Questions about when people get "saved"

[JesusReigns]

St. Justin Martyr (c. 100-165). Here are some selections from his First Apology:

“I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. They then are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. . . . The reason for this we have received from the Apostles.”

 

[adamhovey1988]

I’m still looking for the verse in the Bible that says once saved always saved

 

[Reuben_J]

tgGodsway:

But to more directly answer your question, I am not sure I would argue the Trinity as an essential to salvation only because it requires a fuller revelation of the godhead.

…

It seems to me St. Paul is telling Timothy I have already taught you the essentials. You Timothy were given the authority, handed down from me, to preach the truth. Don’t allow someone else to pick apart what I have written and teach a deviation from the truth.

Timothy is basically being told don’t quarrel over words that are written on the page but stand firm in the oral teachings I have given you, to interpret these words, and like verse 25 says correct your opponents with gentleness.

Now back to the Trinity, the Catholic Church followed 2 Tim 2:14 when Arianism, which denied the divinity of Christ, was on the rise. Instead of fighting about the words in the Bible and what they mean they called the council of Nicea in 325 to once and for all proclaim the Trinity to be an essential dogmatic teaching of the faith.

Here’s an article on arianism that might help some.

Arianism | Catholic Answers

**I think the point is we need essentials for the Christian faith to be truth and to survive. You might not like looking Catholic Church History, most of which you were probably taught the original writings we have are all lies, but to ignore the Catholic Church and the part she played in history is to ignore the essentials of our Christian faith. **

In this day and age, being so far removed from the Apostles, I don’t think it is enough to say this is how I understand it and what I believe. I think if we want to find truth we have to study all of history to see where our truth came from. There are so many essentials to the faith which would not be if it wasn’t for the Catholic Church battling the heresies thought history. Yes you believe in the Trinity, but have you ever asked yourself why? Just imagine if the Catholic Church had no authority to call a council and put an end to Arianism, would Christians still believe in the essential of the Trinity? Where would our faith be today if we did not believe in the Trinity?

God Bless

Excellent post. To look into Church history, one has to look into the Catholic Church which was involved in every essential truth that Christians have today - like the BIble and the Trinity.

One can disagree with the Catholic Church but there is no denying that she was there to decide on these two basic truth, which was not by individuals but the Church.

 

[Latin]

God bless you MT and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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Thank you for your post.
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I loved Jimmy’s article, Justification in Catholic Teaching, when I read it it was a real Spiritual Feast. – I love Jimmy’s articles, I learned so much from his articles.

http://jimmyakin.com/justification-in-catholic-teaching
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RESISTING AND COOPERATING WITH GOD James Akin

Of course, a Calvinist can say (as a Thomistic Catholic would say) that both cooperations in the giving and the embracing of the eternal call are themselves produced (not just enabled) by God’s grace, and this is perfectly fine. A Calvinist and a Catholic alike can say that our cooperation is produced by God’s operation. No problem at all. End quote.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/COOPERAT.htm
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JIMMY’S ABOVE ARTICLE IS IN PERFECT HARMONY WITH THE SCRIPTURE AND CATHOLIC TEACHINGS
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CCCS = Catechism of the Catholic Church, Simplified.

Explaining Justification

The grace of God’s Justification CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is God’s free gift which detaches man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.

Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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The Grace of God’s Call (1996-1998)
Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us TO RESOND to his call.

This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will. End quote.
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Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
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GOD’S PROTECTION OF THE SALVATION OF EVERY OF HIS CHILD, CALLED TO ETERNAL LIFE.

Quote: St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:

[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . . that he may be kept from evil TILL the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10)
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This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.
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A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin

Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “That Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of “the gift of perseverance of which it is written:
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‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’ Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4].”
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Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is;
The gift of final perseverance always works.
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Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “The Gift of Final Perseverance.”
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The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance.
[43] Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere.
[44] Aquinas said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.”
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In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and guarding him against the attacks of the passions…” End quote
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At baptism every child,CALLED TO ETERNAL LIFE is a recipient of God’s free gift of Salvation/Everlasting Life and His special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, which is an Eternal Protection of the Salvation/Everlasting Life of every child of God.
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Without God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance every Child of God CALLED TO ETERNAL LIFE would end up in hell.
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Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
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Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
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Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
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ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION

De gratia Christi 25, 26:
"For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it."
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
"It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL."
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Similarly, the Council of Orange Canon 25 states, "In every good work, it is not we who begin … but He (God) first inspires us." (#329.2)
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CCC 154; Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. ….
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CCC 155; In faith, the human intellect and will cooperate with divine grace: "Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will MOVED by God through grace."
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CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
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In other words, when God commands, He capacities the hearer to respond.
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Our cooperation with the grace of God is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.

Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
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You said MT:
If you are saying OSAS then let’s talk about this article (Justification in Catholic Teaching by Jimmy Akin).

I dare to say OSAS, so let’s talk about this article in the light of the related theological facts, according to the HIGHEST LEVEL teachings of the Catholic Church.
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God bless you MT and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[MT1926]

I dare to say OSAS, so let’s talk about this article in the light of the related theological facts, according to the HIGHEST LEVEL teachings of the Catholic Church.

I don’t understand what you are saying here? Do you want to discuss the article or do you want to discuss the “HIGHEST LEVEL teachings of the Catholic Church”?

I respect Jimmy Akin so in my opinion what he says in his article should already be in accordance with Catholic teachings. If I am going to quote from Jimmy’s article I have no authority to pick out of it what I think he got right and what I think he got wrong.

Quotes from Jimmy’s Article on the possibility of losing one’s salvation…

Chapters 12 through 15 deal with the possibility of losing and regaining one’s salvation.

Here we are told that, without special revelation, one should not claim to know with infallible certitude that one is among those predestined for eternal life.

Instead, we must infer our predestination from the evidence with which we have been presented and, since human reason is fallible, we cannot know with infallible certainty of faith”—what Trent calls “the certainty of faith”—that we are among the predestined.

As mentioned before, many people think they are among the predestined but in fact they are not.

if one cannot know with infallible certainty that one is predestined then one also cannot know with infallible certainty that one has the gift of final perseverance

Chapter 14 affirms that it is possible to regain justification after having lost it through mortal sin

Chapter 15 establishes the conditions under which one may lose one’s justification (that is, one must commit mortal sin).

Assurance

Chapter nine brings to a close the discussion of our initial justification, and makes the very simple point that a person is not saved simply because he thinks he is.

Once Saved Always Saved comes from the mind of man, not from God. To claim you are among the predestined is to claim to know what only God knows.

God Bless

 

[Latin]

God bless you MT and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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You said MT:
Once Saved Always Saved comes from the mind of man, not from God.
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I believe, Once Saved Always Saved comes from the following teachings of the Catholic Church:
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The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a DE FIDE Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.
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Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

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(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience. End quote.
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THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita

THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):

Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.
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Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
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GOD’S PROTECTION OF OF THE SALVATION OF EVERY OF HIS CHILD, CALLED TO ETERNAL LIFE.
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Quote: St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:

[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . . that he may be kept from evil TILL the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10)
.
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This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.
.

A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin

Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “That Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of “the gift of perseverance of which it is written:
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‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’ Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4].”
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Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is;
The gift of final perseverance always works.
.
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Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “The Gift of Final Perseverance.”
.

The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance.
[43] Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere.
[44] Aquinas said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.”
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In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and guarding him against the attacks of the passions…” End quote
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At baptism every child,CALLED TO ETERNAL LIFE is a recipient of God’s free gift of Salvation/Everlasting Life and His special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, which is an Eternal Protection of the Salvation/Everlasting Life of every child of God.
.

Without God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance every Child of God CALLED TO ETERNAL LIFE would end up in hell.
.

Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
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CCCS = Catechism of the Catholic Church, Simplified.

Explaining Justification

The grace of God’s Justification CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is God’s free gift which detaches man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.

Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
.

The Grace of God’s Call (1996-1998)
Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us TO RESOND to his call.

This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will. End quote.
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a. According to the above teachings, everyone whom God called to Eternal Life, all IRREVOCABLY saved at their Initial Justification and they all received at their Initial Justification God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance which is an Eternal Protection of their Eternal Life, so they are Once Saved Always Saved.
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b. Without God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance everyone of them whom God called to Eternal Life would end up in hell.
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I proved my above two statements with the above teachings of the Catholic Church.

If you MT don’t agree with my above two statements, please prove, my above two statements are incorrect, you can choose whatever you like to prove my above statements are incorrect.
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God bless you MT and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[guanophore]

Once Saved Always Saved comes from the mind of man, not from God. To claim you are among the predestined is to claim to know what only God knows.

