Questions about when people get "saved"

[twf]

I was raised Evangelical and always saw salvation as a one time event in my past. One think that struck me during my discernment process (which eventually led to me becoming Catholic) was the variety of tenses found in Scripture. Sometimes we see references to having been saved in the past tense. Sometimes we see references to being actively saved in the present tense. Sometimes we see references to salvation as a future event when Christ returns. All three are true. Salvation is a process however you define the theology.

 

[JonNC]

One problem is that Protestantism, mega-churchism, non denominationalism all have so many stripes/flavors/variations that what holds true for the congregation in this block may not hold true for the congregation down the road.

A great reason to not look at these groups as "stripes/flavors/variations " of one thing, because they are not.

 

[ltwin]

I never said WE fill in the gap with good works. I asked how does HE (Jesus) fill in the gap?

OK. I see what you’re trying to say, I think. Are you asking how is God’s grace “communicated” to us, so to speak?

He does this through faith (Ephesians 2:8). Everything a believer receives from God he receives through faith. In an evangelical setting I would stop there, but I probably need to explain what I mean by faith so that it is not misunderstood. A lot of people (many of them OSAS) make the mistake of thinking that faith is a sort of mental assent to a propositional truth (Jesus died for my sins–I believe that, so now I’m saved).

Of course, faith is much more than just acknowledging that the Gospel is true. It is not just believing Jesus but also “receiving” Jesus that makes us children of God (John 1:12). It is placing complete trust in Christ, surrendering completely to his will. Therefore, true faith is inextricably linked with obedience and repentance (Matthew 7). You can’t have one without the other.

Now, total trust and complete surrender is hard. It makes sense then that faith is itself a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8). Faith is supernatural, received by the Spirit and the Word (John 16:8, Romans 10:17).

All the OSAS person has to say is "I’m OSAS because no matter what I do from this point forward there is no gap so big that Jesus won’t “fill it”.

This is not faith. Faith says to Christ, “I believe, I love you, and I will gladly do what you ask of me for your sake no matter what it costs me.”

For instance. We believe confession is a “good work” that merits grace that “fills in the gap”. Now you don’t believe that “good works” fill in the gap but you do believe if you don’t confess you would die unforgiven and separated from God.

I would not qualify confession as a meritorious work. When I confess a sin, I’m not doing anything other than appealing to God for forgiveness through faith in his promise, “If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9).

So, I would not say it is a work. Rather it is one of the means of grace in which we, by faith, continue to appropriate the work of Christ in our lives. Therefore, I would categorize confession as part of the broader spiritual discipline of prayer–which is a means of grace when accompanied by faith.

Why does Jesus unfill the gap (That you said was already filled in) when you didn’t confess? Since confession (a good work you must do) has no merit on Jesus filling in the gap in the first place.

Jesus is our righteousness. He is our perfection. He “fills in the gap” between our righteousness (which is quite lacking) and the righteousness of God by virtue of his vicarious atoning work. He justifies sinners by grace through faith. We exercise our faith and apprehend the promises of God when we confess and repent of our sins.

Not doing this indicates unbelief. Without faith, we cannot please God.

 

[MT1926]

OK. What is the difference between someone now who is not in purgatory and someone who is?

Well I’ll try to explain it using your terms.

The person that dies in a perfect state of God’s grace (has the gap already filled) goes to the Judgement is already purified, Jesus says well done good and faithful servant and they go straight to heaven. This is the person in Heaven.

The person that dies in a state of God’s grace but not perfectly, (there is still a gap) goes to the judgement and the gap gets filled in by the purification of Christ. This is the person in Purgatory (even though it isn’t technically a place). Once Jesus finishes the purification, whether it be instantaneous or take some amount of time (from our perspective), when the purging is finished, Jesus proclaims well done good and faithful servant and that person goes to Heaven.

The person that dies and is not in a state of God’s grace goes to the judgement, the gap doesn’t get filled in and Jesus will say ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. This is the person in Hell.

It is possible with God’s help. We can ask him to give us the strength to let go of our anger and hurt and allow us to heal because ultimately forgiveness is not really about that person (who may or may not care about being forgiven). We need to forgive so that we can walk in freedom and become more like Jesus.

Agreed

For those who have followed Christ, purgation ends and is completed at death.

