Questions about when people get "saved"

[MT1926]

The call is to believe or trust in Christ. To trust in His name. This specifically deals with who He is. Well, … who is He? We both agree Jesus is more than just a man. He is the Christ!.

So all we have to do is believe Jesus is the Christ and we are done?

Do we have to believe and trust in the things He told us to do?

Do we have to obey the commands He gave us?

 

[Vonsalza]

tgGodsway:

The call is to believe or trust in Christ. To trust in His name. This specifically deals with who He is. Well, … who is He? We both agree Jesus is more than just a man. He is the Christ!.

So all we have to do is believe Jesus is the Christ and we are done?

Do we have to believe and trust in the things He told us to do?

Do we have to obey the commands He gave us?

You’re not going to get one answer on this from wider Protestantism because they conflict about what it is to “get saved” except in the vaguest of terms.

My Baptist upbringing taught me that baptism wasn’t requisite to the affecting of salvation. My wife’s Independent Christian Church upbringing taught her that it absolutely is. But we both agreed that we have to “trust in Jesus”.

Similarly, my particular flavor of Baptist believed in “ticket-punch” soteriology (once saved, always saved). But my wife grew up “knowing” that the Christian could fall away into damnation.

Again, protestants don’t have “one answer” to the issue. The biggest systemic problem within Protestantism, to be sure. No one knows and no one can make the call and all differing parties rabidly insist they’re right because the Holy Spirit told them so…

…which is (partly) why I’m Catholic

 

[MT1926]

I believe everything Jesus says in scripture. The problem isn’t about believing what Christ said, the problem is more about believing what he meant, when we develop and shape our theology. In this case it is a theology on salvation.

Why would Jesus want us to develop and shape our own theology? I mean if I was running the largest corporation on the face of the earth I think I would leave someone in charge when I left. Wouldn’t you?

I’ll bite, what did Jesus mean when He said?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Finding other voices from the bible (on any given topic) to confirm and support the specifics of what another person is saying is actually a bible rule found from the bible.

I thought all of scripture was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Would all of the verses actually conform to a fluent teaching then trump or supersede one another?

And please point out where the Bible proclaims to be self interpreting?

So… what is the truth about water baptism? is it a condition for salvation or not? You didn’t exactly answer it.

Water Baptism is a sacrament set up by Jesus Christ for our salvation. We are bound by that Sacrament as a condition for salvation. However, God is not bound by the Sacraments. If He desires to save someone, who has not been baptized, the choice is His not ours. Like I already said we can’t get to heaven and say “Hey you didn’t make the good thief get Baptized”.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

You’re not going to get one answer on this from wider Protestantism because they conflict about what it is to “get saved” except in the vaguest of terms.

Thanks for the response. I think that is the point I am trying to make. I just want the person to see that if you are going to make vague arguments then your theology isn’t sound enough to tell someone else they are wrong.

Again, protestants don’t have “one answer” to the issue. The biggest systemic problem within Protestantism, to be sure. No one knows and no one can make the call and all differing parties rabidly insist on being “right by the Spirit”.

That is what confuses me the most. To me it is common sense. If you can’t even define what you mean by the word believe how can you insist your definition is correct.

That’s what I love most about the Catholic Church. They put it all out their for the world to see. There is no way the Church can say well that’s not what I meant when the definition is right there in the catechism.

God Bless

 

[tgGodsway]

MT1926, thanks again for the response.

One thing I hate about email and text is the types of emotion expressed are always difficult to discern in the words of the email. But it is true that I am passionate about the subject. Please know however that I have no qualms with you personally. I wish only the best for you.

You accused me of making an assumption about Ephesians 2:8, 9 in that it was talking about eternal salvation. And I did, in the first post. But you tried to discredit it.

Either way, honestly, it doesn’t matter how you want to read it. I know that my words are not welcome or respected on this site. There is one common theme on this web site about, quote, “protestants.” It is believed that we are the deceived, evil ones, trying to overthrow your faith. I know different, but you don’t. I serve my Lord and savior Jesus Christ and have a wonderful communion with Him every single day.

God’s rich Blessings to you and your family,

 

[James817]

We don’t hate you. We just disagree, and those of us who belong to Christ’s Church that He founded have the duty and the right to disagree if someone misrepresents the Head.

