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MT1926
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Oops I meant TG. For tgGodsway.
Questions about when people get "saved"
- Thread starter Tis_Bearself
- Start date
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Gorgias
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He left?
Or just left the thread…?
(Despite the gulf in our perspectives over Tyndale, I was hoping he’d clarify where he sees “non-essential doctrines” being preached as such in Scripture…)
Or just left the thread…?
(Despite the gulf in our perspectives over Tyndale, I was hoping he’d clarify where he sees “non-essential doctrines” being preached as such in Scripture…)
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guanophore
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Don’t hold your breath!
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Vico
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Tyndale was executed in Vilvoorde in 1536 under the jurisdiction of Emperor Charles V, because of his translation of the Bible was heretical containing heretical ideas.
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Latin
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God bless you MT and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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You have many questions in your posts # 532 and 533, so I try to give you MT a systematic big picture on the subject of Predestination and Salvation.
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The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a DE FIDE Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA
THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.
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Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has
been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it
were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that
one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been
MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.
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(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,
follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the
predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be
UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to
CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of
certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience. End quote.
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THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita
THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):
Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.
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Continue
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You have many questions in your posts # 532 and 533, so I try to give you MT a systematic big picture on the subject of Predestination and Salvation.
.
.
The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a DE FIDE Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA
THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.
.
Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has
been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it
were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that
one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been
MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.
.
(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,
follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the
predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be
UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to
CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of
certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience. End quote.
.
THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita
THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):
Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.
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Continue
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Latin
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Continuation
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FR. WILLIAM MOST TEACHES THE SAME ABOVE THEOLOGICAL FACTS
Tuesday, April 2, 2013 Fr. William Most
What does the Catholic Church teach on Predestination?
Predestination is gratuitous: For even before God considers human merits, He predestines, and because the sole and total cause of predestination is the goodness and love of the Father which moves spontaneously WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition. End quote.
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MY VIEW ON THE ABOVE TEACHINGS
I believe the above teachings as it is written, I also believe the above teachings are 100 % correct.
Now I try to explain to you MT PREDESTINATION TO GRACE with my words (I have to admit English is my third language and officially I never studied it).
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Those people whom God WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition elected to be in heaven predestined all of them to heaven, by making their salvation sure at their Initial Justification/Baptism all received God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance which is an Eternal Protection of their Salvation/Eternal Life.
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From some of those people whom God doesn’t want in heaven, predestined some of them to grace FOR A LIMITED TIME PERIOD, so for a limited time-period they become real Christians.
Wen the limited time-period end God doesn’t supply for them any longer the grace need for them to stay in the Church so they all leave the Church and they all end up in hell. – Of course they never had and will never have a chance to go to heaven, they are all predestined to hell from all eternity.
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MY VIEW ON THE SO CALLED “PREDESTINATION TO GRACE.”
I have to confess I could never believe that God predestine anyone to the so called “predestination to grace” which is in fact a positive predestination to hell. – I don’t even believe negative or any kind of predestination to hell.
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Continue
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FR. WILLIAM MOST TEACHES THE SAME ABOVE THEOLOGICAL FACTS
Tuesday, April 2, 2013 Fr. William Most
What does the Catholic Church teach on Predestination?
Predestination is gratuitous: For even before God considers human merits, He predestines, and because the sole and total cause of predestination is the goodness and love of the Father which moves spontaneously WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition. End quote.
.
MY VIEW ON THE ABOVE TEACHINGS
I believe the above teachings as it is written, I also believe the above teachings are 100 % correct.
Now I try to explain to you MT PREDESTINATION TO GRACE with my words (I have to admit English is my third language and officially I never studied it).
.
Those people whom God WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition elected to be in heaven predestined all of them to heaven, by making their salvation sure at their Initial Justification/Baptism all received God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance which is an Eternal Protection of their Salvation/Eternal Life.
.
.