Well at least we seem to agree that a purgation must take place. As for the whens, wheres and the hows I too leave that up to God, as does the Church.

The only question is, if we are fully purged at the time of death why do we have to go through the judgement, that follows death? If we are fully purged what is left for God to judge us by? If we were fully acquitted at the time of death there is no need of a judgement.

God Bless

 

[ltwin]

We believe when we go to Mass and communion. When we read the Bible, feed the hungry, cloth the poor, etc. Basically, when we do the good works, Jesus commanded of us, he will gives us additional graces to “bridge the gap” between us and God.

Now I’m sure we both agree that a person doing these things are going to be closer to God than the person not doing these things?

If someone is doing these things out of love for God and faith in Jesus Christ, then these activities are means of grace or spiritual disciplines that strengthen our faith and promote sanctification. Yes, someone who does these things would be closer to God.

If person A is ends up closer to God (not because they were given additional graces for their “good works”) wouldn’t that mean that it was actually their actions (all of the above things they did) that brought them closer to God?

Not their actions. They are closer to God because they utilized the means provided to grow in grace. They had faith in God, and they exercised their faith by participating in the Lord’s Supper, meditating on God’s Word, feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, etc.

 

[ltwin]

I’m hoping you might be able to give me answer other than these are just things descriptive of what a saved person will do after the gap is bridged and not prescriptive of what a person must do to bridge the gap. I’ve heard that answer so many times, but no one seems to give a sound reason why we should believe Jesus was speaking descriptively and not prescriptively.

I think I’ll stop here for now, this question is the heart of the understanding for me.

I’ve tried my best to explain it as best I can. Good works are necessary to be a Christian–not because they merit additional grace (To my Protestant ear that doesn’t make a lot of sense. How can you merit what is by definition free?) It is because true faith always produces good works as the fruit of repentance. If we neglect good works, we cannot be sanctified, and sanctification is as much a part of salvation as justification is.

I am essentially Wesleyan in my view of this.

The linkage between faith and works is as unbreakable as that between heart and life. “It is incumbent on all that are justified to be zealous of good works,” says Wesley, “And these are so necessary that if a man willingly neglects them, he cannot reasonably expect that he shall ever be sanctified” (“The Scripture Way of Salvation” in Sermons II [vol. 3; ed. A.C. Outler; Abingdon, 1985], 164).

There are two fundamental reasons for this. First, as James says (3:14), faith without works is dead. Wesley notes that in this James does not “oppose faith to works,” but insists “true faith…cannot subsist without works” (Explanatory Notes upon the New Testament [Epworth, 1950], 862). A dead faith is not faith at all, and a faith is only living if it produces works as the fruit of repentance (provided there is both time and opportunity).

The second reason is that works are not only manifestations of living faith and a changed heart, but also means of grace. Works of piety such as searching the Scriptures, the Lord’s Supper, prayer, fasting, and Christian conferencing not only put love into action, but are means God uses to enable our growth in the knowledge and love of God. Works of mercy are likewise both manifestations of obedience to God and love for others as well as means used by God to increase that love. These are, says Wesley, indispensible for our sanctification.

 

[MT1926]

He does this through faith (Ephesians 2:8). Everything a believer receives from God he receives through faith.

I agree that Ephesians 2:8 says we have been saved through faith and not works. However, this is talking about the initial grace of salvation not our final salvation. Verse 4 tells us that we were dead through our trespasses… Where does it say that “everything” we receive from God is through faith?

Also, if we are saved by faith alone why does verse 10 tell us we are created in Jesus for good works and that these works are to be our way of life? Why would God prepare works before that serve no purpose?

Therefore, true faith is inextricably linked with obedience and repentance (Matthew 7). You can’t have one without the other.

Totally agree. We would call this faith working through love.

Everything we receive from God is through faith and you can’t have faith without obedience and repentance (which is what Catholics would call good works). This statement I can agree with.

Now the confusing part is how do they get separated when it is time to receive the grace?

I think you see where I am going with this. If faith has to have obedience and repentance to equal grace, then obedience and repentance have to have a value or faith without obedience and repentance could still equal grace, which is back to OSAS. Most people try to use an addition sign to link these terms together, which I believe is a misrepresentation because even if one of the values were zero you would still have a positive result, which is why it makes it seems like works can merit without faith. I think the best analogy would be a multiplication sign. 1 Faith x 1 Obedience x 1 Repentance = Grace. In a multiplication problem all three have to have some sort of value or Grace would be a zero.

