Questions about when people get "saved"

[steve-b]

You stumped me there. Luckily I was able to find how the term originated:

Some nondenominational churches have no altar or communion table, even if they retain the practice of the “altar call” that originated in the Methodist Church.[29][30][31]

Some Methodist and other evangelical churches practice what is referred to as an altar call, whereby those who wish to make a new spiritual commitment to Jesus Christ are invited to come forward publicly.[32] It is so named because the supplicants, at the end of the sermon, kneel at the altar rails, which are located around the altar within chancel.[33] Those that come forward will often recite a sinner’s prayer, which, in evangelical understanding, if truly heart-felt indicates that they are now “saved”. They may also be offered religious literature, counselling or other assistance. Many times it is said that those who come forth are going to “be saved”. This is a ritual in which the supplicant makes a prayer of penitence (asking for his sins to be forgiven) and faith (called in evangelical Christianity “accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour”).

[33]Warren, Rick. “Communicating to Change Lives - Teaching Notes”. Preaching for Life Change Seminar: International Version. p. 81. “The come forward invitation is a method that’s only about 180 years old. It was invented by Methodist churches in the late 17th century and later picked up and popularized by Charles Finney in the mid-1800s—and the majority of evangelical churches use that form today.”
Altar - Wikipedia

still, even among Methodists,

There is no altar in a Protestant setting, because there is no priest, there is no sacrifice in a Protestant service. So what does altar call even mean in a Protestant setting?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

There is no altar in a Protestant setting. There is no priest, there is no sacrifice. So what does altar call even mean?

There is a priest. All Christians are members of a royal priesthood, and Christ is our high priest. There is a sacrifice. At the altar, we offer our bodies as living sacrifices (Romans 12:1). An altar need not be physical. In a spiritual sense, any place where we come to God in prayer to offer him our lives in consecration and perfect submission is an altar.

Jesus at the last Supper, specifically ordained His apostles to specifically do what He just did, namely He instituted the Eucharist, He changed bread and wine into His body and blood. They (the apostles) then given the power to make and offer the sacrifice (and in extension the sacrament of the Eucharist) that Jesus just established.

In short
Lk 22:
17 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves; 18 for I tell you that from now on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” 19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this [ ποιεῖτε ] in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after supper, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

[ ποιεῖτε, ] = make, manufacture, construct, (b) do, act, cause.

Jesus gave HIS Apostles the power to do what He did.

There is no validly ordained priesthood in Protestantism, so none can make that happen.

 

[Reuben_J]

What is meant by “faith alone” is that doing good stuff outside of faith is meaningless when considering one’s spiritual condition. An atheist can feed a homeless man, but that good work cannot atone for sin. A lifelong church member’s good deeds in the church and in the world cannot apart from faith atone for sin.

Therefore, just as “only believing” cannot atone for sin, neither can doing good deeds atone for sin. Only Christ’s perfect sacrifice can atone for my sins. The cure for my human brokenness is found in Christ alone by his grace alone through faith alone.

I certainly get to cooperate with Christ. By faith, I am dead to sin and alive in Christ. By faith, Christ’s will is manifested in me as I began to perform the works he has ordained for me.

Yet, I am not saved by my works. I am saved by the grace of God alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

In other words, good works are part of salvation, but good works do not earn or cause or produce or merit salvation.

I refer to the first para. Thanks for saying that because I have meant to find out what non-Catholics believe in faith alone, and now you said it.

I think this is where we differ. Good work or goodness does save.

I don’t quite remember but maybe it was Mother Teresa or another nun, who said that when there is goodness, God will honor it in some ways.

Does not matter whether one is a Christian or not, but goodness or love, is honored by God. And when we do it in our lives and being free from sin, God will recognize the purity of our hearts. That is why Catholics believe in invincible ignorance.

Good work is love, a virtue, and brings us away from sins. It may save us ultimately if we continue and persist in doing it.

 

[MT1926]

Salvation is a free gift we receive by faith. “Faith alone” does not mean “you need only believe.” To only believe would not be restoration of the pre-fallen condition.

Then quit using the word alone. Just say faith. Alone can mean on one’s own. Alone can mean no one else is present. Alone can mean being confined to the specific subject (faith). No where does alone mean other stuff is included.

