).
2. What YOU described yourself as doing is NOT what I have seen pentecostals and those such as Benny Hinn or Jimmy Swaggart do. I realize it may offend some people when I say this, and I am not intentionally trying to violate the rules of this forum, but I must admit that when watch them either on TV or the various Youtube videos, I cannot help but laught out loud when I see a “human wave” of people falling down when Benny Hinn waives his coat at them as though the Holy Spirit was being spread by his suit jacket. I find that - all at the same time - demeaning, disgusting, and funny - especially when it is done with people (especially children and the elderly) who are legitimately sick and believe something is happening to them through Hinn.

Now, I am not necessarily asking you for a response, because you may be uncomfortable answering, so feel free to consider this to be rhetorical: how does one know THEY are frauds, or that the Holy Spirit is not legitimately acting through THEM when they carry on in such an obscene manner?

1. You said: “Prayer Tongues, following St. Paul, is always a prayer to God.”

Granny - ALL prayer, according to Catholic teaching, is prayer to God (or, theologically speaking - the “God-Head” where three persons in one exist). We don’t pray to statues, people, saints, or even the Eucharist. ALL prayer MUST be said to God. So I don’t understand why you seem to distinguish between “regular” prayer and “prayer tongues” by saying that the latter “is always a prayer to God”. What am I doing when I say the Our Father and the Glory Be in good old english?

1. Finally, and this is one that really threw me: “Personally, I wasn’t too interested in prayer tongues so I decided not to ask for that gift.”

I thought gifts from the Holy Spirit are GIVEN to men . . . it is then up to men to accept them???

The way in which you describe “gifts” from the Holy Spirit is that if they are not asked for, you don’t get them.

I don’t believe Padre Pio asked for the stigmata. I don’t believe any of the catholics who died and are “preserved” without embalming (as was the case for JPII) so as to be considered “incorruptibles” asked for that “gift”.

With respect, the way that I read what you described, it is though the Holy Spirit is the cafeteria server and we humans walk through the line and pick and choose whatever the Holy Spirit is serving.

Please feel free to correct/comment on anything I said above.

P.S. - my WHOLE point about this thread and the subject matter is what you admitted in your last post to me: “What happens if a person does not desire Prayer Tongues? Is she or he missing out on something? Of course not, because the ultimate desire is for Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. Prayer tongues does not substitute for the Real Presence of Jesus. There are valid reasons why someone may not desire Prayer Tongues. These should be honored.”

I have always approached prayer and Catholicism in a way that the Catholic Church is VERY specific in how we should pray to God and live our lives. ANYTHING that detracts from the “ultimate desire” (your words) seems to be something that should be shunned. While I am not saying that what you do and experience is invalid (only YOU know what is in your heart), I see FAR more harm by “charismatic GROUPS” who seem more anxious to build their group membership than living lives serving God. You have clearly said that I am no less a Catholic than a charismatic person, and that one does NOT have to experience or “ask for” (again - your words) gifts from the Holy Spirit to be with God after death.

So I am left wondering (again - with respect): what is the point of “charismatic catholicism”? It seem to me nothing more than a label given to certain actions by certain people. People consider me “orthodox/traditional” because I attend a validly sanctioned Latin Mass each week, go to confession each week (I started doing that because, quite frankly, I thought to myself: if the pope - JPII at the time - feels the need to confess weekly, then why shouldn’t I?), and express NO dissent from ANY dogmatic teachings of the church. In other words, to use a modern phrase - I am not a “cafeteria catholic”.

I just SEE what happens when “charismatics” let themselves go with emotion and it begins to actually distract others near them. That is NOT permissible at Holy Mass (you raised this in my post about Christ the King church in Michigan), and I know my Catholicism well enough that even the Cardinal for that area does NOT have the authority to change the GIRM. If one breaks out in “speaking in tongues” so that it is loud enough to be heard by someone next to them, and the prayer is NOT following what the missal states should be said at that moment, then that person is (1) violating the order of Holy Mass, (2) calling attention to himself (whether intentionally or not), and (3) disrupting those near him who want to pay attention to the Mass and not to someone making sounds that no one can understand.