 

[MT1926]

Actually, your words are very welcome and highly respected. I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me or telling me I’m wrong. I want to be challenged. I welcome it. How else am I going to know the Catholic Church is the one true Church founded by Christ. I don’t blindly accept anything. For me it is all about the why. I want someone to ask me why so I have to dig deep and give them that answer. Then when they ask why about my answer it makes me dig even deeper. The deeper I dig the more answers I get. I would expect nothing less and therefore I give nothing less. If you are going to give me an answer that has not been heard of in the past 2000 years I want to know why before I’m going to accept it. And once you give that answer I want to know why and how you got there. If asking why comes across as disrespect then I apologize. But for someone to tell me baptism isn’t important because it’s not mentioned in every single verse about salvation isn’t sufficient to answer the why, especially in light of the evidence that it is.

I hope you decide to stick around, I was enjoying our conversation.

God Bless

 

[tgGodsway]

I hear you. Please understand something here. I have at least 6 or 7 people tracking what I say on this site, not to mention the officials who run it. Everyone wants detailed answers, as if I work here. I do not. I have spelled out very detailed beliefs on this site in the past, to which people respond with one small sentence and then move on. My answers can and do have solid biblical research and apologetics behind it. But I have a job, a wife, children, a church, friends, and chores to do as well as sit behind a computer and type out things that 7 or 10 people are going to pounce on. I enjoy talking about scripture and love God’s people, and this is why I do it. Sometimes I can type out thorough answers but most of the time there are just too many of you to answer.
Blessings.

 

[MT1926]

I hear you also. I use a program called Microsoft one note. I store all of my apologetic research in there. Quite often the same people ask the same question. So for me all I have to do is copy and paste. That might help you out.

I mean no disrespect with this statement, but what you write here

I have spelled out very detailed beliefs on this site in the past, to which people respond with one small sentence and then move on.

I have heard this in the past. Sorry but I don’t accept that answer. If someone was to say that at the beginning of a conversation then I would accept it. But I only see it is thrown out later in the conversation when it seems someone no longer wants to answer questions given to them. Like I said I love the question why. It makes me dig deeper into my faith. If we believe we are correct then our love of Jesus should make us want to take the time to understand the why. When I type out answer I always keep in mind that I am not only speaking to you but also the person that might wander on here 5 years from now. If we don’t want to take that time when someone asks why, then maybe we need to start asking ourselves what we are afraid of that we might find? And of course WHY?

My answers can and do have solid biblical research and apologetics behind it.

Great I would love to hear it. But I will always ask why. Even when a Catholic Apologist gives I Bible verse I read the entire Chapter and ask myself why?

Also, you need to understand that you have us at a disadvantage here. When you come here you don’t need to ask us a single question, you could just as easily pull up the Catechism online and have all your questions officially answered right there in black and white. However, when we talk to you we have absolutely no clue which denomination you are coming from. And even after we find out your denomination that only narrows it down to maybe 100 different “reformed positions”. That’s why you always get so many questions.

I enjoy talking about scripture and love God’s people, and this is why I do it.

AMEN, so do I. However, I also enjoy learning about scripture. I will freely admit I don’t have all of the answers. That is why I tend to ask so many questions.

Sometimes I can type out thorough answers but most of the time there are just too many of you to answer.

Blessings.

I know what you mean. I have 4 lengthy conversations going on right now. Look into Microsoft one note, it has made my life so much easier.

God Bless

 

[Reuben_J]

MT1926:

When Jesus says “he who believe” what does that mean to you? Why does it mean it to you? And how do you get to that conclusion from this verse alone?

Okay… I can answer these simple questions. It’s not hard.

The quote, “he who believes,” from all of John’s gospel I gave you is a common denominator to salvation. In order to be saved one must “believe.” Okay… you have a couple of good questions here. What does believe mean to me and why? and how did I get to this conclusion? fair questions that deserve an answer.

I have no choice but to yield to what the word believe means from it’s Greek counterpart. I do not have the right to add my own personal definition or borrow one from someone else. In this case the Greek counterpart (from John’s gospel) also translates into the word trust. To believe is to TRUST. It is that simple.

