J
- Status
H
HisCross
Guest
I agree. We have to remember that none of us are fit for heaven, it is only through Christ’s merits. If we recognize his commands, (which we can eventually see as joyous things), and we truly attempt to turn from sin and follow him, then we should not fear, even when we stumble.
Although Christ does have ominous warnings:
Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."
Christ has let us know of the reality that many will reject him. Many will opt to take another road that doesn’t lead to him, because they didn’t see him worth it enough. They are the ones who do not at least have a little faith, a little trust in his promises. Those who have a sincere desire to look for him, to listen to what he has to say, to open their hearts, to be open to be changed by a love that doesn’t want anyone to perish, a love that doesn’t just love anything you do, but a love that leads and corrects, a love that directs to righteousness and true life.
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Lamentation
Guest
I
InThePew
Guest
The real issue is whether marriage is created or recognized by the law - two very different things. The sacrament of marriage is administered (given might be a better word) by the couple to each other with the Church’s role to bless and sanctify (i.e. make holy) the union. Similarly, the role of the law is simply to regulate unions (essentially for the good of society) and not to create them. Put simply, marriages existed long before the law became involved.
So with this in mind the problem with homosexual marriage is that, as an institution, marriage has always been about the union of a man and a woman, in keeping with the natural order of things given that procreation (an essential part of life) can only come from a man and a woman. So, given this, the problem with homosexual marriage is that it’s not actually recognising or regulating marriage - it’s creating it. While lawmakers could, if they wanted, pass a law declaring all oranges to be apples, this of course doesn’t make it so.
Arguments about equal rights have their place but, at the same time, there’s no unlimited right to get married but instead marriage has to take place within the boundaries of the law - both natural and man made. Granted, there is a place for protection of rights but this doesn’t require marriage - which is the trap that I think a large number of lawmakers have fallen into. Finally, it is important not to forget the Church’s teaching that homosexual persons “must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity; and every sign of unjust discrimination should be avoided.
So with this in mind the problem with homosexual marriage is that, as an institution, marriage has always been about the union of a man and a woman, in keeping with the natural order of things given that procreation (an essential part of life) can only come from a man and a woman. So, given this, the problem with homosexual marriage is that it’s not actually recognising or regulating marriage - it’s creating it. While lawmakers could, if they wanted, pass a law declaring all oranges to be apples, this of course doesn’t make it so.
Arguments about equal rights have their place but, at the same time, there’s no unlimited right to get married but instead marriage has to take place within the boundaries of the law - both natural and man made. Granted, there is a place for protection of rights but this doesn’t require marriage - which is the trap that I think a large number of lawmakers have fallen into. Finally, it is important not to forget the Church’s teaching that homosexual persons “must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity; and every sign of unjust discrimination should be avoided.
T
TarkanAttila
Guest
Hi, Bagpiper! I highly recommend having a look at the posts by this user - HisCross.
Paragraph 2363 of the CCC:
So, the Pope went and looked at “the beginning”, which Our Lord so desired for us to emulate. And, to put it briefly, just as Our Lord instituted only men to be His Apostles, though Our Lady was the greatest of all humans, I think there is something important in seeing Jesus turn to the beginning, and seeing that in the beginning there was a man, and a woman, and these two became one flesh.
If marriage could be between two men, or two women, do you not think it would have entered the minds of men long before our modern age? Do you think Christ would not have brought it up at some point? I realise this is a, really, inadequate response to the OP’s question. But it is food for thought, don’t you think?
Believe me, it’s not easy. But you believe Christ founded the Catholic Church. Does Christ lead us astray? Can His Church ever be mislead by God? If on every other issue the Church is correct, why not this one?
And it’s not the only Church that cannot see two men or two women as being really and truly married. The Orthodox, and many Anglican and Lutheran bodies, also see this. I do not know of very many churches that, having compromised on this issue, have not also compromised on priestesses, abortion, contraception, the utter equality of men and women (rather than their complementarity), if not the nature of God as Father and Jesus as Son, among other things. They all link together. The masculine and the feminine are realities of our world that the Catholic Church recognises, that God made and made good, and that the secular world will not acknowledge.
But even if you don’t believe all that, believe, if only because the Church teaches it to be true, that at least the potential to fecundity is necessary to marriage, and this potential even is missing from any group that contains only one sex.
Amen.
In reference to something HC wrote about people not wanting to follow teaching:
That, or because it seems too hard. " ‘This saying is hard to us; who can follow it?’
… and they left, and followed Him no more. And He asked His disciples, ‘Will you also leave?’ and they said, ‘Lord, to whom would we go?’ "
Indeed. As the Torah begins, “Male and female He created them”, as well as “that is why a man leaves his family, and clings to his wife, and the two become one flesh”. I think something important is being said in acknowledging that humanity began with men and women.
Indeed. The two become “one flesh”. And how is that? In children. You will never see the child as anything negative in the Bible. The Catechism, at length, details how the conjugal act between a man and a woman is made to unite them spiritually. It also presents near the end of the overview of marriage:
Paragraph 2363 of the CCC:
And it goes into detail about both union and procreation. I highly recommend reading the section on the Catechism about the sixth commandment.