From some of those people whom God doesn’t want in heaven, predestined some of them to grace FOR A LIMITED TIME PERIOD, so for a limited time-period they become real Christians.
Wen the limited time-period end God doesn’t supply for them any longer the grace need for them to stay in the Church so they all leave the Church and they all end up in hell. – Of course they never had and will never have a chance to go to heaven, they are all predestined to hell from all eternity.
.
.
MY VIEW ON THE SO CALLED “PREDESTINATION TO GRACE.”
I have to confess I could never believe that God predestine anyone to the so called “predestination to grace” which is in fact a positive predestination to hell. – I don’t even believe negative or any kind of predestination to hell.
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Continue
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According to the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Predestination:
The majority of theologians STRONGLY CONTESTED not only positive predestination to hell/positive reprobation to hell, but they also STRONGLY CONTESTED even negative predestination to hell/negative reprobation to hell.
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Quote: Whatever view one may take regarding the internal probability of negative reprobation, it CANNOT be harmonized with the DOGMATICALLY certain UNIVERSALITY and sincerity of God’s salvific will.
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For the absolute predestination of the blessed is at the same time the ABSOLUTE will of God “NOT TO ELECT” a priori the rest of mankind (Suarez), or which comes to the same, “to EXCLUDE them from heaven” (Gonet), in other words, NOT to save them.
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How can that will to save be called serious and sincere which has DECREED from all eternity the metaphysical impossibility of salvation?
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He who has been reprobated negatively, may exhaust all his efforts to attain salvation: it avail’s him NOTHING.
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Moreover, in order to realize infallibly his decree, God is compelled to frustrate the eternal welfare of all excluded a priori from heaven, and to TAKE CARE that they die in their sins.
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(An explanation for you MT if you may not clearly understand the above statement:
If a predestined to grace would die in the state of grace, would end up in heaven and God would instantly lose His omniscience, so God would have to TAKE CARE that every predestined to grace die in the state of mortal sin.) – In the brackets added.
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Is this the language in which Holy Writ speaks to us?
No; there we meet an anxious, loving father, who wills not “that any should perish, but that ALL should return to penance” (2 Peter 3:9).
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Lessius rightly says that it would be INDIFFERENT to him whether he was numbered among those reprobated positively or negatively; for, in either case, his eternal damnation would be CERTAIN.
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The reason for this is that in the present economy exclusion from heaven means for adults practically the SAME THING as damnation.
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A middle state, a merely natural happiness, does not exist. End quote.
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Continue
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According to the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Predestination:
The majority of theologians STRONGLY CONTESTED not only positive predestination to hell/positive reprobation to hell, but they also STRONGLY CONTESTED even negative predestination to hell/negative reprobation to hell.
.
Quote: Whatever view one may take regarding the internal probability of negative reprobation, it CANNOT be harmonized with the DOGMATICALLY certain UNIVERSALITY and sincerity of God’s salvific will.
.
For the absolute predestination of the blessed is at the same time the ABSOLUTE will of God “NOT TO ELECT” a priori the rest of mankind (Suarez), or which comes to the same, “to EXCLUDE them from heaven” (Gonet), in other words, NOT to save them.
.
How can that will to save be called serious and sincere which has DECREED from all eternity the metaphysical impossibility of salvation?
.
He who has been reprobated negatively, may exhaust all his efforts to attain salvation: it avail’s him NOTHING.
.
Moreover, in order to realize infallibly his decree, God is compelled to frustrate the eternal welfare of all excluded a priori from heaven, and to TAKE CARE that they die in their sins.
.
(An explanation for you MT if you may not clearly understand the above statement:
If a predestined to grace would die in the state of grace, would end up in heaven and God would instantly lose His omniscience, so God would have to TAKE CARE that every predestined to grace die in the state of mortal sin.) – In the brackets added.
.
Is this the language in which Holy Writ speaks to us?
No; there we meet an anxious, loving father, who wills not “that any should perish, but that ALL should return to penance” (2 Peter 3:9).
.
