Questions about when people get "saved"

[guanophore]

Water baptism is water baptism (dunking or sprinkling aside)…symbolize is not just the flood waters but water baptism also…a symbol , of crying out to God , for a clear conscience, that we do not save ourselves but thru faith in what Christ did , partaking in His resurrection.

But the scripture does not say the water of baptism “symbolizes” a cry to God for a clear conscience. On the contrary, Scripture states that it IS an appeal to God for a clear conscience." Baptism…now saves you." Now we know that just getting dunked in water will not save anyone. People are saved by grace, through faith. Therefore, persons are onlysaved through the waters of baptism when they enter them by grace, through faith. Then their hearts are circumcised without hands (by the Holy Spirit).

If regeneration is associated with baptism , it is probably because it was done immediately upon belief, or upon seeing the need to be saved

Yes I think this is true! When Peter told them at Pentecost “save yourselves from this wicked generation” and they asked "what must we do (to be saved) his immediate response was “be baptized, every one of you”. It is clear that the Apostles believed baptism joined the individual to Christ, as they became members of His One Body, the Church. This is a supernatural even that occurs, in which the Holy Spirit adds each person as living stones into God’s building. Is it likely that all 3000 that were added that day had a “born again experience” like Cornelius and his household?

 

[mcq72]

Catholics don’t see faith so black and white.

while our faith journey ,our maturity,and some would say eventual outcome may be “grey”, i think being born again is black and white, just as fleshly birth.

 

[guanophore]

while our faith journey ,our maturity,and some would say eventual outcome may be “grey”, i think being born again is black and white, just as fleshly birth.

Yes, we are in agreement on this point. But for us, there is much about faith that preceeds that, and proceeds from it. Take the house of Cornelius, for example. He acted in faith, and God responded to his faith, even before he was “born again”.

 

[MT1926]

Correct, in that Nic was supposed to have known something and was chided for it, and now we discuss just what did he not know.

You’ve already made this claim, but refuse to back it up with scripture. I ask again please point out in the OT where Nicodemus should have known and understood all of this.

I say Nic did not know two things. First he did not correctly perceive (and believe) the current wind of the Spirit (the message and testimony of both John and Jesus), and he did not know that such understanding/faith only comes from that same “wind” that regenerates , that makes one born again. Nic assumed he was spiritually born already, or that he could understand with the flesh.

So the chiding was not for unbelief, but in not understanding how one comes to believe, or that our spirit must be revived to receive the Fathers gift.

I think this is where you err. You are taking what you believe about the entire Bible and applying it to Nicodemus.

When Jesus spoke with Nicodemus He was only about 3-4 months into His 3-1/2 year ministry. If your assumption is correct then everything we should need to know about salvation should be contained within the first 2 chapters of John, the first 3 of Matthew and Luke and the first chapter of Mark.

So please point out either in the OT or these chapters alone where Jesus already taught Nicodemus (as well as the rest of us) how one comes to believe?

Thanks,

God Bless

 

[mcq72]

Yes, we are in agreement on this point. But for us, there is much about faith that preceeds that, and proceeds from it. Take the house of Cornelius, for example. He acted in faith, and God responded to his faith, even before he was “born again”.

from my perspective , he probably already was born again, like many inter testament/ot folk.

 

[mcq72]

When Jesus spoke with Nicodemus He was only about 3-4 months into His 3-1/2 year ministry. If your assumption is correct then everything we should need to know about salvation should be contained within the first 2 chapters of John, the first 3 of Matthew and Luke and the first chapter of Mark.

So please point out either in the OT or these chapters alone where Jesus already taught Nicodemus (as well as the rest of us) how one comes to believe?

Thanks,

God Bless

well, first off, were people in OT saved, born again? Not sure this is only a NT thing. From day one after the fall God had a plan for salvation, and one that anyone could covenant with.