What is meant by “faith alone” is that doing good stuff outside of faith is meaningless when considering one’s spiritual condition. An atheist can feed a homeless man, but that good work cannot atone for sin. A lifelong church member’s good deeds in the church and in the world cannot apart from faith atone for sin.

Drop the word alone and I totally agree.

Only Christ’s perfect sacrifice can atone for my sins.

AMEN!

The cure for my human brokenness is found in Christ alone by his grace alone through faith alone.

You honestly don’t see that you can’t use the word alone 3 times in the same sentence?

In other words, good works are part of salvation, but good works do not earn or cause or produce or merit salvation.

OK I need to start this by reaffirming that the Church teaches…The Council of Trent stressed: “[N]one of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification; for if it is by grace, it is not now by works; otherwise, as the Apostle [Paul] says, grace is no more grace” (Decree on Justification 8, citing Rom. 11:6).

So yes I totally agree nothing we can do (faith or works) can bring us to God to be saved. It’s all grace.

I think if you could tell me what a few verses say to you it might help.

Romans 2:6-11 St. Paul is speaking to Christians here whom he tells will be judged according to their works. He goes on to say these same people who do good deeds will be rewarded with eternal life. And the ones who don’t do good deeds won’t be rewarded. I’m not saying it is by works alone that we enter heaven. I’m not even saying we are the ones doing the work, but it sure looks like God rewards us for out cooperation.

The analogy that made sense to me is a father is pushing a 400 lb wheelbarrow up a hill, when his 4 year old comes over and says can I help. The 4 year puts his hand on the side of the wheelbarrow as they work their way up the hill. When they get to the top of the hill the father is so excited, lifts the child up and says you did it. Did the child do a bit of physical work their? No but the father rewards the son for his cooperation.

Matthew 25:31-46 Why would Jesus tell the sheep they inherited the kingdom because of their good deeds and the goats were damned for not doing good deeds? He doesn’t say your faith produced good works? No where does it say the sheep had faith alone and the goats didn’t?

One last question that just dawned on me. Does your faith merit salvation?

God Bless

 

[Gorgias]

Salvation is a free gift we receive by faith.

What’s really interesting in the soteriology you present here is that it’s really close to what the Catholic Church teaches!!!

What is meant by “faith alone” is that doing good stuff outside of faith is meaningless when considering one’s spiritual condition. An atheist can feed a homeless man, but that good work cannot atone for sin. A lifelong church member’s good deeds in the church and in the world cannot apart from faith atone for sin.

Yes, and no. I’m following you, but then you seem to go off the rails. I get why you’d call the good works of a non-believer “meaningless good stuff”, but why would you equate that with “a lifelong church member’s good deeds in the church and in the world”? Why would you characterize his good works as works “apart from faith”? That doesn’t make any sense… unless you’re simply attempting to make the case that works mean nothing. After all, you’re going all ‘apples and oranges’ with your comparison here…

Therefore, just as “only believing” cannot atone for sin, neither can doing good deeds atone for sin.

Again, you seem to be moving the goal posts. I would completely agree with you if you had said “just as ‘only believing’ cannot atone for sin, neither can ‘only doing good deeds’ atone for sin.”

Yet, that’s not what you wrote, and in doing so, you weaken your argument.

The cure for my human brokenness is found in Christ alone by his grace alone through faith alone.

Fair enough, except that I’d quibble that you’ve got too many unScriptural ‘alones’ in that sentence.

I certainly get to cooperate with Christ. By faith, I am dead to sin and alive in Christ. By faith, Christ’s will is manifested in me as I began to perform the works he has ordained for me.

Yep, Catholics believe that, too.

Yet, I am not saved by my works. I am saved by the grace of God alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

Right. Our good works are merited by Christ, whose grace operating in our hearts allows us to do these good works. However, here’s the place where Catholic theology diverges from yours: Catholics believe that Jesus shares the merit due to Him from our good works with us. Therefore, good works do figure into the equation. (After all, if not, then you’d be saying that the grace Christ gives which enables good works, is sterile – it is of no effect. That dog just don’t hunt.) Good works do merit salvation – but only inasmuch as Christ shares that merit with us. It’s still “all grace” – that is, “all gift” – but there is giftedness in works motivated by faith in Christ, too.