Cardinal Arinze, in his last trip to America, in the closing session where he was taking part in a question/answer session, talked about people deviating from the GIRM. He said it was illicit and should be stopped. And he mentioned the modern practice of people imitating the priest when their hands (orans position) and reciting the Eucharistic Prayer out loud. Those are RESERVED for the priest - NOT the congregation. I, as a layman, do NOT have the power to consecrate the bread and wine - only the priest does. I have NO business reaching over and grabbing someone’s hand when I begin praying the Our Father. This, to me, is a sign of people wanting to act like the priest, when they should be listening to the priest.

 

[bradleesargent]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” “benefit.” Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, **such as the gift of miracles or of tongues **- charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.

 

[grannymh]

granny,

Thank you for your last response to me. Now, I feel that we can “talk” (although not in tongues ) and understand one another.

A couple of points/questions about what you said:

1. All of the “desires” you express that you say people in the charismatic movement strive for - aren’t those desires we should have anyway? To me, I cannot think of a better “catechism” of what we, as men, should strive to do, than that set forth in the Beatitudes by the Lord himself. I cannot think of one thing “omitted” from what he taught (obviously, nothing is omitted - it was Jesus ).

I am having problems with the internet so this may be all I can reply to until I get my equipment fixed.

As I recall, our discussion is limited to the ordinary (common) gift of Prayer Tongues and how can one determine a legitimate gift.

Yes, there are all kinds of “desires” that people strive for. I have been referring to the spiritual and corporeal works of mercy. The Beatitudes are also very important. Yet, all of us should have God as our ultimate desire.

This is from my post 240.

“What I am trying to say is that the first thing to determine the legitimacy of prayer Tongues is that the person has a true desire for the gift. Should everyone have this desire for prayer Tongues? Not necessarily, because the ultimate desire is for God, Himself. Each person needs to ask herself or himself – How am I putting God first in my life?”

I need to add that there is a catch to this particular desire for the Gift of Prayer Tongues.
The catch is that one has to be willing to yield to the Holy Spirit. Yield in this sense means that a person
stops thinking this and that worldly stuff and relaxes so that thoughts of prayer can be present. Actually, this is that same thing we do when we pray the Our Father, Divine Mercy Chaplet, the Rosary, and participate in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, Etc. Etc.

I will have to wait until I get the computer problems fixed before I can say that about the only thing totally unique about the Prayer Togues, is that we invite and then allow the Holy Spirit form the sounds.

 

[grannymh]

1. Finally, and this is one that really threw me: “Personally, I wasn’t too interested in prayer tongues so I decided not to ask for that gift.”

I thought gifts from the Holy Spirit are GIVEN to men . . . it is then up to men to accept them???

The way in which you describe “gifts” from the Holy Spirit is that if they are not asked for, you don’t get them.

Before I disappear…

There are gifts from the Holy Spirit and then there are gifts from the Holy Spirit and a few more gifts after that if one reads St. Paul’s teaching on the Mystical Body of Christ and then notes the variety of gifts in addition to what is known as the Charismatic or Classical list from St. Paul. For example the Isaiah Gifts from Old Testament are not the same as the Gift of Prayer Tongues from the New Testament.

Prayer Tongues is not one of the Classical gifts of St. Paul; however, St. Paul does describe it.

Post 240 is only on the gift of Prayer Tongues and the desire for it because that is the one you asked how can one tell if it is legitimate.

As for the other gifts, this granny can only deal with one at a time…

I

 

[Prieldedi]

How does one explain fruits of the Spirit like love, joy or peace if not through feelings?

I have been very involved in a charismatic prayer group for three years now. My experience has been incredibly positive and I have grown closer to God the Father, to Jesus Christ and to the Holy Spirit as a result. I love mass, I love Eucharistic adoration and I continue to grow in ability to love others.

