Questions about Trinity

[javid]

Hi.

but since there would be no way to differientiate Christ and the copy, and Christ is an ifinite being that is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent

But two distinct beings, can’t be same in all details. So if there are no differnce between christ and his copy, so in fact we have no copy and we must accept that his self-knowledge doesn’t give us a new person.

as saying there are two pennies in my hand which both occupy the same spot when all you see is one penny.

I see no relation between your example and my question. we have two distinct pennies because they have to different places, so they are not same in all details. So why we must think you have one penny?

he is the self-knowledge of the Father. Being the self-knowledge of God means that he is only distinct of God in that He is the physical embodiment of this self-knowledge. I would point you back to the first part of this to see that this self-knowledge can’t be multiple beings. If you want the original and better analysis of this bit of speculation

God the Father’s self-consciousness doesn’t make copies of the Father because that would be illogical. Not even God self-generates. Neither does God the Son’s self-consciousness make copies of the Son.

Rather, God the Son is the self-consciousness (the Word) of God the Father.

Do I must think that “self-knowledge” is a person? How can we think that self-knowledge is a person?

 

[jochoa]

Hello Javid! What are your thoughts on the following concept of the Holy Trinity?

Please consider the following conceptualization:

Before the beginning of creation, God somehow existed as a single living cell that could think, feel, and will, and it is of the same exact image as the Host of the Eucharist, and we are created in this same exact image and likeness. (Please note: I can’t conceptualize how the cell came into existence, but I can assure you that there was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God-John 1:2).
God thought of a highly complex and just plan to bring free-willed creations to choose to Love as He Loves, so that the creations may experience the same unbreakable peace and perfect happiness He experiences, but also so that when the creations love in union with Him, they will experience a limitless happiness.
At the fullness of time in creation, the single-cell life duplicated, and therefore there is only one exact/eternally begotten body of God. And since the initial cell still exists, it has all-power and knowledge for all eternity. However, when the life duplicated, the mind/knowledge of the initial cell did not carry over to the second cell. Therefore, the second cell has the full divinity in body and the full humanity in mind and can have both the divine and human will, since the will proceeds from the body and mind. It was this second cell that God, the Father (the initial cell), placed into the spotless womb of the Most Holy Virgin, therefore it can be said that the second cell came down from Heaven and became Man.
Throughout the life of the second cell, He demonstrated to the world the Truly Loving Nature/The Greatest Commandments Perfected, even in the face of the hateful Crucifixion. It is this level of perfection that Jesus Christ reveals His Holy Spirit.
However, in order for the free-world to recognize and glorify Him, a free-willed person must perfect living in union with His Greatest Commandments and help give Him all the glory. The first person to achieve this perfection will be known as being at oneness with the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ. Therefore, it can be said that s/he is the Holy Spirit.

Now although there is only one Lord, one God, Jesus Christ-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The process to achieve the goal of guiding free-willed creations to love Him as He loves requires three distinct persons to reveal this: the initial cell, the second cell, and a created cell, therefore, The Holy Trinity is justified as God because without one of the persons, the will cannot be achieved.

Thank you very much for your time, consideration, and fun-to-ponder question! I look forward to further discussion with you.

Thoughts?

 

[Pitcharan]

HOLY TRINITY EXPLAINED
When three persons function in perfect harmony full of humility, mutual love and trust, they will function like ONE being.

Consider this example of a small family comprising the father, the mother and son:
• The father is the head of the family and takes all decisions
• He has completely entrusted implementation of all decisions to his son
• The father is counseled by the mother who supplies him with accurate information needed for deciding. She also provides similar counsel to the son for executing the father’s decisions
• The son executes the father’s decisions exactly as willed by the father and receives from the mother, all counsel required.
• The father and son, have full trust in the counsel given by the mother and never doubt her or seek better advice
• The mother supplies ONLY truth to the father and son; she never colors it with her own views
• The son’s only desire is to fulfill the father’s will without any deviation and does it in humble obedience full of sincerity and love and hence the outcome is always perfect
• The father, the mother and the son love one another, trust one another and ALWAYS agree with one another; whatever they possess belongs to all three and whatever they do is just like that of ONE being.

Consider a very simple task – ‘throw’. To perform it, one must firstly know some details like what / where to throw, decide to do it and then do it. This is true of every task and we can easily see that there are three common basic elements that constitute a task – Knowledge, Decision and Implementation. Thus, whenever something is done, it involves discerning, deciding and doing.
The HOLY TRINITY comprises three persons in ONE GODHEAD and this is exactly how they function:
• The Father wills and controls everything for good
• The Son obediently implements the Father’s will, be it creation, redemption or judgment
• The Holy Spirit counsels the Father, the Son and whoever the Father chooses by discerning truth, exposing falsehood and convicting guilt.
… and the three agree as one” (1Jn 5:8)

 

[Spirithound]

Do I must think that “self-knowledge” is a person? How can we think that self-knowledge is a person?