As it is taught, yes, but Catholics also endorse OSAS from a certain point of view - one with which Protestants will agree. From a Catholic viewpoint, there are aspects of salvation already completed, some that are in progress, and some that are completed at the end of this life. For the latter category, we believe those who die in a state of grace, in friendship with God, will be forever “saved”. They will be with Him in heaven, and will be prevented from ever being separated from Him.

 

[MT1926]

As it is taught, yes, but Catholics also endorse OSAS from a certain point of view - one with which Protestants will agree.

Yes but they take the teaching, of the Church and Church Fathers, and twist it to say what they want it to say.

From a Catholic viewpoint, there are aspects of salvation already completed, some that are in progress, and some that are completed at the end of this life.

AMEN

For the latter category, we believe those who die in a state of grace, in friendship with God, will be forever “saved”. They will be with Him in heaven, and will be prevented from ever being separated from Him.

I totally agree, but the only point I am trying to make to Latin is… No one, not even the Church, can tell us if that person died in a state of Grace, without revelation from God.

Latin is ignoring this fact in all of the statements he makes, which is dangerous and deceptive in my eyes.

 

[tgGodsway]

Yes I agree the Catholic Church, in it’s early days, before it’s days of inventing truth, taught and defended the trinity against outside forces and individuals. But defending something 4 centuries after the foundation was laid, is not a bragging right to the truth. I praise the CC for defending the Trinity, I 'm glad the Lord used this body to do so. But the CC of that day cannot be recognized in today’s CC.

You might not like looking Catholic Church History, most of which you were probably taught the original writings we have are all lies, but to ignore the Catholic Church and the part she played in history is to ignore the essentials of our Christian faith. **

You claim these truths as if they originated from the CC. No, they came from the apostolic Church who were predominately Jewish converts. These men founded and launched the Church from Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, Acts 1:8.

The Church at Rome DID play a part, and I recognize it, but remember that years later, the CC forced a power grab on the world in the 4th. century. They forced their way into a position not everyone in the east agreed on, even to this day.

As far as I know, they have not repented of this. How can I admire the weakest link in the chain?

 

[tgGodsway]

MT I was sure you brought this subject up, but I am too lazy to go and look. I guess I did. okay… so what’s next? … we have narratives that include water baptism and we have narratives that do not include it. One that comes to mind right now is, the Jailer of Acts 16, who had just witnessed the power of God on Paul and Silas. He ask a pivotal question: "What must I do to be saved? 16:30. Paul’s answer was so consistent with the gospel of John that it cannot be ignored. “Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” After giving them the answer Paul then took the Jailer’s family to wash their wounds. It was here that they were baptized.

I believe baptism plays a powerful role in the life of one who seeks Christ. But it too, as you have agreed, is not treated as a strict condition to receive eternal life.

I appeal to the Pauline standard that NO good works can add to, or complete the declared voice of God’s justification given to us when we “believe.”

 

[MT1926]

I proved my above two statements with the above teachings of the Catholic Church.

If you MT don’t agree with my above two statements, please prove, my above two statements are incorrect, you can choose whatever you like to prove my above statements are incorrect.

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God bless you MT and God bless every readers of the CAF.

You are misunderstanding my point. I am not saying predestination is not taught in the Catholic Church. All I am saying is the Catholic Church does not teach you can know with infallible certainty that you are among the predestined. You are presenting your argument in a way that makes it look like you are saying you do infallible know you are among the predestined.

Nothing you quote proves that you can have infallible certainty that you are one of the predestined.

Therefore, my statement stands…

To claim you are among the predestined is to claim to know what only God knows.

I am having dejavu here.

I had this exact same conversation with a guy back in March who copied and pasted the exact same information, with the exact same misconceptions, about Catholic teaching, you are posting. His tag was LatinRight. That’s not your account as well is it?

 

[MT1926]

I believe baptism plays a powerful role in the life of one who seeks Christ.

If it’s just a non-essential public ceremony why do it? Is it a requirement in your church?

…is not treated as a strict condition to receive eternal life.

No I said we are bound by the Sacraments, so for us it is a strict condition. I said God is not bound by His Sacraments, if He chooses to bypass Baptism and save someone that is his choice.

The Catholic Church doesn’t even proclaim that un-Baptized babies, who die, a guaranteed eternal life, we say they are left up to the mercy of God. However, we do believe Baptized babies, who die, are guaranteed eternal life.