I would not go this far. True, it is not a pure love. But on the surface, homosexual adoption seems harmless enough. In fact, it seems to be doing a good turn for society. And I’ll say I don’t believe most homosexual couples have any ill will when they raise children. They care; it’s just that there is a lack of depth in the logic behind their care. For ultimately the alleged right to adoption, IVF, and surrogate pregnancy etc has at its root making children a thing to be owned by a parent, and not a person whom God gives as a gift and a responsibility, who is our equal, and who has rights like anyone else. And one of these rights is to be a gift of love between its parents and God, not a manufactured product or carried by a mercenary mother. But most people these days do not see this far in, probably because no one’s ever had to before.
I believe, if I read “The Theology of the Body for Beginners” correctly, that is basically what Pope St. John Paul II said when he tried to understand God’s original plan for marriage. Pope John Paul II wanted to get to the root simply because, as Our Lord said, “You were allowed divorce because of the hardness of your hearts.** But in the beginning it was not so.**”
So, the Pope went and looked at “the beginning”, which Our Lord so desired for us to emulate. And, to put it briefly, just as Our Lord instituted only men to be His Apostles, though Our Lady was the greatest of all humans, I think there is something important in seeing Jesus turn to the beginning, and seeing that in the beginning there was a man, and a woman, and these two became one flesh.
If marriage could be between two men, or two women, do you not think it would have entered the minds of men long before our modern age? Do you think Christ would not have brought it up at some point? I realise this is a, really, inadequate response to the OP’s question. But it is food for thought, don’t you think?
Believe me, it’s not easy. But you believe Christ founded the Catholic Church. Does Christ lead us astray? Can His Church ever be mislead by God? If on every other issue the Church is correct, why not this one?And it’s not the only Church that cannot see two men or two women as being really and truly married. The Orthodox, and many Anglican and Lutheran bodies, also see this. I do not know of very many churches that, having compromised on this issue, have not also compromised on priestesses, abortion, contraception, the utter equality of men and women (rather than their complementarity), if not the nature of God as Father and Jesus as Son, among other things. They all link together. The masculine and the feminine are realities of our world that the Catholic Church recognises, that God made and made good, and that the secular world will not acknowledge.
But even if you don’t believe all that, believe, if only because the Church teaches it to be true, that at least the potential to fecundity is necessary to marriage, and this potential even is missing from any group that contains only one sex.
Amen.Amen.
In reference to something HC wrote about people not wanting to follow teaching:
That, or because it seems too hard. " ‘This saying is hard to us; who can follow it?’
… and they left, and followed Him no more. And He asked His disciples, ‘Will you also leave?’ and they said, ‘Lord, to whom would we go?’ "
J
JimmyG88
Guest
So clearly you are quite wrong then. If you were correct how could post menopausal women or women who have had hysterectomies marry
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PHSshamrock
Guest
What I am seeing in your post is that you are a well-intentioned young man who is trying to generously respond to the Lord’s call but who hasn’t been very well catechized. It may be an impediment to acceptance in the seminary, but it is also possible that you could be accepted to seminary as that is the place where you’re supposed to learn all this stuff.
Yes your stance on gay marriage would prevent ordination. But I think you would find that if you learned more about WHY the Church teaches what she does you wouldn’t have an issue with it. I would recommend you try to study up on the issue a bit. You still have a few years before you would be able to apply for seminary and you may find that you change your mind in the meantime.
Your reference to not understanding the difference between Protestants and Catholics also shows a lack of understanding of Theology in general. Do you go to a public school or Catholic school? Are there CCD classes at your Church you could attend? If not, perhaps you could pick up some basic catechesis online. Fr. Robert Barron puts very good videos on youtube. Also Fr. Mike Schmitz has podcasts of all of his homilies on iTunes, they are very good- a sound mix of Theology and spirituality that pumps you up about the faith. Start educating yourself and getting to know God better. There’s also a great video about the Church’s stance on gay marriage that has recently been put out. It’s not super long and it is very good. I would highly recommend it. vimeo.com/93079367
Also, you may want to get in touch with the vocations director for your diocese. Explain your dilemma. He should be able to teach you plenty about the Church’s opinion on gay marriage (something that most people misunderstand).
I know this sounds like a lot of work, but being a priest requires a lot of work too so it’s good to get used to it now.
Thank you so much for your generous yes to God’s will! God bless you!
B
Bagpiper513
Guest
I go to Catholic school and have been learning more on the subject. I’ve spoken to my confessor and he was able to explain the Church’s stance on it. I understand why the Church rejects it and I am ok with it.
Thank you for your response.
Thank you for your response.
G
Gorgias
Guest
Lamentation,The same as it rejects heterosexual marriages that are physically unable to produce children.
You seem to be confusing ‘infertility’ with ‘impotence’. Those who are infertile – that is, those who cannot conceive – may be married. Those who are impotent – that is, those who cannot consummate the marriage through intercourse – cannot be married validly.
Heterosexual marriages which can be consummated but are “physically unable to produce children” are valid marriages. The Church does not reject them.