I have experienced either personally or through others the gift of tongues, interpretation, discernment, words of knowledge, prophesy and healing.

I am surrounded by people that really live their faith, loving God and loving and serving the parish and each other.

I know I may be guilty of looking prideful, exclusive or elitist - and very sorry for anyone hurt by that, it is not intentional. I know i just really want others to experience what I have: the truly profound depth of how much God loves you!

I don’t say the following to offend charismatics, please accept my apologies if you feel offended.

Love, Joy, Peace, these feelings are universal, shared by all human beings whether they are religious or not. Are we to believe that love, joy and peace can be experienced just by Christians?

Discussing these feelings with another friend that says that the Holy Spirit is present in their group gatherings, I told her that the way her assembly react is similar to those I see in crowds at rock concerts, where you’ll see people feeling love (hugging each other), joy (everyone happy) and wishing peace for all (the two fingers peace sign from the 60’s). I’m sure the Holy Spirit is not in those rock concerts, but love, joy and peace are.

I believe the traditional way these fruits of the Spirit were experienced by Catholics was in their privacy. The individual grew in love for all, he carried his life with joy, and was at peace with everyone, but it was experienced privately, discreetly. The public signs of the fruits we see today were not the norm for almost 2000 years. This public showing of the fruits came from the Protestant camp, which rejected it when it first appeared about 100 years ago. Would it be that this “private” vs “public” showing of the fruits is where the real difference is?

We have the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector in *Luke 18:

10 “Two men went up to the Temple to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood by himself and said: ‘I thank you, God, that I am not like other people, grasping, crooked, adulterous, or even like this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week and give the tenth of all my income to the Temple.’
13 In the meantime the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast saying: ‘O God, be merciful to me, a sinner.’
14 I tell you, when this man went down to his house, he had been set right with God, but not the other. For whoever makes himself out to be great will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be raised.”*

I think you don’t see many individuals like the tax collector not only in the charismatic movement but in the Church in general, and the reason is ahead. I also believe that the appearance of the charismatic movement in the Catholic Church coincided with other changes and thus they were accepted easily, they got a free ride. The reason we don’t see the tax collector is that things now are done collectively and loudly, whether clapping, singing, holding hands, responding the priest’s prayers. Before it was “I” the individual attending Mass or praying (the tax collector), now it’s “Us” the collective where the “I” prays loudly (the Pharisee?) together with the rest. Before there was silence during Mass, you could pray like the tax collector if you felt you needed to, now you are expected to be part of the “community”, and it seems the louder the better.

This is another example of this push for the collectiveness, I know a priest who said to the congregation during a Sunday Mass, “I don’t want to see sad faces here, I don’t want to see closed mouths when we sing. If you don’t want to participate then you better stay at home”. Sadly, this mind set is almost everywhere, there is practically no church were this practice (fashion?) is not present, since most of our young priest were trained in a charismatic environment.

So my question would be: are charismatics sure that when Paul mentioned these gifts he meant they had to be made in public, all together at the same time and loudly?

 

[grannymh]

So my question would be: are charismatics sure that when Paul mentioned these gifts he meant they had to be made in public, all together at the same time and loudly?

Which gifts? You did use the plural.

If you are referring to St. Paul’s Classical List of nine Charismatic Gifts, simple common sense would say yes, these nine gifts are to be practiced in a group which by common sense would be public since people would be attending it to benefit from any one of these nine gifts. In addition, there are a lot more Holy Spirit Gifts which people seem to take for granted – Check out St. Paul’s teaching on the Mystical Body of Christ. Check out Chapter 14, Gospel of John.

If you are referring to the ordinary (common) Holy Spirit gift of praying to God in Tongues, then there are options depending on which charismatics you are referring to. Are you referring to Pentecostals, mainline Protestants, independent groups or covenant communities, Catholic charismatic individuals or groups of Catholic Charismatic individuals, either under the authority of the Bishop or independent of the diocese?