Lessius rightly says that it would be INDIFFERENT to him whether he was numbered among those reprobated positively or negatively; for, in either case, his eternal damnation would be CERTAIN.
.
The reason for this is that in the present economy exclusion from heaven means for adults practically the SAME THING as damnation.
.
A middle state, a merely natural happiness, does not exist. End quote.
.
Continue
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THIS IS WHAT I BELIEVE AS FOLLOWS:
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence.
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Quote: Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
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It is grace of Christ that delivers us (Rom.7:25); and makes us co-heirs with Him (Rom.8:17).
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This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).
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It extends to all men (Romans 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:4), even to the reprobate Jews (Romans 11:26 sq.); and by it all God’s dealings with man are regulated (Ephesians 1:11).
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It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxviii in Matt.”, n. 3 in “P.G.”, LVII, 354).
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All things are created and governed with a view to man, to the development of his life and his intelligence, and to the satisfaction of his needs (Aristides, “Apol.”, i, v, vi, xv, xvi.
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Again, from the fact that God has created the universe, it shows that He must also govern it; for just as the contrivances of man demand attention and guidance, so God, as a good workman, must care for His work (St. Ambrose, “De Offic. minist.”, XIII in “P.L.”, XVI, 41; St. Augustine, “In Ps.”, cxlv, n. 12, 13 in “P.L.”, XXXVII, 1892-3.
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His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
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All things, whether due to necessary causes or to the free choice of man, are foreseen by God and preordained in accordance with His all-embracing purpose. (I, Q, xxii, a. 2; ciii, a. 5)
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That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.
.
The universe is a system of real beings created by God and directed by Him to this supreme end, the concurrence of God being necessary for all natural operations, whether of things animate or inanimate, and still more so for operations of the supernatural order.
.
God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.
.
In spite of sin, which is due to the wilful perversion of human liberty, acting with the concurrence, but contrary to the purpose and intention of God and in spite of evil which is the consequence of sin, He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
(Concurrence = Agreement or union in action: COOPERATION) – In the brackets is addition.
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Sin is not ordained by the will of God, though it happens with His permission.
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Continue
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THIS IS WHAT I BELIEVE AS FOLLOWS:
.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence.
.
Quote: Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
.
It is grace of Christ that delivers us (Rom.7:25); and makes us co-heirs with Him (Rom.8:17).
.
This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).
.
It extends to all men (Romans 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:4), even to the reprobate Jews (Romans 11:26 sq.); and by it all God’s dealings with man are regulated (Ephesians 1:11).
.
It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxviii in Matt.”, n. 3 in “P.G.”, LVII, 354).
.
All things are created and governed with a view to man, to the development of his life and his intelligence, and to the satisfaction of his needs (Aristides, “Apol.”, i, v, vi, xv, xvi
..
Again, from the fact that God has created the universe, it shows that He must also govern it; for just as the contrivances of man demand attention and guidance, so God, as a good workman, must care for His work (St. Ambrose, “De Offic. minist.”, XIII in “P.L.”, XVI, 41; St. Augustine, “In Ps.”, cxlv, n. 12, 13 in “P.L.”, XXXVII, 1892-3
..
His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
.
All things, whether due to necessary causes or to the free choice of man, are foreseen by God and preordained in accordance with His all-embracing purpose. (I, Q, xxii, a. 2; ciii, a. 5)
.
That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.
.
The universe is a system of real beings created by God and directed by Him to this supreme end, the concurrence of God being necessary for all natural operations, whether of things animate or inanimate, and still more so for operations of the supernatural order.
.
God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.
.
In spite of sin, which is due to the wilful perversion of human liberty, acting with the concurrence, but contrary to the purpose and intention of God and in spite of evil which is the consequence of sin, He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
(Concurrence = Agreement or union in action: COOPERATION) – In the brackets is addition.
.
Sin is not ordained by the will of God, though it happens with His permission.