This is not faith. Faith says to Christ, “I believe, I love you, and I will gladly do what you ask of me for your sake no matter what it costs me.”

Totally agree. This is faith working through love.

I would not qualify confession as a meritorious work.

Why? Did you not do something when you confessed? Isn’t appealing and action verb that means to ask for mercy? Could you explain how something we have to do is not a work? The part that I don’t get is if it isn’t a work why does it take action works to further describe it? You say we “continue to appropriate the work of Christ in our lives” and it is part of “prayer”. Both being something we do. The thing I can’t understand is how does it take something away from God to admit that we are cooperating with His grace?

I appreciate the conversation. You’ve answered more questions than most. It seems like we are pretty close to going in the same direction. It seems the biggest issue seems to be how words are defined and how broad one will allow the other to take their definition.

If you get a chance to reply I probably won’t get it til Friday.

Have a great Thanksgiving.

God Bless

 

[tgGodsway]

this is talking about the initial grace of salvation not our final salvation.

Hi MT1926 I hear what you said here but this issue of “initial grace” verses final grace is not taught anywhere in scripture. Paul doesn’t make this distinction, why would you?

When Jesus spoke of having eternal life in John’s gospel, He always spoke of it in the present tense. Eternal life is something to be received in a moment of faith by accepting Jesus Christ.

 

[tgGodsway]

if we are saved by faith alone why does verse 10 tell us we are created in Jesus for good works and that these works are to be our way of life?

I read this and want to make a point please.

Seeing that eternal life cannot be obtained by doing good works, yet to do good works is commanded all over the N.T. We need to ask: for what purpose? Obviously doing good works will not earn us a right- standing of justification because of the clear teaching from scripture. Yet good works are commanded everywhere. Why?

To answer this correctly is imperative. It may help relieve any potential perception of tension between faith and works. One day we will all stand before God to be judged by our works apart from faith. But for what reason?seeing that we already have eternal life because of a moment of faith, we believed?

For the purpose of earning an inheritance.

In Jewish custom, an inheritance was always meritorious. God spoke to the nation of Israel and told them they could go in and possess the Promised Land as an inheritance. But with His next breath God also said, now go and drive out the enemies of the land first.

So,… in one sense the land was theirs legally, but only by their good works of driving out evil, could they now be rewarded with a specific amount of inheritance based on works alone. Remember that “entering the kingdom of God,” is not the same thing as inheriting it. Entering it is by a free gift, inheriting it (is to take up ownership) and will cost you everything you’ve got in terms of forsaking all to follow Him.

 

[MT1926]

Hi MT1926 I hear what you said here but this issue of “initial grace” verses final grace is not taught anywhere in scripture. Paul doesn’t make this distinction, why would you?

Sorry for the confusion. You’ve kind of jumped in the middle of a week long discussion, so we weren’t spelling everything out every time we were trying to get something across.

Itwin claimed that Ephesians 2:8 shows that everything a believer receives from God is through faith. I disagreed. When we read Ephesians 2:8 in context we can see that St. Paul is talking about the initial grace of salvation. He is speaking of us coming to faith by the free gift of God’s grace. Like I said that is the context from verse 4 & 5 we were dead (before faith) and God (not us) made us alive (bring us to faith).

The only point I was trying to make was this verse does not speak of our final salvation, not sure where you got “final grace” from?

When Jesus spoke of having eternal life in John’s gospel, He always spoke of it in the present tense. Eternal life is something to be received in a moment of faith by accepting Jesus Christ.

I’m not real sure where you are going with this? Maybe you could expand on your line of thinking here.

Off the top of my head when I read…

Whoever believes in him may have eternal life John 3:15

He who believes in the Son has eternal life John 3:36

he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life John 5:24

And so on…

I don’t see how you are getting from present tense believes to = Eternal life is something to be received in a moment of faith by accepting Jesus Christ.

When I read the present tense believes I see that as saying eternal live isn’t received in “one moment”, it is received only if “believe” is present in every moment until the day you die. I mean it is common sense to me. How can you have eternal life in this very moment of faith if 20 years from now you no longer believe?