As others have said here , it is always by grace and faith that we are saved (OT/NT), have eternal life , are children of God, are born of the Spirit, of God etc. and cometh by hearing His word. Only the particulars change, the covenants change. Some basics remain, that I believe are from the beginning. That God is Holy , we have corrupted our image in Him(our spirits) due to the fall /sin. That is God is love and is in the business of restoring/reconciling/healing (our wounded/dead in sin spirit). That there are only two kinds of people, sons of Satan and sons of Adam and Eve who believe in the promises of God, as he dispenses them.

“8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God,
but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants…
not because of works but because of Him who calls” Rom 9

" The hand of God was also on Judah to give them one heart to do what the king and the princes commanded by the word of the LORD." (Chronicles 30:11-12)"

“Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.” Deut 30

“But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding”. Job 32

 

[MT1926]

well, first off, were people in OT saved, born again?

Not that I’m aware of. The righteous in the OT were in Abraham’s bosom. But the gates of heaven were not yet opened.

Why do you believe the people in the OT were already born again? Is Jesus not required for one to be born again?

Also, isn’t the Holy Spirit required for being born again? How would anyone in the OT know this? They didn’t believe in the Trinity.

From day one after the fall God had a plan for salvation, and one that anyone could covenant with.

Yes but Jesus was His plan for our salvation. So how were people in the OT already saved/born again before the coming of the Messiah?

As others have said here , it is always by grace and faith that we are saved (OT/NT), have eternal life , are children of God, are born of the Spirit, of God etc. and cometh by hearing His word. Only the particulars change, the covenants change.

I think you are the only one here saying that all of these occurred in the OT. Even @tgGodsway, who is reformed, stated…

Jesus was showing a new and living truth Nicodemus didn’t know.

That there are only two kinds of people, sons of Satan and sons of Adam and Eve who believe in the promises of God, as he dispenses them.

I don’t get this saying. I get what you mean by sons of Satan. But I thought we were all sons of Adam and Eve? Since when are the “only believers” considered sons of Adam?

Those are all great Bible verses, but none of the OT verses you provide is Biblical evidence that Nicodemus should have already knew what Jesus was teaching here. And all of the NT verses were written 20 years after Jesus resurrection.

 

[Wannano]

mcq72:

Water baptism is water baptism (dunking or sprinkling aside)…symbolize is not just the flood waters but water baptism also…a symbol , of crying out to God , for a clear conscience, that we do not save ourselves but thru faith in what Christ did , partaking in His resurrection.

But the scripture does not say the water of baptism “symbolizes” a cry to God for a clear conscience. On the contrary, Scripture states that it IS an appeal to God for a clear conscience." Baptism…now saves you." Now we know that just getting dunked in water will not save anyone. People are saved by grace, through faith. Therefore, persons are onlysaved through the waters of baptism when they enter them by grace, through faith. Then their hearts are circumcised without hands (by the Holy Spirit).

If regeneration is associated with baptism , it is probably because it was done immediately upon belief, or upon seeing the need to be saved

Yes I think this is true! When Peter told them at Pentecost “save yourselves from this wicked generation” and they asked "what must we do (to be saved) his immediate response was “be baptized, every one of you”. It is clear that the Apostles believed baptism joined the individual to Christ, as they became members of His One Body, the Church. This is a supernatural even that occurs, in which the Holy Spirit adds each person as living stones into God’s building. Is it likely that all 3000 that were added that day had a “born again experience” like Cornelius and his household?

I have to counter you here G, his immediate response was not “be baptized” but rather “repent, and be baptized.” You say “it is clear that the Apostles believed baptism joined the individual to Christ” , no, repentance joined the individual to Christ and yes, baptism joined them to the Church.
Or do you have a version that eliminates “repent”?

 

[MT1926]

You say “it is clear that the Apostles believed baptism joined the individual to Christ” , no, repentance joined the individual to Christ and yes, baptism joined them to the Church.

I agree with you that adult converts are required to repent and be Baptized. However, by your need to try and separate Baptism and repentance by saying the repentance joins you to Christ and Baptism to the Church you just separated Christ and the Church. I see this being said to try to say that baptism is just a sign or symbolic gesture to your fellow believers.

However, the Church is the one “Body of Christ” Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 12:27-28 and many more verses.

