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grannymh
Guest
Maybe – possibly --apparently –
Some people could be unaware of Matthew 28: 16-20
- Status
Some people could be unaware of Matthew 28: 16-20
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grannymh
Guest
The Catholic Charismatic Renewal is a choice.
T
thirddec
Guest
took me a second to get it but I think I did now lol; can’t keep those teenagers long in their seats lol.
S
StTommyMore
Guest
Oh wait, I forgot. Eastern Catholics are so much more spiritual than all of us apostates in the Latin Rite.
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grannymh
Guest
When I get time, I am going to do some checking about current acceptance of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and maybe Charismatic Renewal in general.
A
anjoh66
Guest
It is more likely that the apostles just spoke gibberish and that the spirit interpreted for those present so everybody heard his own native tongue.In the most famous example of the Spirit speaking in toungues didn’t the apostles after the Paraclete descend speak in toungues and did they not speak in their own language but everyone present in that busy town hear them speak in their own native tongue. No one heard any gibberish and no one needed to translate for them.
Is not speaking in Tongues not aslo a sign of the Demonic also?
As I said previously I would not say its not true but I do believe the current practice is open to delusion so extreme caution for suseptable souls is necessary or there is a risk of small groups being influenced by very Charismatic ( normal use of word ) people and becoming a cult.
Otherwise it must have been a real chaos if 120 persons each spoke different languages at the same time and would hardly have been recognisable for anyone.
A demon possesed person speaks in a known language.
a holy spirit filled person speaks in an unknown language.
There is no scriptural evidence that a demon posessed person speaks an unknown language, gibberish or glossolalia.
On the other hand the apostle Paul clearly gives reference that a person praying in the spirit is not understood but by God.
When the event is over the holy spirit filled person is totally changed and they began to do works for God and exhibit the fruits of the spirit. you will know a tree by its fruit.
This will not happen to a demon possesed person.
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grannymh
Guest
If you are referring to the wonderful event of Pentecost, specifically Acts 2: 5-11, this is a singular miracle of hearing.
S
StTommyMore
Guest
Was it singular? Why could God not allow that to happen again? St. Catherine of Sienna prayed in tongues.
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bkovacs
Guest
Protestantism is a choice as well.
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grannymh
Guest
The question “Why could God not allow that (miracle of hearing on Pentecost) happen again?” does not relate to the teachings of St. Paul regarding the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The comment of “St. Catherine of Sienna prayed in tongues.” is not the same as the apostles preaching to a crowd.
I don’t mean to be so picky; however, it is my observation that most of the people who criticize the Catholic Charismatic Renewal do so because they do not understand the two gifts of tongues as they should be practiced. Some mistakenly think that the miracle in Acts is what tongues are all about, i.e., tongues have to be understood by the people who are listening. Perhaps Pentecost is easier to read than St. Paul.
Blessings,
granny
Human life is sacred.
B
bkovacs
Guest
From the Orthodox Church in America
"Concerning the gifts of the Holy Spirit and specifically speaking in new tongues, I offer the following observations:
While the Orthodox Church does not deny this gift in any way, it does acknowledge that this gift is rarely given, spontaneous, and only evident in cases of need. On the day of Pentecost, as we read in the Acts of the Apostles, the apostles proclaimed the Good News to all who would listen. Acts notes that there were many people from many lands in Jerusalem at the time, celebrating the Jewish feast of Pentecost. Many languages were spoken. Acts continues by stating that every one in the crowd heard and understood the apostles as if they were speaking in their own tongues. This gives rise to speculation: does speaking in tongues mean that someone is speaking in a language he or she does not know, or does it imply that he or she is speaking in his or her own language but that the Holy Spirit miraculously enables his or her listeners to understand, even if his or her listeners do not know the speaker’s language?
It follows that on the day of Pentecost there was a clear need for this manifestation: everyone was from a different land and spoke a different language. However, everyone understood. This clearly implies that speaking in tongues is not meaningless babbling, but readily understood speech and language.
While on the day of Pentecost there was a need, due to varying languages, in the case of a group of people who all speak and understand the same language, what would be the purpose of tongues? In Scripture we do not find other indications or references to the apostles speaking in tongues, other than on the day of Pentecost. Perhaps it was because no such need had made itself evident.
It is only my personal opinion, but I think the Orthodox Church would say that “regularly scheduled” speaking in tongue sessions conducted by individuals who speak the same language somehow miss the point. For example, it seems inconceivable to say, “Welcome to our mid-week prayer service. From 7:00 until 7:30 we will pray and sing hymns, and then we will speak in tongues.”
If everyone speaks the same language, what is being revealed? If what is uttered is not intelligible to the hearers, what is being communicated?