In other words, good works are part of salvation, but good works do not earn or cause or produce or merit salvation.

Again, you’re moving the goalposts. “Good works alone do not earn or cause or produce or merit salvation”? Absolutely. Once you remove the ‘alone’ from the statement, though, you’re saying something completely different – and something that Scripture doesn’t say, either!

 

[Gorgias]

An altar need not be physical. In a spiritual sense, any place where we come to God in prayer … is an altar.

Just curious… is there anywhere in Scripture that says “you don’t need an altar” or “every place is an altar”? I mean, I know that Christ says that we will no longer worship in Jerusalem nor on the mountain in Samaria, but will worship in spirit and truth… but that doesn’t say that we will worship anywhere and perceive ‘virtual altars’ everywhere in creation…

 

[MT1926]

The purpose of the verses I cited was to show that by faith we receive everything we need from God whether it be sanctification, healing, peace, victory over the world and sin, or to have communion with Christ.

And they were great verses about faith. But if you are going to use exclusive words like “ALONE” and “EVERYTHING” then the burden of proof is on you. Please don’t pull a James White on me. That debate he had were he asked everyone to give him a pass because he is being asked to prove something that no one can possible prove. It was some stupid pen analogy where he said you are asking me to search the whole universe or something like that. Well if you are using an un-provable claim then quit using it, or changing it’s definition.

As I have said before, through faith, we make use of the means of grace provided for our further sanctification: the works of mercy and the works of piety.

So YOUR faith gives you additional grace but YOUR faith isn’t something you do?

I’ll answer the Baptism in a separate post

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

Baptism is a means of grace… Of course, baptism as an action does not merit salvation.

This is confusing. How does one get baptized without doing an action or going through the motion?

I know you need to stick to your guns and say no work, even through Christ, merits salvation.

But do you even understand a little of what I am trying to say?

If the action doesn’t merit anything, has zero value, then it doesn’t need to be performed.

It seems you are trying to separate the grace of baptism from the water. Is that possible?

We become children of God by receiving Christ.

When does this occur?

The responsibilities of a child of God are to obey God, their father.

Does obeying include actions the child must perform?

Does a father tend to reward their children when they obey?

The power of a child of God is the power given to us by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

WHEN? and HOW? does the child receive this indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Thanks for your time,

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

I didn’t say they were. The verse was cited to show that sanctification (cleansing of the heart) is impossible without faith, which goes back to the larger question you asked, which was “Where does it say that ‘everything’ we receive from God is through faith?”

Yes cleansing of the heart is impossible without faith. But my point is ‘everything’ we receive from God is through grace (not faith)?”

MT1926, my point in citing 1 Peter 1:5 was not to say that “works have zero value.” Where are you getting this from? Not from me.

I think you are missing my point. I agree good works through Christ has tremendous value, but we value them differently. You are saying they have no meritorious value. I don’t agree. We are talking salvation here, if cooperating with God, to love neighbor, is not necessary to be saved then it has no value. If our works don’t merit grace to perfect us for salvation then in the big picture of eternal salvation works have no value.

We forfeit our security in Christ through unbelief (which broadly incorporates disobedience since if we truly believed Christ we would also obey him).

To me it seems you agree with Catholic teaching you just lump it all under Faith and don’t agree that the Catholic Church separates it into different categories.

Personally I don’t see what the big deal is. Because when push comes to shove you define faith to include something you have to do which makes it a work.

I still don’t agree with everything coming from faith. If you want to change that to grace I think we are on the same page.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

You are missing the point. You can’t love God without faith. You cannot please God without faith. You cannot even be sure of God’s existence without faith. From the human side of things, everything starts with faith.

No you are missing the point. Everything starts with grace.

Faith is an action of the will, if you believe everything starts with faith then you believe it all starts with you. It doesn’t start on the human side. You couldn’t even have faith if God didn’t first give you the graces needed to have that faith.

God gives us additional graces from our faith. These additional graces allow us to do good works. I’m good with that. If you want to say these good works strengthen our faith and because of this strengthen faith God gave us more grace fine. I’m good with that to. But you need to admit that the point is evident… our strengthen faith could not have occurred without the good works. This means the good works are the primary cause of the increased grace and that increase in grace would not have occurred without the works.

