Questions about when people get "saved"

[tgGodsway]

You make a good point MT. I am not aware of a multiplicity of essentials in the Bible. I am not sure if the sum of thy word will give us a list. Like I said before, the only one I can see from the apostolic circle is about the person of Christ. 1st John 4 deals with that. Also Jesus own words when He said I am the way and the Truth and the life no one comes to the Father except through Me. I don’t think I’ve ever studied that particular point.

 

[Latin]

…continued

Latin:

There is no magic level of works one needs to achieve in order to go to heaven.

One is saved (JIMMY IS SAYING IN CONTEXT AS A BABY) the moment one is initially justified.

Yes he says this but he qualifies what he says here by saying…

The only things one then does is good works because one loves God (the only kind which receive rewards) and not choose to cast out God’s grace by mortal sin. And even if one does cast it out by mortal sin, the only thing needed to get it back was the same thing needed to get it in the first place — repentance, faith, and sacrament, except the sacrament in this case is confession rather than baptism.

Jimmy never says one can not lose their salvation. You are picking and choosing from his words to make it sound like he does, and passing it off as Catholic teaching. Jimmy tells us right here we can cast out God’s grace (those words are what a Catholic understands is what we do when we lose our salvation) when we commit mortal sin.

He goes on to define what he means here…

People try to make the Catholic message sound complex, but it’s really simple: “Repent, believe and be baptized; then if you commit mortal sin, repent, believe, and confess. Period.” — even a five year old child can understand that.

In a Catholic context we believe mortal sin separates us from Christ. If we die in a state of mortal sin we can not inherent eternal life. From a human point of view we lost our salvation. From God’s point of view nothing was lost because He already knew we would turn from Him in mortal sin.

That’s why I will never agree with Once Saved Always Saved. Because the only possible way of saying you are OSAS is to say you are able to see from God’s point of view.

I really like how he says it here…

From a Catholic perspective, repentance, faith, and baptism are just as easy to get across in an evangelistic appeal as they are for Protestants; in fact, they are easier since one doesn’t have to explain, “Okay, repentance and faith are necessary, but baptism isn’t, but it’s still really important, and so you need to do it, okay?” On the Catholic view, the message of the elements we have to preach is much simpler: Repent, believe, and in the saving waters, receive the righteousness of God.

Of course, a Calvinist can say (as a Thomistic Catholic would say) that both cooperation in the giving and the embracing of the eternal call are themselves produced (not just enabled) by God’s grace, and this is perfectly fine.

A Calvinist and a Catholic alike can say that our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation. No problem at all. End quote.

Not sure where this came from, it wasn’t in Jimmy’s article. Since I can’t read the context I won’t comment.

God Bless

God bless you MT and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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I’m sorry MT but you speaking another article of Jimmy not what I have written as follows:
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Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
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RIGHTEOUSNESS AND MERIT by James Akin.

Quote: Protestants who say, … Catholics believe we must do good works in order to become justified — a position which was explicitly condemned at Trent, which taught “nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification” (Decree on Justification 8).

Justification is the cause, not the consequence, of good works.

The Church teaches that we are made totally righteous — we receive 100% pure righteousness — in justification.

You don’t have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven.

There is no magic level of works one needs to achieve in order to go to heaven.

One is saved the moment one is initially justified.

Of course, a Calvinist can say (as a Thomistic Catholic would say) that both cooperation in the giving and the embracing of the eternal call are themselves produced (not just enabled) by God’s grace, and this is perfectly fine.

A Calvinist and a Catholic alike can say that our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation. No problem at all. End quote.
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There are no babies in the above article at all, Jimmy’s intention is to refute the Protestant accusations that we Catholics have to work for our salvation.
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Heaven is God’s free gift for us, we get our glory and position in heaven according to the outcome of the Judgment of our Works of Love. – 1 Cor.3:12-15.
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Yes I’m a Catholic and I don’t have a plan to be an ex Catholic.
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In the future I will explain my posts more carefully and cannot be misunderstanding.
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Even as you MT misunderstood my above posts # 322 – 328 they came out from the HIGHEST LEVEL teachings of the Catholic Church and every words 100 % correct. – I can defend every words of it with the Scripture and with the HIGHEST LEVEL teachings of the Catholic Church.
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I like your post # 168, I will answer that. - You MT asked the question and I will give you the correct answer according to the SCRIPTURE and the HIGHEST LEVEL teachings of the Catholic Church.
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God bless you MT and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[MonteRCMS]

Dear tgGodsway,

Catholic Answers was founded by a fellow named Karl Keating.

He has written a lot and two of his books I am pleased to recommend to you.

“Catholicism and Fundamentalism” is one.

“What Catholics Really Believe” is the other.

They are excellent and address what appear to be your central areas of interest.

Both are available from the store here on Catholic Answers.