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

One day we will all stand before God to be judged by our works apart from faith. But for what reason?seeing that we already have eternal life because of a moment of faith, we believed?

I am not saying we can work our way into heaven apart from God’s grace, however your conclusion is based on the conception that we already receive eternal life because of “one” moment of faith. Don’t agree I don’t see this being biblical. The bible shows us…

That Christians:

"have been saved" through faith and baptism:

Mark 16:16
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 6:3-4
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried[a] therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

they’re “being saved” through cooperation with grace:

1 Corinthians 1:18
Christ the Power and Wisdom of God
18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 15:1-3
The Resurrection of Christ
15 Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, 2 by which you are saved, if you hold it fast—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures,

2 Corinthians 6:1
6 Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.

and that they “shall be saved” if they persevere in the Faith:

Matthew 10:22
22 and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Romans 2:6-7
6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Galatians 6:7-9
7 Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.9 And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.

If you would like to discuss this “moment of faith”, I’m willing. But for us to discuss “faith and good works” won’t get us anywhere since we are not on the same page with when someone is saved to begin with.

God spoke to the nation of Israel and told them they could go in and possess the Promised Land as an inheritance. But with His next breath God also said, now go and drive out the enemies of the land first.

My only question is if they didn’t drive out the enemies would they have still been able to enter the Promised Land?

God Bless

 

[spina1953]

I tend to think many of the verses cited concerning faith and works are misunderstood. I say this because it seems to me Paul was talking about the ritual works and the law of Moses that the jewish people believed, not good works like feeding the hungry, etc. Now it seems to me that every time i see good works won’t save anyone only faith saves seem to miss that fact of what Paul was never talking about good works or good deeds but about the Jewish rituals and the law of Moses that many of the convert Pharisees were teaching converted Gentiles that they had to follow the Jewish rituals and the law of Moses or they would not be saved. They were telling the converted Gentiles that they had to be circumcised etc. and Paul was saying no that the followers of Christ were no longer under the law.

The think is how does one get saved and how does one know with certainty that one is saved? If all one has to do is say I believe and that’s all there is to it to be saved anyone could say that whether or not they believed it. I think no one really knows for sure with certainty they are saved till they enter heaven. Til then one works on their salvation, since one is always being tempted throughout life, and can fall at any given time either by what one does or not does. it almost seems like saying I’m saved is the easy way, but Christ said the gates to hell are wide open while the gates of heaven is narrow, so means to me its not all that easy to get into heaven, so saying I’m saved is an illusion when there is no easy way to heaven by just saying I’m saved and that’a all there is to it.

 

[tgGodsway]

Itwin claimed that Ephesians 2:8 shows that everything a believer receives from God is through faith.

I taught a simple outline on this web site a few months ago on this topic, Of course it was not well received but I will throw it out here again to see if it will expound the true protestant perspective on this topic.

Not all protestants agree with me, or us, (a reformed view) on these narrow points of salvation. Many post-protestant groups look at salvation more like you do.

It is treated as a journey from point A to point B. Point A is your original entrance to salvation through an initial work of grace. Point B is the final destination=Eternal life in heaven. You are to travel from point A to point B, hopefully without stopping along the way. But if you do not make it to point B, then eternal salvation is denied. For Catholics purgatory is a temporary solution, but for the post-protestant, hell is the only other result.

Verses like, Matt. 7:13 are used to support the “journey” view. where it says, "enter by the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, . . . "

Luther and Calvin and all those who followed the reformed view see these salvation passages differently, in a three-fold way.

Here’s what I mean:
Salvation is used in scripture in a past-tense, present-tense, and future tense solution. The Greek counterpart for the word salvation is the word deliverance, to be delivered from something, to, something.

We believe that you 'HAVE BEEN" saved in spirit, (1st. Cor. 6:17) from the PENATLY of sin. This (Jn. 5:24) judgment resulted in your eternal justification based upon the finished work of another, namely Christ on the cross who paid your sin-debt in full. This salvation is your POSITION in Christ (Eph. 2:6) and entrance to eternal life.

Secondly, we believe you are “BEING SAVED” not in spirit, but in SOUL=temporal life, not from the penalty of sin, but from sin’s power. (Rom. 6) This ongoing “journey” is a work of, not justification, but SANCTIFICATION, and represents not your position in Christ, but your CONDITION in Christ. It is an answered call to discipleship on the narrow road leading to temporal life.