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Continue
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Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;
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One reason therefore why God permits sin is that man may arrive at once at a consciousness of righteousness and of his own inability to attain it, and so may put his trust in God (Anon. epis. ad Diog., vii-ix in “P.G.”, II, 1175 sq.; St. Gregory the Great, “Lib. moral.”, III, lvii in “P.L.”, LXXV, 627).
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Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”
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Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
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Yet He is a just God, as well as a Saviour (Isaiah 45:21). Hence both good and evil proceed from Him (Lamentations 3:38; Amos 3:6; Isaiah 45:7; Ecclesiastes 7; 15; Sirach 11:14).
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God is the sole ruler of the world (Job 34:13). His will governs all things (Psalm 148:8; Job 9:7; Isaiah 40:22-6; 44:24-8; Sirach 16:18-27; Esther 13:9).
He loves all men (Wisdom 11:25, 27), desires the salvation of all (Isaiah 45:22; Wisdom 12:16), and His providence extends to all nations (Deuteronomy 2:19; Wisdom 6:8; Isaiah 66:18). End quote.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence
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KEY POINTS OF Divine Providence:
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Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;
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One reason therefore why God permits sin is that man may arrive at once at a consciousness of righteousness and of his own inability to attain it, and so may put his trust in God (Anon. epis. ad Diog., vii-ix in “P.G.”, II, 1175 sq.; St. Gregory the Great, “Lib. moral.”, III, lvii in “P.L.”, LXXV, 627).
.
Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”
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Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
.
Yet He is a just God, as well as a Saviour (Isaiah 45:21). Hence both good and evil proceed from Him (Lamentations 3:38; Amos 3:6; Isaiah 45:7; Ecclesiastes 7; 15; Sirach 11:14).
.
God is the sole ruler of the world (Job 34:13). His will governs all things (Psalm 148:8; Job 9:7; Isaiah 40:22-6; 44:24-8; Sirach 16:18-27; Esther 13:9).
He loves all men (Wisdom 11:25, 27), desires the salvation of all (Isaiah 45:22; Wisdom 12:16), and His providence extends to all nations (Deuteronomy 2:19; Wisdom 6:8; Isaiah 66:18). End quote.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence
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KEY POINTS OF Divine Providence:
- It is the grace of Christ that delivers us, this Providence, is wholly GRATUITOUS, entirely UNMERITED, it extends to ALL men, every individual, even to the REPROBATE Jews.
. - God DIRECTS ALL EVENTS, even evil and sin itself, BOTH good and evil proceed from Him within the universe for a perfect and HAPPY end for ALL creations.
. - At the end ALL CREATURES should manifest the glory of God.
. - In particular that MAN should GLORIFY HIM, serving Him in obedience and love, attaining to the full development of his nature and to ETERNAL HAPPINESS in God.
. - The concurrence of God being NECESSARY for ALL natural operations, whether of things animate or inanimate, and still more so for operations of the supernatural order.
. - God acts WITH and IN EVERY CREATURE in each and ALL its activities. God directs all, EVEN EVIL AND SIN ITSELF, to the final end for which the universe was created.
. - God preserves the universe in being; He acts WITH and IN every creature in each and ALL its activities.
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MY VIEW ON THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence.
I BELIEVE:
According to His wisdom God orders all events within the universe and He acts with and in every creature in each and all its activities.
.
It is the grace of Christ that delivers us, this Providence, is wholly GRATUITOUS, entirely UNMERITED, extends to ALL men, EVERY individual, even to the REPROBATE Jews. – Of course the same principle applies to all nations.
.
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Until the above knowledge I only saw a dreadful world, now I know this dreadfulness of the world happening for our benefit (Rom.8:28) for the reason to make us noble-minded and to enjoy perfect happiness in the next system and all things happening according to God’s Design/Plan/Universal Script for the benefit of ALL men, EVERY individual.
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When I see the world now; I see the works of God in the world for the BENEFIT of the whole creation, including for the BENEFIT of the entire human race which extends to all men, every individual, even to the reprobate Jews. – Rom.8:28.
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Continue
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MY VIEW ON THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence.