Sure we can easily agree that Baptism joins you to the Church but the Church is the Body of Christ. You can’t be joined to the Church without being joined to Christ. So repentance and being baptized joins you to Christ.

God Bless

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

You say “it is clear that the Apostles believed baptism joined the individual to Christ” , no, repentance joined the individual to Christ and yes, baptism joined them to the Church.

I agree with you that adult converts are required to repent and be Baptized. However, by your need to try and separate Baptism and repentance by saying the repentance joins you to Christ and Baptism to the Church you just separated Christ and the Church. I see this being said to try to say that baptism is just a sign or symbolic gesture to your fellow believers.

However, the Church is the one “Body of Christ” Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 12:27-28 and many more verses.

Sure we can easily agree that Baptism joins you to the Church but the Church is the Body of Christ. You can’t be joined to the Church without being joined to Christ. So repentance and being baptized joins you to Christ.

God Bless

I may have not worded it correctly. “So repentance and being baptized joins you to Christ.” Ok, I can agree. “You can’t be joined to the Church without being joined to Christ.” How then is a baby joined to the Church without repentance?

 

[MT1926]

I may have not worded it correctly. “So repentance and being baptized joins you to Christ.” Ok, I can agree. “You can’t be joined to the Church without being joined to Christ.” How then is a baby joined to the Church without repentance?

What does a baby need to repent of? They have no personal sin.

If you are going to demand repentance is required in every situation then you are saying no child before the age of reason or mentally handicapped can be joined to Christ

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

I may have not worded it correctly. “So repentance and being baptized joins you to Christ.” Ok, I can agree. “You can’t be joined to the Church without being joined to Christ.” How then is a baby joined to the Church without repentance?

What does a baby need to repent of? They have no personal sin.

If you are going to demand repentance is required in every situation then you are saying no child before the age of reason or mentally handicapped can be joined to Christ

If they have nothing to repent of and no personal sin (I agree wholeheartedly) why do you believe they are separated from Christ? Is it not sin that separates us from Christ?

 

[MT1926]

If they have nothing to repent of and no personal sin (I agree wholeheartedly) why do you believe they are separated from Christ? Is it not sin that separates us from Christ?

You are correct personal sin does separate us from Christ and babies do not have personal sin, therefor my comment on not needing to repent. However, the fall of Adam (original sin) also separates us from Christ. We are born with (inherit) original sin, it is not something we commit. Read Romans 5.

Original sin is a lacking of God’s free gift of grace. We need to be born again to wipe away the stain of Original sin.

Think about it. You can’t have it both ways. If Jesus says we need to be born again to enter the kingdom of God and the claims made here is this only occurs with belief and/or repentance (depending who I am talking with) and not Baptism then you have to admit the fact that you believe no child can be born again. Making the logical conclusion that they can not enter the kingdom of God.

 

[Wannano]

**

If they have nothing to repent of and no personal sin (I agree wholeheartedly) why do you believe they are separated from Christ? Is it not sin that separates us from Christ?

You are correct personal sin does separate us from Christ and babies do not have personal sin, therefor my comment on not needing to repent. However, the fall of Adam (original sin) also separates us from Christ. We are born with (inherit) original sin, it is not something we commit. Read Romans 5.

Original sin is a lacking of God’s free gift of grace. We need to be born again to wipe away the stain of Original sin.

Think about it. You can’t have it both ways. If Jesus says we need to be born again to enter the kingdom of God and the claims made here is this only occurs with belief and/or repentance (depending who I am talking with) and not Baptism then you have to admit the fact that you believe no child can be born again. Making the logical conclusion that they can not enter the kingdom of God.

Or as Jesus said, we must come as a little child (innocent). When the child loses its innocence it becomes aware of its personal responsibility. Of such is the Kingdom of God.

 

[MT1926]

Or as Jesus said, we must come as a little child (innocent). When the child loses its innocence it becomes aware of its personal responsibility. Of such is the Kingdom of God.

In Matthew 18 Jesus is a teaching about life in the Church. The entire chapter is about the actions of those who are members of Christ’s Church. In this verse he is speaking about humility there is nothing here that teaches children are innocent and therefore don’t have original sin.