If I add someone else’s definition, I have violated the passage in question. To believe, according to scripture is to simply trust someone, or someone’s information.

But in the case of salvation specifically, when Jesus says in John 3:18, "He who BELIEVES IN HIM is not condemned, but he who does not BELIEVE is condemned already, because he has not believed in the NAME of the holy begotten Son of God.

**The call is to believe or trust in Christ. To trust in His name. This specifically deals with who He is. Well, … who is He? We both agree Jesus is more than just a man. He is the Christ!. **

John ended his gospel by saying, “And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book, v31 but these are written that you may BELIEVE that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.” Jn. 20:30,31

To believe in Jesus the Christ results in salvation.

Unfortunately it is not just saying ‘I believe’ but it must be demonstrated by our actions.

There are quite a lot of things to be done by the believers as prerequisites to believe in Christ, otherwise it is just saying, ‘Lord, Lord, I believe in you’, but without doing what Jesus commanded us to do, it would fall short.

For example, Jesus said, “be baptized”. Do you believe that you should be baptized?

More importantly than saying ‘I believe’ would be what it entails to believe.

 

[Vonsalza]

Unfortunately it is not just saying ‘I believe’ but it must be demonstrated by our actions.

Yes! Per James, “even the demons believe”.

 

[tgGodsway]

biblical

I’m on a short break from my phone. I hear you MT. and may try your method. But my library of Catholic stuff is limited. I was raised Catholic and filled in the Spirit at Holy Rosary Catholic Church back in 1981.
Got to go.

 

[ltwin]

If good works are not necessary for salvation then we shouldn’t need to do them.

What is the goal of salvation? It is to become like Christ as the whole creation is restored to its original condition before the Fall.

Salvation is a free gift we receive by faith. “Faith alone” does not mean “you need only believe.” To only believe would not be restoration of the pre-fallen condition.

What is meant by “faith alone” is that doing good stuff outside of faith is meaningless when considering one’s spiritual condition. An atheist can feed a homeless man, but that good work cannot atone for sin. A lifelong church member’s good deeds in the church and in the world cannot apart from faith atone for sin.

Therefore, just as “only believing” cannot atone for sin, neither can doing good deeds atone for sin. Only Christ’s perfect sacrifice can atone for my sins. The cure for my human brokenness is found in Christ alone by his grace alone through faith alone.

I certainly get to cooperate with Christ. By faith, I am dead to sin and alive in Christ. By faith, Christ’s will is manifested in me as I began to perform the works he has ordained for me.

Yet, I am not saved by my works. I am saved by the grace of God alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

In other words, good works are part of salvation, but good works do not earn or cause or produce or merit salvation.

 

[steve-b]

Tis_Bearself:

Is getting “saved” a commitment to join or believe in a particular faith (e.g. the one that the preacher espouses) or does it just mean you’re putting yourself in the hands of Jesus and letting him wash away your sin and committing to sin no more?

In theory it’s a public way of committing to follow Christ and being transformed. In practice, I think that’s common for them to hold views shared with the preacher if the person goes through with follow ups.

I don’t like the practice to be honest. It’s not great with introverts.

http://babylonbee.com/news/man-recommits-life-christ-just-put-altar-call-misery/
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/you-asked-should-churches-perform-altar-calls/

There is no altar in a Protestant setting. There is no priest, there is no sacrifice. So what does altar call even mean?

 

[ltwin]

None of these verses claims faith alone.

You asked me, “Where does it say that ‘everything’ we receive from God is through faith?” That post was a response to your question. The purpose of the verses I cited was to show that by faith we receive everything we need from God whether it be sanctification, healing, peace, victory over the world and sin, or to have communion with Christ.

Sure looks like they had to also “DO” something. Sure you can say that was after faith or that isn’t a work. However, the fact that St. Paul took them “THAT VERY HOUR” and BAPTIZED THEM AT ONCE", sure makes it seem pretty darn important.

Baptism is a means of grace. In baptism, the Christian makes an appeal to God for a clean conscience, buries the old man, and rises to new life in Christ. Of course, baptism as an action does not merit salvation. A baptized person who has never placed their faith in Christ is no different from the unbaptized person who has never placed their faith in Christ.