Lastly we see scripture talking about how you WILL BE saved, not in SPIRIT, OR SOUL, but in BODY, not from the penalty, or power of sin, but from the very PRESENCE of sin in a glorified body. This is not your position or condition in Christ by your ambition in Christ

 

[tgGodsway]

MT1926, Please allow me to tackle those scriptures you brought up in light of a three-fold salvation plan.

You quoted Mark 16:16. This verse presents a small problem for some people because it adds the word baptize into the salvation equation of just to believe, but not repeated anywhere else in scripture in the same way. So, a pause, and slow down may be needed as we interpret the verse.

He who BELIEVES (the message of Christ) and is baptized (probably inferring water baptism) will be delivered=saved. but he who does not BELIEVE will be condemned.

It is noteworthy to point out here that water baptism was not included as a condition for those who do not believe. By inference, we can say neither was it included for those who do believe either.

I would argue that those who believe the message of Christ will be delivered. In what sense? it is not clear in this verse.

Next verse: Ephesians 2:8-9, For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, v9 not because of works, lest any man should boast.

The YOU are those in the Ephesian Church. who already have been saved. (it implies eternal, but does not say so.) by grace= God’s rich favor, through their operation of FAITH.

If we stop here in the middle of this verse, it is clear that Paul is emphasizing the freeness of God’s gift because he forcefully and deliberately makes a distinction between faith and works. He goes on to say, "… and this is NOT YOUR OWN DOING, it is the GIFT of God. What Gift might that be? The Gift of eternal life is implied. It was received by their FAITH alone, lest anyone have reason to brag and boast. But Paul speaks of this GIFT as something already possessed. For him, there was no point A to point B. This gift was already received, at least in their spirit through new birth. (jn.3:3) It is a given that their minds still needed salvation. It is a given that their bodies also needed salvation. Both were dying and already dead. Only in a spiritual sense, or in seed form, had they come alive eternally.

Let’s finish the passage: “For WE are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works…”

Who is the WE?.. Those who have received the GIFT of eternal life in Christ Jesus and have been saved through their faith. Those are the ones who’ve been ‘CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS’ for good works. It isn’t that the good works finished or seals the deal. The deal is finished when they believed Jesus is the Christ. This is why Paul can call it a GIFT, A gift is only to be received, not worked for.

 

[tgGodsway]

1 Corinthians 1:18

Christ the Power and Wisdom of God

18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Who is the “TO US” in the statement? … They were those of the Corinthian Church. They were the eternally saved (public ones) who were preaching the word of the cross. Preaching to who? to those who were perishing. To those who were perishing, this word was folly=foolishness, but to US, (Those “in Christ” who have the Eph. 2:8 GIFT of eternal life, this message is our (on-going ) deliverance. (In this context we now can use the point A to point B journey of salvation.)

It was salvation, not in spirit, or eternally, but salvation temporally… deliverance their very souls… They were being saved=delivered from what? … sins’ power! (this is a journey) from glory to glory as the Apostle Paul stated to the Corinthians in 2nd. Cor. 3:18,

“But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being TRANSFORMED into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.”

It is the same concept James brought up in James 1:21,
“Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your SOULS.” =temporal lives
Who was James talking to?.. His flock! the same as those of Eph. 2:8 eternally GIFTED ones.
To receive Christ alone will not (deliver) us from sin’s power ruling in our bodies. Since God has given us the right to have the LAND OF PROMISE we are to go in and drive out the sinful passions of the flesh.

The larger point here is that the word salvation should always be understood in it’s context. If the writer is talking about eternal things, then use the word in that context. If the writer is talking about temporal things, then use the word salvation in a temporal context. Remember the Greek counterpart is also translated deliverance. to be delivered=saved. My post-protestant friends do not notice this distinction in scripture and anytime they see the word salvation, it is like a knee jerk reaction for them to believe that this salvation is automatically talking about heaven or eternal salvation, when it was not. The qualifying word “eternal” next to the word salvation is the only way we should read it and come to that conclusion.

 

[ltwin]

However, this is talking about the initial grace of salvation not our final salvation. Verse 4 tells us that we were dead through our trespasses…

Yes, and verse 6 continues " and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus." Therefore, I do not think we can limit the operation of faith to just initial salvation since the context of this passage does not seem to be limited to simply initial salvation.