Matthew 18 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Read it in context. He doesn’t say innocent children, not aware of personal responsibility, enter the Kingdom of God.

I love Jesus “TRULY” statements, when I see one I open my eyes wide cause I know Jesus just slapped me on the back of the head and said HEY pay attention, this is important if you want to have eternal life.

Look at the context. In chapters 16 & 17 Jesus singles out Peter over and over again. Now we get to Chapter 18 and the disciples, most likely because they are seeing this favoritism, ask Jesus which one of us will be the greatest in Your kingdom. Talk about arrogance. Could you imagine asking the Lord hey what ya gonna give me for giving up my free time and following you. So what does Jesus do, He hammers down on them with a ultimatum. Keep up with the arrogance and you better go buy a stronger sun block. OR Humble yourself like this little child if you want to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Sure sounds like we not only need belief, repentance and baptism but now humility seems pretty important as well.

We all inherit Original Sin. There is no way of getting around this lack of God’s favor until the Holy Spirit puts a mark on our soul.

God Bless

 

[mcq72]

Not that I’m aware of. The righteous in the OT were in Abraham’s bosom. But the gates of heaven were not yet opened.

So how did they get to heaven, when one must have eternal life, be saved, be born again to do so ?

As it is today, a saint is a saint is a saint, independent of their “location”

Why do you believe the people in the OT were already born again? Is Jesus not required for one to be born again?

yes and yes. Do you not think Jesus was in the OT ? was He not that “rock” ? Did they not look forward to the Messiah as we look backward , timeline wise ? Right from the get go of the protoevangelium ! Children of the Promise.

Also, isn’t the Holy Spirit required for being born again

Last I heard He has been also since the beginning, hence so was also in the regenerating business.

They didn’t believe in the Trinity.

mcq72:

Then what is "the Lord said unto my Lord ? from the psalms ? Not sure Adam and Eve knew His name would be Jesus…so if they believed in His "essence’’ but not by name they are not saved ? Even we like Paul, see thru a glass darkly, as compared to when we see Him face to face.

Yes but Jesus was His plan for our salvation. So how were people in the OT already saved/born again before the coming of the Messiah?

Again, one looked forward as we look back. I have not seen Jesus, just as Abraham did not, yet we both believe in His promises, as many as are revealed.

I think you are the only one here saying that all of these occurred in the OT. Even @tgGodsway, who is reformed, stated…

again , only the particulars change, but the basics of a revived spirit I believe are constant. Human nature has not changed, not the effects of sin leading to death , nor the need to be spiritually revived, reconciled back to the Father.

I don’t get this saying. I get what you mean by sons of Satan. But I thought we were all sons of Adam and Eve? Since when are the “only believers” considered sons of Adam

And I will put enmity between you (Satan) and the woman (Eve), and between your offspring (Satan’s) and hers (Eve’s); Gen 3

Last I heard angels do not procreate amongst themselves so…

Even Jesus said Satan was the father of his enemies.

Those are all great Bible verses, but none of the OT verses you provide is Biblical evidence that Nicodemus should have already knew what Jesus was teaching here. And all of the NT verses were written 20 years after Jesus resurrection.

then why the chiding ? Jesus never taught something new thru chiding.

 

[MT1926]

So how did they get to heaven…

1 Peter 3:18-21
18 For Christ also died[a] for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Peter tells us here that when Jesus died he went and preached to the spirits in prison. This would be Abraham’s bosom. The Spirits of the righteous dead went there and awaited the coming of Messiah. After Jesus went and preached there the gates were opened and they went to heaven.

Did they not look forward to the Messiah

Yes I agree but as you said they looked FORWARD to the Messiah. While they awaited in Abraham’s bosom they still looked FORWARD to the day he would come and save them.

Yes Jesus was the “rock” but that was not Jesus in the flesh. The gates were not open until after His sacrifice.

since the beginning… was also in the regenerating business.

Agree the Holy Spirit was from the beginning but please point to the verses in the OT that show us He was in the “regenerating business” from the beginning.