If it is a way of showing who in a congregation is filled with the Holy Spirit and who isn’t, it constitutes heresy, for the Holy Spirit is everywhere present and fills all things, including those individuals who have been created in God’s image and likeness yet who reject the very notion. Scripture is very clear that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are never to become sources of personal pride.
With regard to miracles, surely there can be no end to the age of miracles, for God is present everywhere and at all times in the midst of His people. This in itself is a miracle.
If, however, by miracles we are referring only to physical healings, flashing lights, unexplained phenomena, and the like, then we may very well be disappointed. Christ Himself condemned those who continually wished to see signs, or miracles. And Scripture is clear that even those who witnessed miracles with their own eyes often rejected that which they had experienced.
Read the account of the resurrection of Lazarus; everyone witnessed Lazarus walking out of his tomb, yet Scripture says that immediately this created a division among the people, with some greeting Christ the very next day with palm branches as He entered Jerusalem while other witnesses sought a means by which they might put Him to death. “If we don’t stop Him, the whole world will chase after Him.”
Indeed, we believe in miracles – the real miracle, however, is discoverning God’s presence in our lives; discerning His voice, small and still as it may be, as the Prophet Elijah did – and keeping still and silent so we can hear His voice and discern His will for our lives; accepting His call and invitation to live in this world while not being of this world; etc. Healings do occur, but as Christ Himself states in every case, healings are not only signs of God’s power and love but also signs of tremendous faith on the part of the one healed – “Your faith has made you whole.”
Finally, one of the greatest miracles that can occur today, in this age of personal issues, lack of self esteem, and the ongoing search to discover “who am I,” is the recognition of ourselves and our very lives as miracles. As Saint John of Kronstadt, the late-19th century Orthodox saint, once wrote, “Lord, I am a miracle of Thy love. …”
With regard to what we might call phenomenal miracles – weeping icons, faces of Jesus appearing on walls, and the like – Saint John Chrysostom offers good advice: they may be a revelation from God, or they may be a deception from Satan. If we are living according to the teachings and example of Christ, however, we should not make much of them."
"Concerning the gifts of the Holy Spirit and specifically speaking in new tongues, I offer the following observations:
While the Orthodox Church does not deny this gift in any way, it does acknowledge that this gift is rarely given, spontaneous, and only evident in cases of need. On the day of Pentecost, as we read in the Acts of the Apostles, the apostles proclaimed the Good News to all who would listen. Acts notes that there were many people from many lands in Jerusalem at the time, celebrating the Jewish feast of Pentecost. Many languages were spoken. Acts continues by stating that every one in the crowd heard and understood the apostles as if they were speaking in their own tongues. This gives rise to speculation: does speaking in tongues mean that someone is speaking in a language he or she does not know, or does it imply that he or she is speaking in his or her own language but that the Holy Spirit miraculously enables his or her listeners to understand, even if his or her listeners do not know the speaker’s language?
It follows that on the day of Pentecost there was a clear need for this manifestation: everyone was from a different land and spoke a different language. However, everyone understood. This clearly implies that speaking in tongues is not meaningless babbling, but readily understood speech and language.
While on the day of Pentecost there was a need, due to varying languages, in the case of a group of people who all speak and understand the same language, what would be the purpose of tongues? In Scripture we do not find other indications or references to the apostles speaking in tongues, other than on the day of Pentecost. Perhaps it was because no such need had made itself evident.
It is only my personal opinion, but I think the Orthodox Church would say that “regularly scheduled” speaking in tongue sessions conducted by individuals who speak the same language somehow miss the point. For example, it seems inconceivable to say, “Welcome to our mid-week prayer service. From 7:00 until 7:30 we will pray and sing hymns, and then we will speak in tongues.”
If everyone speaks the same language, what is being revealed? If what is uttered is not intelligible to the hearers, what is being communicated?
If it is a way of showing who in a congregation is filled with the Holy Spirit and who isn’t, it constitutes heresy, for the Holy Spirit is everywhere present and fills all things, including those individuals who have been created in God’s image and likeness yet who reject the very notion. Scripture is very clear that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are never to become sources of personal pride.
With regard to miracles, surely there can be no end to the age of miracles, for God is present everywhere and at all times in the midst of His people. This in itself is a miracle.
If, however, by miracles we are referring only to physical healings, flashing lights, unexplained phenomena, and the like, then we may very well be disappointed. Christ Himself condemned those who continually wished to see signs, or miracles. And Scripture is clear that even those who witnessed miracles with their own eyes often rejected that which they had experienced.
Read the account of the resurrection of Lazarus; everyone witnessed Lazarus walking out of his tomb, yet Scripture says that immediately this created a division among the people, with some greeting Christ the very next day with palm branches as He entered Jerusalem while other witnesses sought a means by which they might put Him to death. “If we don’t stop Him, the whole world will chase after Him.”