 

[MT1926]

I’m sorry MT but you speaking another article of Jimmy not what I have written as follows:

Well how about helping the rest of us out and posting a link to the article you used?

Here’s where I got the article…

http://jimmyakin.com/righteousness-and-merit

The link is directly to Jimmy Akin’s web site and the exact article you use in your title.

RIGHTEOUSNESS AND MERIT by James Akin.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

You make a good point MT. I am not aware of a multiplicity of essentials in the Bible. I am not sure if the sum of thy word will give us a list. Like I said before, the only one I can see from the apostolic circle is about the person of Christ. 1st John 4 deals with that. Also Jesus own words when He said I am the way and the Truth and the life no one comes to the Father except through Me. I don’t think I’ve ever studied that particular point.

Thank you I appreciate you admitting this.

Now if the Bible doesn’t out right tell us what is and isn’t essential how can we claim what is and isn’t essential?

I don’t want to switch the subject back to Baptism here, let’s stick to discussing essentials, but let’s use it as an example.

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Now I’m sure we both agree that believe is an essential, even though the Bible doesn’t outright tell us so, correct?

Well if the Bible doesn’t outright tell us belief is essential, but we make the claim that it is essential. The we go read the Bible and see all of these believers being baptized, over and over in the Bible. Wouldn’t that be telling us something?

Regardless of our arguments as to whether or not the actual baptism saves or not, wouldn’t the fact that belief (which is essential) and baptism are tied together so often in the Bible at least make Baptism an essential?

Thanks again,

God Bless

 

[Gorgias]

Consider the work of William Tyndale, one of the greatest masters of both the Hebrew and Greek languages. The man spoke I think five different languages. He risked his life to give us the English translation of the bible. The RCC burned him at the stake. What was him crime? He wanted to give the body of Christ the word of God in English. This was a totally political act of evil by the spiritual authorities in Rome.

Wow. You’re not helping your case, @tgGodsway. Please read up a bit on history. Tyndale was killed by secular authorities, not the Church (due largely to his outcry against Henry VIII’s annulment; predictably, Henry was none too pleased at that, and asked for Tyndale to be handed over to him). The Church did declare him a heretic – not for the act of translating the Bible into English, but for the heretical content in the translation itself.

The killing of Tyndale, though, belongs to secular authorities. It was a “totally political act of evil”, but not committed by “the spiritual authorities in Rome”.

 

[Gorgias]

For me, I can only find one essential condition in order to be in fellowship with other Christians. That essential condition is to believe that Jesus is the Christ. He is the essential revelation.

I can fellowship with a Roman Catholic, a Protestant Reformed, a fundamentalist, an Evangelical, a Charismatic. Why? because all of these groups believe the exact same thing about the person of Christ. But I cannot enjoy fellowship with a Jehovah’s witness or a Mormon. Why? They do not share this fundamental truth.

Yet, Mormons do meet your essential condition: they do “believe that Jesus is the Christ.” They just don’t believe He’s God, in the Trinitarian sense most other Christians do. Maybe you need to reconsider your “essential conditions”…?

 

[hope]

I haven’t seen it perhaps you can point them out to me. There have been threads about it.

 

[tgGodsway]

Gorgias, consider the teachings of the Apostle John in 1st. John 5:1, “whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God…” If a Christian cannot belief this, he/she is not a Christian at all.

The Christ = anointed Messiah, or divine one, in the mind of the Jewish people was the God come in flesh of Jn.1:14.

If a Mormon is able to confess that Jesus is the Christ, despite his affiliation, he is born of God.(1st. Jn. 4:1,2)

I have thought about this before. It would be a highly unusual thing, but I guess possible.

For the Mormon, His savior is one of many gods in the universe from what I understand about it.

 

[tgGodsway]

Now if the Bible doesn’t out right tell us what is and isn’t essential how can we claim what is and isn’t essential?

But the bible does proclaim what is essential. I just said that I cannot find a LIST of essential things directly shown in the bible.
But again I do find one essential element based on John’s writings on this narrow subject. 1st. John 4:1; 5:1 along with the many passages in his gospel seem to be very consistent about how we can know who is “in God” and who is not.

I suppose Paul’s letters do the same but not with such a thrust we see in John.

 

[MT1926]

But the bible does proclaim what is essential. I just said that I cannot find a LIST of essential things directly shown in the bible.

But again I do find one essential element based on John’s writings on this narrow subject. 1st. John 4:1; 5:1 along with the many passages in his gospel seem to be very consistent about how we can know who is “in God” and who is not.

I suppose Paul’s letters do the same but not with such a thrust we see in John.

That’s my point. You can find what is essential to your faith, and I can find what is essential to my faith and someone else can find something totally different than both of us that is essential to their faith. If the Bible doesn’t point out what is and isn’t essential how can you say Baptism isn’t essential if the Bible never outright tells us whether it is or isn’t?

 

[tgGodsway]

So, who did the CC side with when it came to William Tyndale, a brave man of God? Who’s side was the King of England on?