Then what is "the Lord said unto my Lord ?

Not sure what you are trying to prove with this. If OT Jews believed in the Trinity could you please point out when they stopped believing, because I’m pretty sure that quite a few of the Jewish of today think we believe in three Gods.

And I will put enmity between you (Satan) and the woman (Eve), and between your offspring (Satan’s) and hers (Eve’s); Gen 3

Genesis 3 is the very first prophecy in the Bible of the coming of the Messiah. Not sure where you are getting that interpretation from?

If you go back to the Hebrew the verse says between thy SEED and her SEED. The seed comes from the man not the woman. So we are born of the seed of men. However, Jesus did not have a human father and was born of the SEED of Mary.

Even Jesus said Satan was the father of his enemies.

I thought He said Satan was the father of lies in John 8:44. I’m not sure which verse you are referring to?

Jesus never taught something new thru chiding.

This is circular reasoning. I asked you for Bible verses to prove Nicodemus should have already known how to be born again and this is why Jesus chided him. You give a bunch of verses that don’t prove it and when I point this out you try to prove your point by saying Jesus never taught something new by chiding.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

Or as Jesus said, we must come as a little child (innocent). When the child loses its innocence it becomes aware of its personal responsibility. Of such is the Kingdom of God.

In Matthew 18 Jesus is a teaching about life in the Church. The entire chapter is about the actions of those who are members of Christ’s Church. In this verse he is speaking about humility there is nothing here that teaches children are innocent and therefore don’t have original sin.

Matthew 18 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never ter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Read it in context. He doesn’t say innocent children, not aware of personal responsibility, enter the Kingdom of God.

I love Jesus “TRULY” statements, when I see one I open my eyes wide cause I know Jesus just slapped me on the back of the head and said HEY pay attention, this is important if you want to have eternal life.

Look at the context. In chapters 16 & 17 Jesus singles out Peter over and over again. Now we get to Chapter 18 and the disciples, most likely because they are seeing this favoritism, ask Jesus which one of us will be the greatest in Your kingdom. Talk about arrogance. Could you imagine asking the Lord hey what ya gonna give me for giving up my free time and following you. So what does Jesus do, He hammers down on them with a ultimatum. Keep up with the arrogance and you better go buy a stronger sun block. OR Humble yourself like this little child if you want to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Sure sounds like we not only need belief, repentance and baptism but now humility seems pretty important as well.

We all inherit Original Sin. There is no way of getting around this lack of God’s favor until the Holy Spirit puts a mark on our soul.

God Bless

Yes , He was addressing their adult childish behavior. However, the part you bolded certainly talks of entering the kingdom of heaven unless you become like one of these. You are supposing you are to become like a child guilty of sin it never comitted?

 

[MT1926]

You are supposing you are to become like a child guilty of sin it never comitted?

No I’m not. I never even brought up sin. My point is Jesus is speaking of being humble here. Im saying Jesus isn’t even discussing a child being sinful or sinless here. Not sure why you think the only way my interpretation is correct is if I’m supposing you need to become like a guilty child. Your objection makes no sense?

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

You are supposing you are to become like a child guilty of sin it never comitted?

No I’m not. I never even brought up sin. My point is Jesus is speaking of being humble here. Im saying Jesus isn’t even discussing a child being sinful or sinless here. Not sure why you think the only way my interpretation is correct is if I’m supposing you need to become like a guilty child. Your objection makes no sense?

Look at the second verse, the one you bolded. (Sorry I am not savvy enough to cut and paste etc!) The second verse talks of entering the kingdom and how you have to become as a little child. The third verse makes reference to humbleness and who is then the greatest among them, which they had been arguing about. I had proposed that a child under the age of reason is innocent and that Jesus would be meaning that to gain entrance into the kingdom one must become innocent (happens with repentance) as a child. You indicate that a child is born with the “stain” of original sin of which he is somehow responsible and therefore not innocent. That is why I say " you are supposing you are to become like a child guilty of a sin it never committed."

What does it mean to you to become as a child…not all children are humble.