John 1:12. I would ask how do you interpret “he gave power to become children of God”. What is the power and what are the responsibilities of a child of GOD?

We become children of God by receiving Christ. The responsibilities of a child of God are to obey God, their father. The power of a child of God is the power given to us by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Also, continue to verse 16 And from his fullness have we all received, grace upon grace. I understand how Catholics receive grace upon grace, how do you receive additional grace?

As I have said before, through faith, we make use of the means of grace provided for our further sanctification: the works of mercy and the works of piety.

 

[ltwin]

Faith and Grace are not synonyms.

I didn’t say they were. The verse was cited to show that sanctification (cleansing of the heart) is impossible without faith, which goes back to the larger question you asked, which was “Where does it say that ‘everything’ we receive from God is through faith?”

1 Peter 1:5 go to 17 And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile. If our works have zero value how come we are judged by them?

MT1926, my point in citing 1 Peter 1:5 was not to say that “works have zero value.” Where are you getting this from? Not from me. Once again, you asked me, “Where does it say that ‘everything’ we receive from God is through faith?”

To answer that question, I wrote that Scripture shows that we can have conditional security of our salvation in Christ. 1 Peter 1:5 says this, “who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

When we possess genuine faith, we can rest secure in the promises of God We need not fear whether we are truly saved or not. We can have peace and rest in Christ, knowing that we are “guarded through faith for a salvation to be revealed in the last time.”

Notice that I labeled this “conditional security.” If you continue to read, the writer states, “so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.”

Romans 11. St. Paul is referencing Jesus parable about the branches. And why were they cut off? Because they bore no fruit (good works).

Once again, this was part of an answer to your question “Where does it say that ‘everything’ we receive from God is through faith?” In response, I said, one thing we receive by faith is conditional security.

The reason I cited Romans 11:20 is because it talks about our security in Christ through faith but it also cautions that such security is conditional on our faith. We forfeit our security in Christ through unbelief (which broadly incorporates disobedience since if we truly believed Christ we would also obey him).

 

[ATraveller]

You stumped me there. Luckily I was able to find how the term originated:

Some nondenominational churches have no altar or communion table, even if they retain the practice of the “altar call” that originated in the Methodist Church.[29][30][31]

Some Methodist and other evangelical churches practice what is referred to as an altar call, whereby those who wish to make a new spiritual commitment to Jesus Christ are invited to come forward publicly.[32] It is so named because the supplicants, at the end of the sermon, kneel at the altar rails, which are located around the altar within chancel.[33] Those that come forward will often recite a sinner’s prayer, which, in evangelical understanding, if truly heart-felt indicates that they are now “saved”. They may also be offered religious literature, counselling or other assistance. Many times it is said that those who come forth are going to “be saved”. This is a ritual in which the supplicant makes a prayer of penitence (asking for his sins to be forgiven) and faith (called in evangelical Christianity “accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour”).

[33]Warren, Rick. “Communicating to Change Lives - Teaching Notes”. Preaching for Life Change Seminar: International Version. p. 81. “The come forward invitation is a method that’s only about 180 years old. It was invented by Methodist churches in the late 17th century and later picked up and popularized by Charles Finney in the mid-1800s—and the majority of evangelical churches use that form today.”
Altar - Wikipedia

 

[ltwin]

I would ask how does one please God? By faith alone? OR By Loving God and Loving neighbor (which we call good works)

You are missing the point. You can’t love God without faith. You cannot please God without faith. You cannot even be sure of God’s existence without faith. From the human side of things, everything starts with faith.

Scripture is also clear that many will do good works in Christ’s name without ever truly knowing Christ, and he will tell them to depart. (See Matthew 7)

 

[James817]

I read mighty dress in that translation like miracles and signs.

 

[ltwin]

There is no altar in a Protestant setting. There is no priest, there is no sacrifice. So what does altar call even mean?

There is a priest. All Christians are members of a royal priesthood, and Christ is our high priest. There is a sacrifice. At the altar, we offer our bodies as living sacrifices (Romans 12:1). An altar need not be physical. In a spiritual sense, any place where we come to God in prayer to offer him our lives in consecration and perfect submission is an altar.