 

[Gorgias]

If a Mormon is able to confess that Jesus is the Christ, despite his affiliation, he is born of God.(1st. Jn. 4:1,2)

I have thought about this before. It would be a highly unusual thing, but I guess possible.

For the Mormon, His savior is one of many gods in the universe from what I understand about it.

He’s still his savior, though. Google “do Mormons believe that Jesus is the Christ” for the answer. From Mormons. In contradiction to what you say about them.

 

[Gorgias]

So, who did the CC side with when it came to William Tyndale, a brave man of God?

It sided with “brave men of God” who weren’t writing heresy into their Scripture translations.

 

[MT1926]

I wanted to try this one more time with a different essential

You said.

Just off the top of my head, an essential doctrine is to believe that Jesus is the Christ. He is divine. He is 100 percent God and 100 percent man. An essential is to believe what Jesus’ taught on the Trinity. That God is three persons, distinct from each other, yet share one nature and substance.

As a Christian I totally agree that these are essentials. However, only the 1st one is explicit in scripture. The Trinity wasn’t deemed and essential truth until the Catholic Church had to deal with the Montanus heresy. And no where in scripture can we see …“That God is three persons, distinct from each other, yet share one nature and substance.” The doctrine of the Trinity isn’t really something one can see in scripture without being told what it is.

That’s the heart of the question, how can we as Christians say to Mormons that the Trinity is an essential of the faith if it is not shown or said to be an essential in the Bible?

 

[tgGodsway]

The Tri-unity of God is implicitly taught in the O.T. such as finding the voice of God in a plural form, "… Let US make man in OUR image… Let US go down there to confuse their languages. etc. But until Christ began to expound, on Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it was virtually unknown.

However the Deut. 6:4 passage where the bible says, "Here O’ Israel, the Lord God is ONE, the Hebrew word there for ONE is in composite form, suggesting a unity of diversity.

But to more directly answer your question, I am not sure I would argue the Trinity as an essential to salvation only because it requires a fuller revelation of the godhead. But that revelation in my view cannot be understood by a natural man. Only those who have received the indwelling of the Spirit at New birth, can see it.

I’m sure Protestants in general will say that the trinity is essential for fellowship. I am not sure. It reminds me of those in Paul’s day who were teaching that the (2nd.)resurrection had past. Let me cut and paste that scripture:

2Ti 2:14 Remind them of these things, charging them before God not to fight about words; this is in no way profitable and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn’t need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth.
16 But avoid irreverent, empty speech, for this will produce an even greater measure of godlessness.
17 And their word will spread like gangrene; Hymenaeus and Philetus are among them.
18 They have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and are overturning the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, having this inscription: The Lord knows those who are His, and Everyone who names the name of the Lord must turn away from unrighteousness. 2 Tim. 2:14-19

I’d like your opinion on this MT

 

[tgGodsway]

Well, the Jehovah’s witness will stand at my door and tell me that they believe in Jesus Christ and savior of the world.

I guess it all depends on how they define the word. Can the Mormon say that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father and that there are no other gods before Him? No… they cannot.

For them, He is one of many… So are we talking about the same Jesus Christ? …

The Jehovah’s witness say that Jesus is a created being, Okay, that is an easy one. Their Jesus is not the same Jesus of holy scripture.

Jesus said He was the spirit of truth (Jn 14) that has come into the world. Are the Mormon’s in the truth in the fact that Jesus Christ is the only begotten of the Father and there are no other gods before Him? … says, Isaiah 43.

No… Many Mormons believe that Jesus is the brother of Lucifer the fallen angel… We believe that Jesus is the eternal Son who stepped into time and space from eternity and that His goings forth are from everlasting. Micah 5:2

 

[tgGodsway]

What heresy did William Tyndale write into his Translation? What was it that deserved death?

 

[Gorgias]

Well, the Jehovah’s witness will stand at my door and tell me that they believe in Jesus Christ and savior of the world.

I guess it all depends on how they define the word. Can the Mormon say that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father and that there are no other gods before Him? No… they cannot.

You didn’t say that your “essential” was “only begotten of the Father”. You said that the only essential was “Jesus is the Christ.”

For them, He is one of many… So are we talking about the same Jesus Christ? …

You didn’t say that your essential was “no other gods”, but just “the Christ”.

The Jehovah’s witness say that Jesus is a created being, Okay, that is an easy one. Their Jesus is not the same Jesus of holy scripture.

You didn’t say that your “essential” was… umm – wait a minute! Is Jesus, in his humanity, not a “created being”? No… the JWs might be incomplete in their understanding, but their assertion is correct! Jesus is a created being (although the Logos is eternal)!

You can see where I’m going, can’t you? You can make the claim of “essentials”… but when it comes down to it, you’re claiming the same thing that the Church Fathers asserted in their councils. You’re just attempting to avoid saying so, explicitly, it seems.