Personally, after reading hundreds and hundreds of posts, I believe that it is time for Catholics to realize that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is not Benny Hinn nor is it a Pentecostal religion or an independent Pentecostal group.

My apology for being cranky (feminine of snarky) But common sense should be used when speaking about the Catholic Church. At least the attempt to learn about it.

 

[grannymh]

1. You said: “Prayer Tongues, following St. Paul, is always a prayer to God.”

Granny - ALL prayer, according to Catholic teaching, is prayer to God (or, theologically speaking - the “God-Head” where three persons in one exist). We don’t pray to statues, people, saints, or even the Eucharist. ALL prayer MUST be said to God. So I don’t understand why you seem to distinguish between “regular” prayer and “prayer tongues” by saying that the latter “is always a prayer to God”. What am I doing when I say the Our Father and the Glory Be in good old english?

As long as I am being cranky (feminine of snarky) …
What would you say about someone praying in Spanish sounds or Latin sounds or miscellaneous sounds which are not “good old English” sounds?

Maybe I already know the answer. Could it be that some believe that personal prayer to God must be understood by listeners? If there are no Spanish people around to understand, then the prayer of someone speaking in Spanish sounds is trash and unacceptable to God.

Personally, my suggestion is that people who sincerely wish to understand the Catholic Charismatic Renewal should first spend extra time meditating on the meaning(s) of the Mystical Body of Christ. Then one should spend extra time searching for the hundreds (according to one commentator) of Holy Spirit Gifts so that in seeking understanding of St.
Paul’s teachings, one will have the correct terminology.

By the way, Catholics pray to the Eucharist because It is the Real Presence of Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Can any gift of the Holy Spirit be taught?

I’m asking because I do not know.

If a gift can be taught then I can imagine that a gift of unintlligible prayer could be taught.

If unintligible prayer cannot be taught then I would be warry anytime I heard it.

I go to a Charismatic group and have heard unintlligible prayer.

I am not able to do it.

I have experienced some powerful things at the meetings and I do believe that the Holy Spirit is involved.

Do I think that the Holy Spirit is always involved at such meetings? No.

Do I believe that sometimes the devil may be exercising his influence at charismatic meetings? Yes.

But do I believe that the devil also does that even in church during mass? Yes.

Do I respect Catholics who are very sceptical of the charismatic movement?

Of course–we should always be discerning.

Alot of times I can’t DISCERN everything.

but i also know that we shouldn’t LIMIT what God can do.

I think I should always pray “Lord I believe–help my unbelief–help me to always have the RIGHT kind of Hope concerning anything You choose to do–the hope that is completely in Your will and submissive to the authority of the Catholic Church–Oh Lord help me not to LIMIT in my mind what You would choose to do. Oh Holy Spirit give me whatever gifts you think at whatever time that will help me glorify the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”. Help me to glorify you Oh Lord–help me to never want any glory for myself–and Lord help me to discern if I should ever steer clear of any group that doesn’t glorify you and submit to the Catholic Church".

I know that the Holy Spirit DOES grant charisms–but they are for the building up of the Catholic Church–the gifts of the spirit are for our own spiritual life–CHARISMS are for the building up of the Catholic Church.

All of us Catholics believe that the Pope has the charism of infallability when he teaches on questions of faith and morals to the entire church from the chair of Peter.

Do I think that CHARISMS are rare? Yes–but I don’t think they never happen–just like I think that miracles sometimes do happen!

Gauge any charismatic group by its fruits–does it build up the Catholic Church? If the answer is yes then it might me legitimate–if it doesn’t then it isn’t legitimate.

The one thing I know is that meeting with a charismatic group once a week has helped me in my spiritual life. Maybe it could help you with yours–ask the Holy Spirit if it could help you.

I think charismatic groups are kind of like church approved private revelations–they can help you or not help you–you can believe or not believe–participate or not–be warry and not sin.

Some things are true and some aren’t and sometimes what is false is mixed in with what is true–that is true for the Catholic Church at large, too–not the church itself but people who claim to be in the Catholic Church.