I BELIEVE:
According to His wisdom God orders all events within the universe and He acts with and in every creature in each and all its activities.
.
It is the grace of Christ that delivers us, this Providence, is wholly GRATUITOUS, entirely UNMERITED, extends to ALL men, EVERY individual, even to the REPROBATE Jews. – Of course the same principle applies to all nations.
.
.
Until the above knowledge I only saw a dreadful world, now I know this dreadfulness of the world happening for our benefit (Rom.8:28) for the reason to make us noble-minded and to enjoy perfect happiness in the next system and all things happening according to God’s Design/Plan/Universal Script for the benefit of ALL men, EVERY individual.
.
When I see the world now; I see the works of God in the world for the BENEFIT of the whole creation, including for the BENEFIT of the entire human race which extends to all men, every individual, even to the reprobate Jews. – Rom.8:28.
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THE POSITION THAT GOD AT THE END WILL SAVES EVERYONE IS NOT NEW
THE FOLLOWING EARLY FATHERS OF THE CHURCH ARE SAID TO HAVE TAUGHT THAT ALL WILL FINALLY BE SAVED
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Pantaenus; Clement of Alexandria; Origen; Athanasius; Didymus the Blind; Macarius of Egypt; Gregory Thaumaturgus; Ambrose; Ephraim; John Chrysostum; Gregory of Nyssa; Gregory of Nazianzus; Jerome of Bethlehem; Evagrius Ponticus; Titus of Bastra; Asterius of Amasea; Cyril; Methodius of Tyre; Pamphilius Eusibius; Hillary of Poitiers; Victorinus; Macrina the Younger; Dionysius the Areopagite; John Cassian; Maximus the Confessor; Proclus of Constantinople; Peter Chrysologus; Diodorus of Tarsus; Stephen bar Sudaili.
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The doctrine of universal salvation has become very popular in the modern Roman Catholic Church and more and more Catholic Priests teaching Universal Salvation.
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I believe Pope Francis also agree with universal salvation because he is the one who replaced Cardinal Gerhard Müller who was the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith until 02/07/2017, with Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria, Jesuit theologian who is openly teaching Universal Salvation since many years.
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In my opinion:
If Pope Francis would not believe Universal Salvation, he would not replace Cardinal Gerhard Müller with Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria, Jesuit theologian who is openly teaching Universal Salvation since many years.
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There is also a very good book on Universal Salvation:
Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Luis F. Ladaria SJ (Author)
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EDITORIAL REVIEWS
“Luis F. Ladaria SJ presents a powerful statement openly advocating the doctrine of universal salvation.
His advocacy of universal salvation is openly and undeniably proclaimed.” – David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK " David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK"
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Continue
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THE POSITION THAT GOD AT THE END WILL SAVES EVERYONE IS NOT NEW
THE FOLLOWING EARLY FATHERS OF THE CHURCH ARE SAID TO HAVE TAUGHT THAT ALL WILL FINALLY BE SAVED
.
Pantaenus; Clement of Alexandria; Origen; Athanasius; Didymus the Blind; Macarius of Egypt; Gregory Thaumaturgus; Ambrose; Ephraim; John Chrysostum; Gregory of Nyssa; Gregory of Nazianzus; Jerome of Bethlehem; Evagrius Ponticus; Titus of Bastra; Asterius of Amasea; Cyril; Methodius of Tyre; Pamphilius Eusibius; Hillary of Poitiers; Victorinus; Macrina the Younger; Dionysius the Areopagite; John Cassian; Maximus the Confessor; Proclus of Constantinople; Peter Chrysologus; Diodorus of Tarsus; Stephen bar Sudaili.
.
.
The doctrine of universal salvation has become very popular in the modern Roman Catholic Church and more and more Catholic Priests teaching Universal Salvation.
.
.
I believe Pope Francis also agree with universal salvation because he is the one who replaced Cardinal Gerhard Müller who was the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith until 02/07/2017, with Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria, Jesuit theologian who is openly teaching Universal Salvation since many years.