God Bless

 

[Tis_Bearself]

You couldn’t even have faith if God didn’t first give you the graces needed to have that faith.

Exactly. Faith is not something we manufacture ourselves or will ourselves to have. . It’s a gift from God.

 

[Reuben_J]

MT1926:

You couldn’t even have faith if God didn’t first give you the graces needed to have that faith.

Exactly. Faith is not something we manufacture ourselves or will ourselves to have. . It’s a gift from God.

Yes, faith is a gift (from God) and because it is a gift, it is therefore a grace. The wretchedness of man is that we need grace. Without it we cannot love as God wants us to love, or even have faith as God wants us to. We are nothing without the grace of God.

Having faith is by grace so that we cannot boast of it as if it is by our human endeavor. I wonder how Protestants can claim to have faith without the grace of God.

 

[lanman87]

I wonder how Protestants can claim to have faith without the grace of God.

We don’t. There are two primary views of how faith comes from Grace in American Evangelical Circles.

Prevenient grace which is held by most American Evangelicals. Including Methodist, Southern Baptist, and most Pentecostals.

Irresistible Grace which is held by Calvinist and Reformed Churches such as Presbyterian and Reformed Baptist.

The majority of American Evangelicals hold to Prevenient Grace as the Southern Baptist and United Methodist are the two largest denominations in America. You can also include the Assemblies of God, Church of the Nazerene, Church of God and most non-denominational Pentecostal/Charismatic churches.

 

[tgGodsway]

So all we have to do is believe Jesus is the Christ and we are done?

Do we have to believe and trust in the things He told us to do?

Do we have to obey the commands He gave us?

It depends on what you mean by “all done.” Since we begin with the premise that eternal salvation is a free gift, to be received by faith, then concerning eternal salvation, the answer is yes. It is a gift to be received by faith, apart from works. This is why the front of my bible has the words “Good News!” It is good news that we can be eternally saved (in spirit) from the penalty of sin. This salvation doesn’t have to wait for any future results or behaviors. Why? because it is a “no strings” attached gift given by a generous God who loves sinners. All that is required of us is to “believe” it.

Do we have to believe and trust in the things he told us to do?

Depends on for what purpose? So the answer is yes and no. The salvation of our spirit is a finished work. The salvation of our soul (=literal life) is up to us to cooperate with God’s leading. It requires us to sell-out to God’s way of doing things. It is treated as a journey from point A to point B Point A is when we receive Christ. Point B is at the end of our literal life.

Do we have to obey the commands he gave us? This too depends on why we would obey. For what purpose? If it is because we simply love God then we have arrived at the absolute best reason to serve with good works. If it is because we want to be blessed by God. That too is better than not serving at all. But if we do not want to obey we sign our death certificate, so to speak, in that God’s provision dries up. He resist the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

If we want to live a good and blessed life, then we will obey the commands of God. Those commands lead to abundant life. If we want to live for “self” then we can go ahead it will be disastrous and painful. It’s just like the story Jesus told about how one builds a house on sand. When the wind and rain come and blow down the house, it will be no fault of God. It will destroy our lives.

But since our eternal life was a free Gift and has secured us from eternal hell, and because our God is merciful to our weaknesses, ignorance’s, and even outright rebellion, we remain with His Gift.

 

[MT1926]

Thanks for coming back.

It depends on what you mean by “all done.” Since we begin with the premise that eternal salvation is a free gift, to be received by faith, then concerning eternal salvation, the answer is yes.

I don’t begin with this premise, I believe eternal security is received by grace, but I understand where you are going with it. I’m more interested in the not being able to lose it part, so we can shelve the works part right now.

This salvation doesn’t have to wait for any future results or behaviors. Why? because it is a “no strings” attached gift given by a generous God who loves sinners. All that is required of us is to “believe” it.

Could you point me to where we are told all we have to do is believe? The reason I ask is because although I agree that it is a free gift, I’m not so sure about the “no strings attached” part. Sure seems like a lot of stuff in there that Jesus commanded us to do. Also, when I read the Bible it sure seems like Jesus out right tells us it is not enough for us to just believe.