 

[Salvatore123]

Granny,

You said: "As long as I am being cranky (feminine of snarky) …
What would you say about someone praying in Spanish sounds or Latin sounds or miscellaneous sounds which are not “good old English” sounds?

Maybe I already know the answer. Could it be that some believe that personal prayer to God must be understood by listeners? If there are no Spanish people around to understand, then the prayer of someone speaking in Spanish sounds is trash and unacceptable to God."

I believe that is an unfair characterization of what I have said and asked. I have NEVER said that something speaking IN ANOTHER RECOGNIZED LANGUAGE is “trash or unacceptable to God”.

I did not even say that GIBBERISH was “trash or unacceptable to God”.

I have said, all along, that I sincerely do not understand what is the POINT of “speaking in tongues”, characterized as “gibberish” (meaning, sounds unintelligible to ANYONE speaking or listening), if the purpose - as you said - was to “praise the Holy Spirit” and become closer to God.

My last long post (7/15 at 1:55 AM) was posted AFTER you described what you meant by “speaking in tongues”. I specifically pointed out how the priest CONDONED “speaking in tongues” DURING Holy Mass. You referred to how that might be happening during certain “parts” of Mass - I maintain that “speaking in tongues” out loud is NEVER proper during Holy Mass because it deviates from the GIRM and is a distraction to others trying to pay attention to the priest.

Many people on this forum are not old enough (I have no idea how old you are) to remember the solemnity of a Latin Mass. I have the luxury and good fortune to be able to attend a sanctioned one EVERY Sunday.

Based on every thing I have read, heard, and seen firsthand from “charismatic catholics”, I believe their first impression would be that such a Mass would be the most boring, uninspired Mass they have ever attended.

Do I believe you are sincere?

Yes.

Do I believe you when you say that when you pray, you talk to God?

Yes - I have nothing to suggest otherwise.

But you seem to discount those of us who have experienced “charismatic catholics” firsthand as aberrations.

When someone begins to deviate from the order of Mass in such a way that he calls attention to himself - even if “unintended” - I respectfully submit that is NOT proper. I don’t clap during Mass. I don’t go to a Mass where there is a full band playing in the choir loft. I don’t go to a Mass where we see people dancing down the aisles. I don’t go to a Mass where people imitate the priest with their hands as though THEY were consecrating the Eucharist with the priest (which they do NOT have the power to do).

If the charismatics practiced their “gift” in the manner YOU say that you do, then I don’t believe one person would say they have a problem with it. But when they form groups and try to encourage membership in those groups, and they distinguish themselves by having “special” Masses or even during a regular Mass with their hand gestures and speaking out loud in a manner that no one understands, that just rubs many people the wrong way.

My dear departed grandmother on my mother’s side NEVER participated in a Mass where people acted as I described above. If she were alive and went to Mass today and saw some of the things that one can easily look up and see for themselves on Youtube (where it was NOT made up - it was happening), she would be as lost in that Mass as she would be attending a Quaker service. Yet, even though I did not have a window into her soul, I would not hesitate to wager (for lack of a better word) that she was as devoted to God as anyone else. I still have one of her plastic rosaries and I kid you not when I say that she used that rosary SO MUCH that part of the plastic on the beads is literally worn down by the friction of her fingers on the beads from having said so many rosaries for decades.

Look at how much Pentecostalism is making inroads into the most catholic of countries in Central and South America. And when they are interviewed (I have seen the documentaries and talks by priests who have visited and studied the issue) as to why they left the catholic church, they said that it seemed “dead” to them, whereas the “hallelujah, Praise the Lord” shouting services made them “feel” like God was with them but not at Mass.

I know that you have tried to “connect” the modern “charismatic tongue-speakers” with those in the Apostolic age, but those I have experienced do NOT act in the manner you describe for yourself.

In your pointed post aimed at me, you set up a strawman argument by saying that if someone started praying in Spanish and no one was around to understand, then it must be trash. You are far too intelligent to make such an argument and claim it is a logical outcome of what I have been saying. Simply because no one who understood Spanish might be present does NOT mean it is gibberish.