.
In my opinion:
If Pope Francis would not believe Universal Salvation, he would not replace Cardinal Gerhard Müller with Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria, Jesuit theologian who is openly teaching Universal Salvation since many years.
.
There is also a very good book on Universal Salvation:
Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Luis F. Ladaria SJ (Author)
.
EDITORIAL REVIEWS
“Luis F. Ladaria SJ presents a powerful statement openly advocating the doctrine of universal salvation.
His advocacy of universal salvation is openly and undeniably proclaimed.” – David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK " David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK"
.
Continue
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ABOUT THE AUTHOR
Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria, a Jesuit theologian who is the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has been a professor of theology at the Pontifical Gregorian University of Rome since 1984.
He was also a professor at the Comillas University in Madrid, and from 1992 to 1997 he was a member of the International Theological Commission.
Since 2004 he has been the general secretary of that commission. His works have greatly contributed to contemporary theological debates.
Archbishop Ladaria has been secretary, the second in command, of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith since 2008 until 02/07/2017 and from this date on Pope Francis appointed Ladaria SJ. to the position of the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
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Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Luis F. Ladaria SJ.
Quote: Jesus includes everyone and excludes no one, and all of us have received his fullness (cfr. John 1:16).
The universality of salvation and unity of Christ’s mediation mutually affirm each other [p. 144].
Yet by dying, he gave us life, that is the life of his resurrection.
Even those who do not know him are called to this divine vocation, that is, to the perfect son-ship in and through Christ.
Christians and non-Christians reach this goal by virtue of the gift of the Spirit that associates us with the unique paschal ministry of Christ even if it is through diverse paths known only to God [p. 148-149]. End quote.
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ABOUT THE AUTHOR
Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria, a Jesuit theologian who is the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has been a professor of theology at the Pontifical Gregorian University of Rome since 1984.
He was also a professor at the Comillas University in Madrid, and from 1992 to 1997 he was a member of the International Theological Commission.
Since 2004 he has been the general secretary of that commission. His works have greatly contributed to contemporary theological debates.
Archbishop Ladaria has been secretary, the second in command, of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith since 2008 until 02/07/2017 and from this date on Pope Francis appointed Ladaria SJ. to the position of the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
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Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Luis F. Ladaria SJ.
Quote: Jesus includes everyone and excludes no one, and all of us have received his fullness (cfr. John 1:16).
The universality of salvation and unity of Christ’s mediation mutually affirm each other [p. 144].
Yet by dying, he gave us life, that is the life of his resurrection.
Even those who do not know him are called to this divine vocation, that is, to the perfect son-ship in and through Christ.
Christians and non-Christians reach this goal by virtue of the gift of the Spirit that associates us with the unique paschal ministry of Christ even if it is through diverse paths known only to God [p. 148-149]. End quote.
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Latin
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Continuation
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WITHOUT GOING INTO THE FINE DETAILS
The whole creation (Eph.1:10; Col.1:20) will be restored by recreation including all Nations/Every member of the entire human race and they will have eternal life in the recreated New Earth.
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Only the Church/Bride of Christ goes to heaven, but even the Bride of Christ will come down from heaven with Christ at His Second Coming and He will rule over all Nations with His Bride.
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Christ will rule aver the nations with the Saints/Body of Christ/Church.
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Dan.7:13-14;
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
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Dan.7:21-22;
21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them,
22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.
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CCC 677 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.
God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.
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Dan.7:27;
27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High.
His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.
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Continue
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WITHOUT GOING INTO THE FINE DETAILS
The whole creation (Eph.1:10; Col.1:20) will be restored by recreation including all Nations/Every member of the entire human race and they will have eternal life in the recreated New Earth.
.
Only the Church/Bride of Christ goes to heaven, but even the Bride of Christ will come down from heaven with Christ at His Second Coming and He will rule over all Nations with His Bride.
.
Christ will rule aver the nations with the Saints/Body of Christ/Church.