Indeed, we believe in miracles – the real miracle, however, is discoverning God’s presence in our lives; discerning His voice, small and still as it may be, as the Prophet Elijah did – and keeping still and silent so we can hear His voice and discern His will for our lives; accepting His call and invitation to live in this world while not being of this world; etc. Healings do occur, but as Christ Himself states in every case, healings are not only signs of God’s power and love but also signs of tremendous faith on the part of the one healed – “Your faith has made you whole.”
Finally, one of the greatest miracles that can occur today, in this age of personal issues, lack of self esteem, and the ongoing search to discover “who am I,” is the recognition of ourselves and our very lives as miracles. As Saint John of Kronstadt, the late-19th century Orthodox saint, once wrote, “Lord, I am a miracle of Thy love. …”
With regard to what we might call phenomenal miracles – weeping icons, faces of Jesus appearing on walls, and the like – Saint John Chrysostom offers good advice: they may be a revelation from God, or they may be a deception from Satan. If we are living according to the teachings and example of Christ, however, we should not make much of them."
S
StTommyMore
Guest
No offense, but what the “Orthodox Church in America” has to say is of no concern to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church
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grannymh
Guest
This is a clear explanation of Pentecost. It is also my understanding that the Day of Pentecost experience was not repeated in Scripture. Though Peter recognized the gift of tongues (prayer tongues according to context) in Acts 10: 44-49.
Except for a type of schedule, this example does not relate to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. So I cannot respond.
This is a good example of abuse due to personal pride. I believe that St. Paul refers to this when he is correcting the abuses (regarding the gift of tongues) in Corinth.
The Gift of Miracles (or Healing in the broad sense) is one of the nine classical charismatic gifts listed by St. Paul
These are good points. I would add that the Supreme Miracle is the True Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.
It is also good advice to study paragraphs 66-67 in the Catechism of The Catholic Church, Second Edition.
Continued in post 73
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grannymh
Guest
Contineud from post 72
Which brings us to St. Paul’s letters to the Corinthians. Note that the English translation uses speak in different meanings. There is the personal praying to God. There is the speaking God’s message to the community. This is also considered “The Gift of Tongues”, one of the nine classical charismatic gifts listed by St. Paul. It is important to read the surrounding chapters in order to understand St. Paul’s reference. It is also important to understand the situation of the Corinth community which can be found in the introduction to these letters. The community’s ills apparently drives the style of writing.
Rather than present the references I have, I am more interested in knowing if you or anyone else find any references to tongues in either or both of the Letters to the Corinthians.
Blessings,
granny
“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert
Which brings us to St. Paul’s letters to the Corinthians. Note that the English translation uses speak in different meanings. There is the personal praying to God. There is the speaking God’s message to the community. This is also considered “The Gift of Tongues”, one of the nine classical charismatic gifts listed by St. Paul. It is important to read the surrounding chapters in order to understand St. Paul’s reference. It is also important to understand the situation of the Corinth community which can be found in the introduction to these letters. The community’s ills apparently drives the style of writing.
Rather than present the references I have, I am more interested in knowing if you or anyone else find any references to tongues in either or both of the Letters to the Corinthians.
Blessings,
granny
“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert
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grannymh
Guest
May I respectfully disagree.
It is my understanding that the Renewal was meant for all Churches, Roman, Orthodox, Protestant, etc. in that they would be renewed as Catholic Churches. There are no restrictions on the activity of the Holy Spirit.
There is a lot we can learn from our sisters and brothers who are not Catholic; but this absolutely does not mean that we give up our own doctrines. And there is a lot about the Holy Spirit’s renewal which we can share with others.
Blessings,
granny
The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.
S
StTommyMore
Guest
If their Church is denigrating something the Holy father has approved, then what they have to say is little interest.
B
bkovacs
Guest
The Melkite Catholic Church is in full communion with the Holy See but fully follows the traditions and customs of Byzantine Christianity. Key to this initiative was the profession of faith made by the Melkite Greek Catholic Archbishop Elias Zogby:
"They offer special thanks to Archbishop Elias Zoghby whose 1995 Profession of Faith was the major force for reopening dialogue with the Orthodox brothers. Zoghby, the former archbishop of Baalbek and a long-time leader among the Melkite bishops, offered this brief statement in 1995 and it was subscribed to by 24 of the 26 bishops present at the 1995 Holy Synod:
- I believe everything which Eastern Orthodoxy teaches. That includes the OCA!.
- I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome as the first among the bishops, according to the limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the East during the first millennium, before the separation."
S
StTommyMore
Guest
Then you should full submit to him and not to decry as evil what he has approved.