Where does it say that “everything” we receive from God is through faith?

I think all of Scripture is a testimony to the role of faith. There are many verses testifying that we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8, Acts 16:31, Romans 4:5, John 1:12, etc). Yet, we’re also told that that the following are accomplished through faith:

Sanctification (Acts 15:9, Acts 26:18)
Conditional security (1 Peter 1:5, Romans 11:20, 2 Corinthians 1:24)
Perfect peace (Isaiah 26:3, Hebrews 4:3)
Healing (James 5:15)
Overcoming the world (1 John 5:4)
Overcoming the flesh (Romans 6:11)
Overcoming the devil (Ephesians 6:16)

We are also told in multiple places that the entire Christian life must be lived through faith (Heb. 10:38, Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:11, Gal. 2:20).

We are elegantly told in Hebrews 11 about the importance of faith:

11 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

. . .

13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

This entire chapter is a beautiful testimony to the faith of Old Testament saints, but I’d draw your attention to verse 6.

 

[James817]

With all due respect, Paul’s commentary in Hebrews doesn’t equate to sola fide for that matter. Elsewhere in 1st Corinthian he says love is greater even than faith.

 

[ltwin]

Also, if we are saved by faith alone why does verse 10 tell us we are created in Jesus for good works and that these works are to be our way of life? Why would God prepare works before that serve no purpose?

ltwin:

We are saved by grace through faith so that we can do good works. I don’t see any devaluing of works of piety or mercy in that. They are our purpose–a purpose we can only realize by being united to Christ by faith.

Now the confusing part is how do they get separated when it is time to receive the grace?

I think you see where I am going with this. If faith has to have obedience and repentance to equal grace, then obedience and repentance have to have a value or faith without obedience and repentance could still equal grace, which is back to OSAS. Most people try to use an addition sign to link these terms together, which I believe is a misrepresentation because even if one of the values were zero you would still have a positive result, which is why it makes it seems like works can merit without faith. I think the best analogy would be a multiplication sign. 1 Faith x 1 Obedience x 1 Repentance = Grace. In a multiplication problem all three have to have some sort of value or Grace would be a zero.

I don’t separate them. I think I place each in there appropriate roles.

Through the preaching of the Word (which teaches us both Law and Gospel) and ministry of the Holy Spirit (who convicts sinners and draws men to Jesus Christ), we receive faith in Christ and repent of our sins.

This produces a change within us, and we are regenerated and justified. All of this is through faith. As we grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord, by faith we are progressively sanctified, being molded more and more into the image of Christ.

We are aided in sanctification by the means of grace: works of piety and works of mercy which are like spiritual exercise to us. By making use of these spiritual disciplines, our faith is strengthened and we become more like Christ.

All of this is dependent upon faith–true faith, living faith, of which obedience and repentance are part of. Through unbelief and persistent, unrepented sin, the Holy Spirit can be grieved and salvation can be forfeited.

 

[ltwin]

With all due respect, Paul’s commentary in Hebrews doesn’t equate to sola fide for that matter. Elsewhere in 1st Corinthian he says love is greater even than faith.

Are you disputing that it is possible for anyone to draw near to God without faith?

And as far as 1 Corinthians 13, he is speaking of the charismata–the spiritual gifts. There is general faith that the Spirit makes accessible to all who hear the Gospel and then there is special faith that only some Christians have.

Paul is clearly speaking of faith being a charism here, a special gift–the type of faith that heals the sick or “moves mountains.”

Yes, love is more important than charismata, but how do we get the love of Christ inside of us? By faith.

The last verse does say that “now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.” It is obvious the reason for this. One day, hope will end because we will be face to face with the object of our hope. Likewise, faith will end when we see Christ face to face. As faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen, we will not need faith when the “perfect comes.”

So, yes, love is superior because God is love. However, we who have never seen God know that God exists and the he is love by what? Faith. It is our evidence and the substance of our hope.

 

[James817]

Is that what I said? No.

Faith is necessary to please God but that alone is useless if one does not love God above all and obey His commands.

In Hebrews Paul tells us that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Although this doesn’t mean we earn our salvation, those who disobey God will not enter His rest.