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Dan.7:13-14;
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
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Dan.7:21-22;
21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them,
22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.
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CCC 677 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.
God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.
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Dan.7:27;
27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High.
His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.
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Continue
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Continuation
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Is.2:4;
He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.
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Isaiah 11:6-9;
6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling[a] together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORD
as the waters cover the sea.
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Ezekiel 36:24-27;
24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit in you and cause you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
28 Then you will live IN THE LAND I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.
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Did you notice MT, the recreated ex reprobate Jews will live IN THE LAND not in heaven, of course the same principle applies to all Nations.
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CCC 677; Even we will come down from heaven with Christ to rule over the Nations, and our hands will get “dirty” too.
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THE NEW EARTH AND THE NEW HEAVEN WILL BECOME ONE IN CHRIST
Revelation 21:2, 10, 24, 26;
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.
24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth (Bride of Christ) will bring their splendor into it. In the brackets added.
26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Predestination
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God bless you MT and God bless every readers of the CAF.
Latin
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Is.2:4;
He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.
.
.
Isaiah 11:6-9;
6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling[a] together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORD
as the waters cover the sea.
.
.
Ezekiel 36:24-27;
24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit in you and cause you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
28 Then you will live IN THE LAND I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.
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Did you notice MT, the recreated ex reprobate Jews will live IN THE LAND not in heaven, of course the same principle applies to all Nations.
.
CCC 677; Even we will come down from heaven with Christ to rule over the Nations, and our hands will get “dirty” too.
.
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THE NEW EARTH AND THE NEW HEAVEN WILL BECOME ONE IN CHRIST
Revelation 21:2, 10, 24, 26;
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.
24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth (Bride of Christ) will bring their splendor into it. In the brackets added.
26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Predestination
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God bless you MT and God bless every readers of the CAF.
Latin
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guanophore
Guest
Have you considered just saving the page address, so that this whole series of posts does not have to be reposted every time you approach this topic?
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MT1926
Guest
I’ve already been through this topic with Latin. He posts these long drawn out explainations, over and over again, when he doesn’t want to give an answer to my questions. Most of which are yes/no answers.
What I am about to say I say out of love. I fear he is suffering from scrupulousity. He seems to pick and choose from Catholic teachings because he is unable to accept that the Catholic teaches one can lose their Salvation. He wants the best of both worlds. To be a member of the Church founded by Jesus and to be OSAS.
If I was not on my iPad I would respond to all of his posts, but I am not as efficient as I am at my desktop.
I don’t think I will be able to get through to him, even though I have pointed out repeatedly that he is omitting important sentences in the quotes he makes. Which is the reason why he does not share the page address he is quoting from. All we can do is pray for him.
God Bless
What I am about to say I say out of love. I fear he is suffering from scrupulousity. He seems to pick and choose from Catholic teachings because he is unable to accept that the Catholic teaches one can lose their Salvation. He wants the best of both worlds. To be a member of the Church founded by Jesus and to be OSAS.
If I was not on my iPad I would respond to all of his posts, but I am not as efficient as I am at my desktop.
I don’t think I will be able to get through to him, even though I have pointed out repeatedly that he is omitting important sentences in the quotes he makes. Which is the reason why he does not share the page address he is quoting from. All we can do is pray for him.
God Bless
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MT1926
Guest
None of these quotes comes from the Divine Providence section of the Catholic Encyclopedia that I checked on this website.
Divine Providence
Providence, DIVINE (Lat., Providentia; Greek, provoia).—Providence in general, or foresight, is a function of the virtue of prudence, and may be defined as the...
Where are you getting your quotes from?
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guanophore
Guest
Truthfully, I must confess that I was wondering the same thing. But it is dangerous to speculate about such things on an internet forum.
I think this is a misleading phrase. The Church teaches that some aspects of salvation have occurred (in baptism) some which are in process, and some which will not occur until the end of this life. For that reason, I think it makes more sense to say that we have not yet attained salvation.