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gtrenewed
Guest
To repeat:
Tongues is just one part of the gifting of the Charismatic Renewal.
Scripture tells us that we must believe that God is and that He is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. We believe that God is willing for us to use the gifts. We earnestly seek all the gifts but seek to excel in Love.
Those that have truly embraced the Charismatic Renewal have no use for abuse. We reject frauds and showboats or “look at me” -ites after we give them a space to repent. We marvel at the awesomeness of God in our daily lives - in the liturgy and privately. We allow other Christians to follow their discipleship path without demanding they follow ours since it is through grace by the free gift of faith that we can even know anything about God.
We strive for the fruit of the Spirit through the sacaraments and by believing the Baptism of the Spirit will give us the power. We are Catholic but recognize our brothers and sisters journey’s who have received as Cornelius received.
We are immature sometimes but strive for maturity. We are like any other Christian who is trying to live for Christ. When we try to live for Christ, someone is going to persecute you.
This has all been said before more eloquently than I have but it bears repeating at this point.
Tongues is just one part of the gifting of the Charismatic Renewal.
Scripture tells us that we must believe that God is and that He is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. We believe that God is willing for us to use the gifts. We earnestly seek all the gifts but seek to excel in Love.
Those that have truly embraced the Charismatic Renewal have no use for abuse. We reject frauds and showboats or “look at me” -ites after we give them a space to repent. We marvel at the awesomeness of God in our daily lives - in the liturgy and privately. We allow other Christians to follow their discipleship path without demanding they follow ours since it is through grace by the free gift of faith that we can even know anything about God.
We strive for the fruit of the Spirit through the sacaraments and by believing the Baptism of the Spirit will give us the power. We are Catholic but recognize our brothers and sisters journey’s who have received as Cornelius received.
We are immature sometimes but strive for maturity. We are like any other Christian who is trying to live for Christ. When we try to live for Christ, someone is going to persecute you.
This has all been said before more eloquently than I have but it bears repeating at this point.
C
Catholic2core
Guest
The Catholic Charismatic Renewal. This has been recognized as a authentic move of the Holy Spirit by Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul II and our Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI.
I am hoping to give you a little more knowledge about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal (CCR). There is so much more to the CCR than the manifestation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
It begins with establishing a relationship with our Lord, Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit brings understanding to us on a intimate and personal level of Jesus. Jesus, then reveals the heart of the Father to us.
This is the beginning. As we grow in relationship with our Lord, our hearts are transformed and we desire to become more like Him.
We become disciples and through that we have a responsibility to grow in the gifts of the Holy Spirit that God desires for us to build up the body of Christ. We cannot do this alone, that is why He gave us community and community is a vital part of our lives as a christian.
The fruit that is being borne in the CCR is a greater love for the Sacraments of the church, especially the Eucharist and Reconciliation; a thirst for knowledge of who God is (scripture reading); desire to serve God’s people; the desire to yield to the Holy Spirit and the will of God in our lives.
The Holy Spirit gives to us, the gift of Healing, Miracles, Faith, Prophecy, Tongue, Interpretation of tongues, Discernment, Wisdom and Knowledge to accomplish these things.
I think where some might get off track is when the gifts are desired more than the one who gives the gifts (God) and this can make it confusing to the mainstream church.
The Blessed Mother is really the first Charismatic, she was able to yield to the Holy Spirit in every way! We would be blessed to use her example.
In the end it is all about LOVE.
I am hoping to give you a little more knowledge about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal (CCR). There is so much more to the CCR than the manifestation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
It begins with establishing a relationship with our Lord, Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit brings understanding to us on a intimate and personal level of Jesus. Jesus, then reveals the heart of the Father to us.
This is the beginning. As we grow in relationship with our Lord, our hearts are transformed and we desire to become more like Him.
We become disciples and through that we have a responsibility to grow in the gifts of the Holy Spirit that God desires for us to build up the body of Christ. We cannot do this alone, that is why He gave us community and community is a vital part of our lives as a christian.
The fruit that is being borne in the CCR is a greater love for the Sacraments of the church, especially the Eucharist and Reconciliation; a thirst for knowledge of who God is (scripture reading); desire to serve God’s people; the desire to yield to the Holy Spirit and the will of God in our lives.
The Holy Spirit gives to us, the gift of Healing, Miracles, Faith, Prophecy, Tongue, Interpretation of tongues, Discernment, Wisdom and Knowledge to accomplish these things.
I think where some might get off track is when the gifts are desired more than the one who gives the gifts (God) and this can make it confusing to the mainstream church.
The Blessed Mother is really the first Charismatic, she was able to yield to the Holy Spirit in every way! We would be blessed to use her example.
In the end it is all about LOVE.
- Status