God’s self-knowledge is a person because God’s knowledge of himself is perfect, having all perfections within it, including personhood.

 

[Samuel_Maynes]

If you are interested in some new ideas about the Trinity and religious pluralism, please check out my website at www.religiouspluralism.ca, and give me your thoughts on improving content and presentation.

My thesis is that an abstract version of the Trinity could be Christianity’s answer to the world need for a framework of pluralistic theology.

In a rational pluralistic worldview, major religions may be said to reflect the psychology of One God in three basic personalities, unified in spirit and universal in mind – analogous to the orthodox definition of the Trinity. In fact, there is much evidence that the psychologies of world religions reflect the unity of One God in an absolute Trinity.

In a constructive worldview: east, west, and far-east religions present a threefold understanding of One God manifest primarily in Muslim and Hebrew intuition of the Deity Absolute, Christian and Krishnan Hindu conception of the Universal Absolute Supreme Being; and Shaivite Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist apprehension of the Destroyer (meaning also Consummator), Unconditioned Absolute, or Spirit of All That Is and is not. Together with their variations and combinations in other major religions, these religious ideas reflect and express our collective understanding of God, in an expanded concept of the Holy Trinity.

The Trinity Absolute is portrayed in the logic of world religions, as follows:

1. Muslims and Jews may be said to worship only the first person of the Trinity, i.e. the existential Deity Absolute Creator, known as Allah or Yhwh, Abba or Father (as Jesus called him), Brahma, and other names; represented by Gabriel (Executive Archangel), Muhammad and Moses (mighty messenger prophets), and others.
2. Christians and Krishnan Hindus may be said to worship the first person through a second person, i.e. the experiential Universe or "Universal” Absolute Supreme Being (Allsoul or Supersoul), called Son/Christ or Vishnu/Krishna; represented by Michael (Supreme Archangel), Jesus (teacher and savior of souls), and others. The Allsoul is that gestalt of personal human consciousness, which we expect will be the “body of Christ” (Mahdi, Messiah, Kalki or Maitreya) in the second coming – personified in history by Muhammad, Jesus Christ, Buddha (9th incarnation of Vishnu), and others.
3. Shaivite Hindus, Buddhists, and Confucian-Taoists seem to venerate the synthesis of the first and second persons in a third person or appearance, ie. the Destiny Consummator of ultimate reality – unqualified Nirvana consciousness – associative Tao of All That Is – the absonite* Unconditioned Absolute Spirit “Synthesis of Source and Synthesis,”** who/which is logically expected to be Allah/Abba/Brahma glorified in and by union with the Supreme Being – represented in religions by Gabriel, Michael, and other Archangels, Mahadevas, Spiritpersons, etc., who may be included within the mysterious Holy Ghost.

Other strains of religion seem to be psychological variations on the third person, or possibly combinations and permutations of the members of the Trinity – all just different personality perspectives on the Same God. Taken together, the world’s major religions give us at least two insights into the first person of this thrice-personal One God, two perceptions of the second person, and at least three glimpses of the third.

• The ever-mysterious Holy Ghost or Unconditioned Spirit is neither absolutely infinite, nor absolutely finite, but absonite; meaning neither existential nor experiential, but their ultimate consummation; neither fully ideal nor totally real, but a middle path and grand synthesis of the superconscious and the conscious, in consciousness of the unconscious.

** This conception is so strong because somewhat as the Absonite Spirit is a synthesis of the spirit of the Absolute and the spirit of the Supreme, so it would seem that the evolving Supreme Being may himself also be a synthesis or “gestalt” of humanity with itself, in an Almighty Universe Allperson or Supersoul. Thus ultimately, the Absonite is their Unconditioned Absolute Coordinate Identity – the Spirit Synthesis of Source and Synthesis – the metaphysical Destiny Consummator of All That Is.

After the Hindu and Buddhist conceptions, perhaps the most subtle expression and comprehensive symbol of the 3rd person of the Trinity is the Tao (see book cover); involving the harmonization of “yin and yang” (great opposing ideas indentified in positive and negative, or otherwise contrasting terms). In the Taoist icon of yin and yang, the s-shaped line separating the black and white spaces may be interpreted as the Unconditioned “Middle Path” between condition and conditioned opposites, while the circle that encompasses them both suggests their synthesis in the Spirit of the “Great Way” or Tao of All That Is.

If the small black and white circles or “eyes” are taken to represent a nucleus of truth in both yin and yang, then the metaphysics of this symbolism fits nicely with the paradoxical mystery of the Christian Holy Ghost; who is neither the spirit of the one nor the spirit of the other, but the Glorified Spirit proceeding from both, taken altogether – as one entity – personally distinct from his co-equal, co-eternal and fully coordinate co-sponsors, who differentiate from him, as well as mingle and meld in him.

For more details, please see: www.religiouspluralism.ca

Samuel Stuart Maynes