" that I may gain Christ; 9and that I may be found in him, not having my righteousness, which [would be] on the principle of law, but that which is by faith of Christ, the righteousness which [is] of God through faith, 10to know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death, 11if any way I arrive at the resurrection from among [the] dead." Phil. 3
Most problematic about the OSAS position is the sin of presumption, in which one judges onself worthy.
“Nor do I even examine myself. 4For I am conscious of nothing in myself; but I am not justified by this: but he that examines me is the Lord. 5So that do not judge anything before [the] time, until the Lord shall come, who shall also both bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and shall make manifest the counsels of hearts; and then shall each have [his] praise from God.” I Cor. 4.
With Paul, it is best for us to leave this judgment to God.
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MT1926
Guest
Totally agree with your post.
However, unless Latin is totally ignoring everything I have said he knows what I mean by this phrase. Personally, I think anyone who thinks Catholics believe we are making this claim from God’s point of view only do so to convince themselves that the Catholic Church is wrong.
Like I already told Latin, from God’s point of view no one can lose their salvation because he knows whether or not we will die in His Good Graces. Salvation is based on the whole story, not a one time event, and He already knows the whole story.
From man’s point of view we can only see our lives from point to point. We can have a personal assurance of salvation that we are on the path and persevering in out faith. However, we don’t know the end of the story we have no way of knowing whether or not we will die in God’s good graces. So from this point to point, point of view we can lose our salvation.
An example. I went to confession last Wednesday. I walked out of that Church knowing that if someone ran me off a 300 foot bridge, on the way home, I knew with personal assurance that I had my salvation. Now if I just bounced off the guard rail and didn’t go over…All the while call the guy driving away every name in the book and wishing upon him the worst curses of this world. Well…not so sure anymore, I’m pretty sure I just lost it. Back to the box
AMEN!
God Bless
T
tgGodsway
Guest
Gorgias, … I DID say William Tyndale gave us the scriptures in English for the first time ever, but the “US” in my statement was supposed to be the British people of his day in the 1500’s. This was not the best way to say it. I was NOT trying to say that William Tyndale translated the very first English translation ever in all the world. Why not? It wasn’t my point. MT and others used my poorly written statement to do what he does best, and that is to portray me in a bad light.
History tells us that the British people of William’s day did not have a translation in their language, (in general.) That is a historical fact. Why didn’t they? because it was against the laws of England. Secondly, it would take a mass printing (by the English government) in order for the entire population to get a bible. This was all against the law.
You mentioned that there was no demand for any questionable bibles in their day, but it wasn’t about demand. It was about persecution. As mentioned, it was absolutely against the law of England (in the 1500’s) to own or even read an English translation of the bible period. Even if you managed to get your hands on one you wouldn’t dare bring it into the public lest you be reprimanded by the CC.
It is also a historical fact that if you were caught saying the Lord’s prayer in English, you would be punished, as in the case of those in Coventry England in 1519 where children were taught the Lord’s prayer in English. When the CC found out what was going on they came and burned at the stake all the fathers of those children. These are documented historical facts. I wonder if the CC ever repented of these grievous sins.
History tells us that the British people of William’s day did not have a translation in their language, (in general.) That is a historical fact. Why didn’t they? because it was against the laws of England. Secondly, it would take a mass printing (by the English government) in order for the entire population to get a bible. This was all against the law.
You mentioned that there was no demand for any questionable bibles in their day, but it wasn’t about demand. It was about persecution. As mentioned, it was absolutely against the law of England (in the 1500’s) to own or even read an English translation of the bible period. Even if you managed to get your hands on one you wouldn’t dare bring it into the public lest you be reprimanded by the CC.
It is also a historical fact that if you were caught saying the Lord’s prayer in English, you would be punished, as in the case of those in Coventry England in 1519 where children were taught the Lord’s prayer in English. When the CC found out what was going on they came and burned at the stake all the fathers of those children. These are documented historical facts. I wonder if the CC ever repented of these grievous sins.
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