I have ALWAYS distinguished between uttering sounds that are unintelligible in ANY language and to ANYONE who might appear to listen, and praying in a recognized language that SOMEONE could interpret.

Whether you realize it or not, when a charistmatic catholic says that THEY are speaking to God on a “higher level” or on a “more personal level” than someone who is not, THEY THEY ARE SETTING THEMSELVES ABOVE OTHERS AROUND THEM.

If, as you acknowledged, that charismatics are no “better” than other catholics who pray ferverently to God in their own language, why are charismatic groups (at the least the ones I have encountered) so insistent that WE non-charismatics become like they are?

P.S. - why the absence of “charismatics” for literally centuries, and then suddenly, we have literally THOUSANDS of people who claim to have those charisms walking around today? To what, other than Vatican II and the gross misinterpretation by it by many people - including clergy - along with the rise of Pentecostalism throughout the 20th century, can one attribute these charism?

 

[grannymh]

I believe that is an unfair characterization of what I have said and asked. I have NEVER said that something speaking IN ANOTHER RECOGNIZED LANGUAGE is “trash or unacceptable to God”.

As I recall, it was an unrecognized language (miscellaneous sounds) which was being disputed. And nothing was said about a Mass in Latin when I responded about the order of the Mass which allows prayerful singing.

By the way, I am old enough to have learned Gregorian Chant which was common in the days of the high and low Latin Mass. I lived in the days of interracial justice and the political responsibility of Catholics. I also saw the return of the Advent Wreath and the increase in religious Christmas cards. And from my Dad, I learned the futility of beating one’s head against a wall without ever giving up.

 

[grannymh]

The one thing I know is that meeting with a charismatic group once a week has helped me in my spiritual life. Maybe it could help you with yours–ask the Holy Spirit if it could help you.

I think charismatic groups are kind of like church approved private revelations–they can help you or not help you–you can believe or not believe–participate or not–be warry and not sin.

Some things are true and some aren’t and sometimes what is false is mixed in with what is true–that is true for the Catholic Church at large, too–not the church itself but people who claim to be in the Catholic Church.

You are wise in looking at reality.

To answer your question. “Can any gift of the Holy Spirit be taught?”

In one sense, the ordinary (common) gift of praying in tongues needs to be taught because this is not a familiar gift of the Holy Spirit. But the individual prayer sounds themselves cannot be taught because these are formed by the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, one can learn how these prayer sounds are physically formed.

In reply to your comment: “If a gift can be taught then I can imagine that a gift of unintelligible prayer could be taught.” The difficulty here is the word unintelligible because it badly misrepresents the Holy Spirit’s action during the gift of prayer.

It is the action of the Holy Spirit which brings about praying in tongues. The action of the Holy Spirit can also fill in the “gaps” in our human attempts to pray. By this I mean that often in intercessory prayer, we pray that God’s will be done even if we do not know God’s will. The Holy Spirit, as He forms the Tongues used in prayer can also form the prayer according to God’s will.

Prayer is not an “either - or” situation – for example – either pray in tongues or else one is a failure. That is not the way God listens to prayer. God listens to the love in a person’s prayer. God listens to the sorrow in a person’s prayer. God listens to the needs in a person’s prayer. No words, no sounds of prayer are ever intelligible to God.

The value of praying in tongues is that a person becomes humble in giving over (yielding) his control of speech to the Holy Spirit. This is something like dying to self.
Another bad " either - or" is either pray in tongues* or* pray the Rosary. That is ridiculous. Three minutes of praying in tongues can be a wonderful introduction to meditating on the mysteries of the Rosary. Becoming humble is an excellent way to begin any of the forms of prayer and meditation.

Personally, I consider praying in tongues is far better than road rage.

 

[Melchior_1]

One thing that opponents of the charismatic renewal has yet to answer me is how exactly, in 2002, could the Companions of the Cross become a Society of Apostolic Life if charismaticism is so terrible.