G
Gorgias
Guest
Bagpiper,
I’ll be praying for your discernment.
In the meantime, you’ve mentioned a couple of things that are worth reflecting upon.
bagpiper:
I’ll be praying for your discernment.
In the meantime, you’ve mentioned a couple of things that are worth reflecting upon.
JimmyG88 is right: the Church doesn’t want robots as priests. The thing is, his implication is wrong: it’s also a bad thing to have priests who, although not robots, cannot assent to the Church’s teachings. It’s not just what a priest teaches; it’s how he reflects the teachings of the Church in each and every one of his actions. If, through his words and actions, he betrays that he disagrees with the Church’s doctrine, he not only misleads those who rely on his example but also scandalizes those who follow the teachings of the Church.
Hmm… this is very interesting. Some Protestant denominations believe that divorce is ok; should the Catholic Church change their mind on that? Protestant denominations generally don’t believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist; should the Catholic Church change their mind on that? Here’s the point: either the Catholic Church is right (because it follows Christ’s teachings) or it isn’t. If it is right, it doesn’t matter what our friends or other churches teach; it’s just right. If a man wants to be a priest, it’s because he believes that the Church is right, and because he believes God is calling him to minister to that truth.
M
MyNameIsDan
Guest
Hi Bagpiper,
Please note that what I’m going to say is just my opinion. I think you need to really examine the path you are looking at (priesthood). Do you think it would be okay for you to support gay marriage, given that the Church does not? You have to defend the Church’s teachings. How can you fully defend it and have your heart in defending the doctrines of the Church if you don’t believe in it? Would you then be lying? These are just questions to get your thoughts going.
Before being fully understanding Catholicism, I thought the same thing as you did. Boy was I wrong.
Maybe it’s best to talk to a priest or a vocations director to see whether you can support gay marriage while being a priest. My guess: I don’t think it will work. Being a priest isn’t a job that you put aside.
As for saying we shouldn’t judge gays. Nobody should judge them; this is clear and is taught by the Church. Not allowing them to marry is not a judgement on them, it is not up to the Church to choose who gets to marry and who doesn’t. It’s a matter of God’s laws (a study of theology might help here). Just because the Protestants do it doesn’t mean we should. I suggest Theology of the Body as a reading which might help with understanding what it means to be man and woman. A study of why the Church has the authority it does when it comes to faith and morals may also be worth while.
In any case, I digress. Back to your question. In short, I think you should talk to a priest. See if you will be willing to accept the teachings of the Church and more over, be willing to defend it should you become a priest and the need should arise. What if during confession or casual conversation someone mentions to you they are carrying out same sex relations and that because the Church can’t accept it, they want to leave and get married in a church that will? Do you, configured to Christ the shepherd, go with the teachings of the Church or your own personal feelings? Do you see how a conflict might arise and how it might make you uncomfortable? How can you put your heart fully into telling this person not to do it, your duty as a priest to guide the flock, but at the same time you actually support it? I hope that makes sense. They’re just questions to get you thinking.
Good luck and God bless!
Please note that what I’m going to say is just my opinion. I think you need to really examine the path you are looking at (priesthood). Do you think it would be okay for you to support gay marriage, given that the Church does not? You have to defend the Church’s teachings. How can you fully defend it and have your heart in defending the doctrines of the Church if you don’t believe in it? Would you then be lying? These are just questions to get your thoughts going.
Before being fully understanding Catholicism, I thought the same thing as you did. Boy was I wrong.
Maybe it’s best to talk to a priest or a vocations director to see whether you can support gay marriage while being a priest. My guess: I don’t think it will work. Being a priest isn’t a job that you put aside.
As for saying we shouldn’t judge gays. Nobody should judge them; this is clear and is taught by the Church. Not allowing them to marry is not a judgement on them, it is not up to the Church to choose who gets to marry and who doesn’t. It’s a matter of God’s laws (a study of theology might help here). Just because the Protestants do it doesn’t mean we should. I suggest Theology of the Body as a reading which might help with understanding what it means to be man and woman. A study of why the Church has the authority it does when it comes to faith and morals may also be worth while.
In any case, I digress. Back to your question. In short, I think you should talk to a priest. See if you will be willing to accept the teachings of the Church and more over, be willing to defend it should you become a priest and the need should arise. What if during confession or casual conversation someone mentions to you they are carrying out same sex relations and that because the Church can’t accept it, they want to leave and get married in a church that will? Do you, configured to Christ the shepherd, go with the teachings of the Church or your own personal feelings? Do you see how a conflict might arise and how it might make you uncomfortable? How can you put your heart fully into telling this person not to do it, your duty as a priest to guide the flock, but at the same time you actually support it? I hope that makes sense. They’re just questions to get you thinking.
Good luck and God bless!
B
Bagpiper513
Guest
I have spoken to a priest who also happens to by my Theology II teacher. He has been very helpful in explaining to me what the Church says on the topic of gay marriage and the like. I understand why the Church teaches that gay marriage is wrong, and I am okay with that. I am accepting it more and more. I appreciate your help.
God bless
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