The salvation of our spirit is a finished work.

Let me get this straight so if you were to turn your back on God 20 years from now and come on these forums trying to convince everyone there is no God you would still be saved?

You never explained the biblical basis for saved in spirit/ saved in soul so it is hard for me to follow where you are going with this.

It requires us to sell-out to God’s way of doing things. It is treated as a journey from point A to point B Point A is when we receive Christ. Point B is at the end of our literal life.

So if we are no longer in God’s good graces at point B are we still saved?

But if we do not want to obey we sign our death certificate, so to speak, in that God’s provision dries up. He resist the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

This is what confuses me it seems that you are saying this person will no longer be saved they signed their death certificate ( I’m guessing you mean Hell here?)

But then you go onto say…

But since our eternal life was a free Gift and has secured us from eternal hell, and because our God is merciful to our weaknesses, ignorance’s, and even outright rebellion, we remain with His Gift.

This is what I meant when I said all done. I believe Jesus is the Son of God. I believe He made Himself a sacrifice for our sins. I believe that He is the only way to heaven. Am I all done now? Can I go about living my life, putting my needs first and doing what makes me happy and still be saved?

I’m not trying to be a jerk with this comment. I truly want to know the answer, because when I hear eternal security this is what I think. Basically, can the worst case scenario still be saved.

I just heard a real good talk on Baptism, I will post it for you when I get more time and you can give me your thoughts.

God Bless

 

[toaslan]

Tis Bearself, is that you? Please forgive me for butting in here, but our interchange on Disqus seems to have staledated, and I can’t find how to contact you there, so I looked here for you, if this is you??? Are you the Tis Bearself who is ready to pray on Dec 12 in our Rosary On The Coasts And Borders? We need both the states you said you could cover, but we are narrowing down now, and I want to be in touch with you about it! If this is you, or if this Tis Bearself is also interested, please go to
https://disqus.com/home/discussion/channel-tobecatholic/rosary_on_the_coasts_and_borders/newest/
and you will be up to date. Otherwise would you be willing to email me at toaslan1930@yahoo.com? THANKS, pm.

 

[ltwin]

You honestly don’t see that you can’t use the word alone 3 times in the same sentence?

Come on now. This is getting ridiculous.

"I traveled to Atlanta by plane alone and then traveled to Charleston by train alone from which I drove to Columbia in a rental car alone.

Notice that each “alone” is referencing a different object. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Notice the different prepositions.

 

[ltwin]

Having faith is by grace so that we cannot boast of it as if it is by our human endeavor. I wonder how Protestants can claim to have faith without the grace of God.

That is not what I was claiming. My comment has been taken wildly out of context.

 

[ltwin]

No you are missing the point. Everything starts with grace.

I agree, but this conversation is starting to get really confused. When speaking of how we please God, pleasing God starts with faith. Yes, we do please God when we love him and our neighbors. Yes, we please God when we perform good works, but we cannot do these things without faith.

Faith is an action of the will, if you believe everything starts with faith then you believe it all starts with you.

Hold on now. I know we’ve been exchanging ideas for several days now, but you should know by now that this is not what I believe. I’ve been very clear about the role of grace in salvation.

It doesn’t start on the human side.

I agree, but there is a human side. We cannot cooperate with God without faith.

But you need to admit that the point is evident… our strengthen faith could not have occurred without the good works. This means the good works are the primary cause of the increased grace and that increase in grace would not have occurred without the works.

Good works are important and beneficial to us when they arise from faith in Christ.

 

[MT1926]

Come on now. This is getting ridiculous.

"I traveled to Atlanta by plane alone and then traveled to Charleston by train alone from which I drove to Columbia in a rental car alone.

Notice that each “alone” is referencing a different object. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Notice the different prepositions.

No offense but this comparison is ridiculous.

Yes each alone is referencing a different object. However, the object is not the problem with the statement. The destination is the problem.

You are saying you used one mode of transportation to get to one destination, then a different mode to get to a different destination. Then a third mode to get to a third destination.

Well the statement …We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Notice the different prepositions.

Saved is the destination, but you are claiming 3 modes of transportation to get there and claiming each mode is the sole way to get there.

Do you honestly not see the difference?