 

[mlz]

Oh my, I’m finding that this topic brings in such anti charismatic positions and left to a few trying to help others understand…I think some people are closed to understanding this. I can only give witness to the reality of Christ being present in this. On the other hand I too have see abuses, so because of some abuses the Charismatic Catholics are being put down. Too bad. I am a very respectful Charismatic Catholic who only uses praying in tongues for private prayer. I pray in tongues when I can’t think how to pray and let the Holy Spirit pray through me in my “prayer language”. Say whatever you want, but for me it is precious and draws me closer to Him. It actually drew me closer to the Catholic faith which I converted to this past year

My love in Him,
mlz

 

[Salvatore123]

mlz,

And from what you describe, you will get NO opposition from me in what you do. You describe your prayer as private and respectful.

If you look at my posts, I am talking about people who claim “charismatic gifts”, in particular, “praying in tongues”, and yet cannot find anyone (as St. Paul INSTRUCTS us to do) to interpret what is being “prayed” in a voice heard by others.

Herein lies the rub - we have “charismatic catholics” as a “group name”, and yet those such as Granny who try to define who is or is not part of the “charismatic catholic renewal movement” or who “has charismatic gifts”.

With respect, WHO gets to determine which charismatic movement is legitimate or not?

I assure everyone reading this thread that EVERY member of a charismatic movement sincerely believes that THEY are “true charismatics”, and yet we know that they all cannot be . . . so, again, my question: who decides who has a legitimate charismatic gift?

If we leave such a determination up to ourselves and our emotions, we become protestant.

 

[Prieldedi]

Which gifts? You did use the plural.

If you are referring to St. Paul’s Classical List of nine Charismatic Gifts, simple common sense would say yes, these nine gifts are to be practiced in a group which by common sense would be public since people would be attending it to benefit from any one of these nine gifts. In addition, there are a lot more Holy Spirit Gifts which people seem to take for granted – Check out St. Paul’s teaching on the Mystical Body of Christ. Check out Chapter 14, Gospel of John.

If you are referring to the ordinary (common) Holy Spirit gift of praying to God in Tongues, then there are options depending on which charismatics you are referring to. Are you referring to Pentecostals, mainline Protestants, independent groups or covenant communities, Catholic charismatic individuals or groups of Catholic Charismatic individuals, either under the authority of the Bishop or independent of the diocese?

Personally, after reading hundreds and hundreds of posts, I believe that it is time for Catholics to realize that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is not Benny Hinn nor is it a Pentecostal religion or an independent Pentecostal group.

My apology for being cranky (feminine of snarky) But common sense should be used when speaking about the Catholic Church. At least the attempt to learn about it.

Precisely because I have learned about the charismatic movement is that my common sense tells me to take this movement with a grain of salt.

Briefly:

I know that the gift of speaking in tongues started (was reintroduced) with Charles Parham, one of two individuals credited with starting the Pentecostalism movement, the emphasis of which was the glossolalia or speaking in tongues. Parham believed the Holy Spirit communicated directly with him; he rejected religious authorities; he believed in the rapture; and an associate of him, William Seymour was directly involved in the development of the Azusa Street Revival, considered as the birthplace of the Pentecostal movement in the early 1900s in Los Angeles. Parham’s movement was initially rejected as heretic by the Assemblies of God, although later merged with other Pentecostal groups in 1914 to form the General Council of the Assemblies of God in the USA.

In the 1940’s William Branham went further founding the faith healing movement, and his teachings influenced the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements even more. He believed in divine revelation through astronomical constellations and commented that God wrote three Bibles: the zodiac, the great pyramid and the Holy Bible. Branham also also spoke strongly against religious organizations and he did not believe in the Trinity.

When Vatican II and the ecumenical movement which the Church sought in the 1960s arrived, the charismatics were by now prominent in the protestant churches through the influence of evangelists like Jack Coe, Oral Roberts and A. A. Allen, who had gain notoriety in the 1950s. It is in this ecumenical gatherings after Vatican II that the charismatic movement enters the Catholic Church, and when it does is in groups of lay Catholics.