What does your church teach in regards to your children who have not reached an age of reason and believe? Are they saved or not?

…NO good works can add to…

Baptism is not a work. With the exception of maybe crying or pooping could you please explain exactly what work the baby did when they were Baptized?

Acts 16,

Once again never said belief wasn’t important.

My question, which you have yet to answer, is why are so many people being Baptized if it wasn’t important?

Why did St. Paul take them that same hour? It was the middle of the night why is something unimportant so urgent?

Why didn’t St. Paul wait till the next day and do it in the presence of other Christians and have the “public ceremony proclaiming His death, burial and resurrection”?

After giving them the answer Paul then took the Jailer’s family to wash their wounds. It was here that they were baptized.

This is the exact point I’m trying to show you…

There is a comma in that verse, the washing and Baptism are two separate events.

Also read it again more closely.

I am saying this out of love, I am not trying to put you down or elevate myself. You need to think about this and seriously pray about this. Someone has convinced you to do whatever it takes to disagree. Look at the verse in context.

32 And they (Paul and Silas) spoke the word of the Lord to him (the jailer) and to all that were in his (the jailer’s) house. 33 And he (the jailer) took them (Paul and Silas) the same hour of the night, and washed their (Paul and Silas) wounds, and he (the jailer) was baptized at once, with all his (the jailer’s family) family.

You did here exactly what I just said you keep doing, you read what you wanted into the verse to discredit Baptism. Paul didn’t wash their wounds it was the other way around. See verse 22

22 The crowd joined in attacking them… 23 And when they had inflicted many blows upon them…

Paul and Silas had the wounds. After the jailer cleaned up Paul and Silas’ wounds, Paul grabbed the water and Baptized the jailer and his entire family. Why? Because it is an essential of the faith.

God Bless

 

[tgGodsway]

If it’s just a non-essential public ceremony why do it?

Why do anything for God?.. we do it because He first loved us and saved us. We do it because it shows the powerful handiwork of God. We do it because we love Him. Actually all good works should be done in gratitude for all He has done for us.

 

[tgGodsway]

Is it a requirement in your church?

For what? to be saved? No, to be in fellowship with us? no, not a requirement, but we do encourage people to be baptized. However if a person wants to be involved in our church on a doctrinal level, baptism I required. Also Church membership to our local body, is required if they want to in involved in teaching or other related ministries. No one is allowed to teach if they are not in unity with us doctrinally.

 

[tgGodsway]

. I said God is not bound by His Sacraments, if He chooses to bypass Baptism and save someone that is his choice.

God is bound to keep His word. He does not do anything willy-nilly. He has already promised to save those who believe. He is faithful to keep His word

 

[tgGodsway]

is why are so many people being Baptized if it wasn’t important?

Why did St. Paul take them that same hour? It was the middle of the night why is something unimportant so urgent?

Why didn’t St. Paul wait till the next day and do it in the presence of other Christians and have the “public ceremony proclaiming His death, burial and resurrection”?

MT … you miss the excitement of it. You miss the passion of it. You imply that urgency is needed lest it not stick. You better hurry up and get baptized before God changes His mind. This is not the case.

Water baptism IS a big deal, but not for the reasons you think. I was water baptized in a swimming pool in front of a huge party. They were not church folks. They were partyers drinking and shouting at us. One young lady, in her drunkenness, came into the water to ask us what we are doing. My buddy, Larry, who was the one baptizing me, turned and said, I am about to baptize these two young men, (there was one other.) “Stay right there and I will baptize you too!” She did.

After we both were baptized, Larry turned to the young lady and had a private conversation with her about believing in Jesus Christ to save her from her sins. She broke down in tears. Before you know it, she was getting baptized too. But a miracle happened. When she came up out of the water, she was no longer drunk. She was sober, totally. My friend and I were blown away at the wonders of God that day.

The young lady returned to her crowd at the side of the pool, and we went home.

Baptism symbolizes a spiritual deliverance from one place to another. Israel was saved when the death angel passed over them at the sight of blood on the doorpost. But Israel was not saved temporally from their enemies of Egypt, until they went through the literal waters of God’s plan to bring into their promise.

When a “believer” goes through the waters literally, I believe something spiritually happens in terms of deliverance. Not from hell to heaven, but from bondage to freedom. It to me speeds up one’s desire to walk with God, as opposed to one who refuses to be water baptized.