To me this is the 1520s all over again. Today as then, some people perceive that the Church has to be renovated, to be reformed… once again. A new form of spiritualism is sought, is desired, and when you desire and seek you will find, but in spiritual matters it’s no guarantee that it will come from God. If this movement had been born INSIDE the Catholic Church perhaps we wouldn’t be having this conversation. But it wasn’t, and this is my objection. It didn’t enter the Church through the front door; initially it was not accepted by priests although now you’ll see them as part of the movement.

The protestant charismatic movement did not received the gifts from the Holy Spirit, they “went” for them and came back saying “we have them”. They read the Bible and read about tongues in early Christian life and they wanted them, they had the desire for them, so they “grab” them, tongues were not “given” to them. This is to me very important. No discernment was made, no testing of the spirit was made, they said “this is the Holy Spirit” and that was that. Amazing!

So this is in a nutshell what I have learned about the charismatic movement. It is very hard for me to accept that it comes from the Holy Spirit when no discernment was made at all. St. Augustine said that Pentecost happened once, what took place in and after Pentecost ceased to exist by his time for obvious reasons. Catholicism was all over the known world and it was being taught to all in all known languages. There were Catholic priests that had learned new languages so there was no need for the Holy Spirit to give them this gift when they had learned the languages already. Other Church Fathers that dealt with this issue understood “tongues” as languages. Why is it different now?

Isn’t it odd that some Catholics who didn’t like the Mass in which the priest spoke in a language they didn’t understand, LATIN, are comfortable now with tongues NO ONE understand? At least the priest knew what he was saying in Latin, no one knows what someone speaking in tongues in a charismatic gathering says. After more than 25 years the group I have referred to has yet to understand what its members say when they speak in tongues. Some just repeat the same 2 or 3 syllables over and over again, year in and year out, and as I said, after more than two decades no one, not even them knows what they are saying.

Trying to understand 1 Corinthians 12, 13 & 14 is very difficult, and even though charismatics will say that when they speak in tongues they do the same thing Paul referred to, I’m skeptical. Who can assure us the “tongues” we hear today are the same tongues Christians spoke 2000 years ago? Who can assure us that 2000 years ago there were as many tongues as there were individuals as it is the case today? No two charismatics “speak” the same tongue.

If “tongues” were not “languages”, why would they disappear for 1900 years and then reappear 100 years ago, not in the Catholic Church, but among non Catholic individuals teaching error, who rejected the Church, its authority and its teachings?

 

[grannymh]

mlz,

And from what you describe, you will get NO opposition from me in what you do. You describe your prayer as private and respectful.

If you look at my posts, I am talking about people who claim “charismatic gifts”, in particular, “praying in tongues”, and yet cannot find anyone (as St. Paul INSTRUCTS us to do) to interpret what is being “prayed” in a voice heard by others.

Those who have read my posts in other threads know that I consistently point out that St. Paul is referring to two, yes two completely different gifts which employ Tongues. What is being described above has been mentioned in some form in just about every thread I have read. In addition, there have been informative links and at times unique interpretations of St. Paul.

What is being described above from post 256 is the merging of two separate Tongues gifts of the Holy Spirit into verbal mud.

My intention is not to teach belief of these two separate uses of Tongues but rather to teach understanding so that people can discern for themselves how to place Jesus Christ as God in their own lives. Obviously, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal emphasizes the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.

I did start describing how one particular Holy Spirit gift [ordinary, common, praying to God in tongues] might possibly be determined as legitimate I got as far as initially mentioning that a person needs to desire this one particular Holy Spirit gift and I did offer a possible exception. I offered a follow-up on desiring the one particular gift we were discussing, but somehow our discussion was sidetracked to gifts plural…

I thought that we both understood I was referring to one gift only. Now, I find that we are back at square one trying to separate the ordinary gift from the extraordinary gift.