Questions about when people get "saved"

[guanophore]

But because their dogma was already set in stone, and the infallibility of the Church had already been preached to many generations, how could those leaders turn on a dime and consider Luther’s logic.

It sounds like you don’t know the difference between a dogma and a doctrine.

Yes, the infallibility of the Church was preached first by Christ, and this gift has persisted through all the generations.

You are also right that the Church NEVER turns on a dime. This used to frustrate me too, until I realized that this is what protects her against modernism.

You don’t seem to know much about the Reformation history either, tgG. You don’t seem to realize that the Church did respond to Luther’s logic (or lack thereof). By that time, it was too late. The rebellion was in full swing, and nothing was going to stop it.

The prophet Isaiah spoke God’s word to say, “Come let us reason together…” But in Luther’s case, there was no reasoning, just a demand to recant.

Really, tgG, try not to expose yourself so much to looking uneducated. You sound like someone who has never even watched the movie! Have you ever actually read any of Luther’s writings? May I suggest Against the Robbing and Murdering Hordes of Peasants?

Perhaps you can choose some parts of this work, or any other of his works, that demonstrate the fruit of the Holy Spirit?

 

[guanophore]

Really?.. please tell me how that works. So if Paul declares that all people born into the world who originated from Adam, are sinners, and then the C Church comes along centuries later in a papal decree or a council decree saying, Mary, by a special grace or miracle never sinned in the course of her life, and was born sinless, how is that not adding to, or altering what already is?

She was saved before she fell into sin. She was preserved spotless by the application of her son’s sacrifice.

 

[guanophore]

No… I’m sure that I could gather up 10 or so Catholics who all have various opinions about certain scriptures, yet because they have no choice but to submit to what has been decided for them, they yield. People in general think so differently from each other by design.

I agree! It is in our nature to think for ourselves. God made us this way. But to say that Catholics don’t have a choice is absurd. Everyone gets up every day and has a fresh day of choices to make. Catholics don’t need to follow Jesus and daily take up their cross any more than you do.We have the advantage that we are protected by the gift of infallibility when we are in unity with the Church, and that helps Catholics who might otherwise be on the fence, or tempted to stray from His One Body.

But to separate one group who hears from God, from another group who it is said, cannot hear from God, and therefore needs the first group, is a huge blunder in so many Churches.

It is a huge blunder, one the CC does not make. The CC has the fullness of Truth, but recognizes that the HS works through and within other ecclesial communities as well.

1st. John 2:27 tells us that the “anointing will teach us all things.” There was no selective partisan mentality in John’s statement.

John is using “us” to refer to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Those who depart from it do not have the confidence of this promise. The gift of infallibility can only be enjoyed by those who remain in unity with His One Body, the Church. Ignatius, who was a disciple of John, bears this out in his writings.

The holy Spirit can and does impart spiritual insight to the least likely person who is hungry for God’s word, and He usually does it that way. But the qualifying perfume God wants to smell, is the perfume of humility and the love of God.

Yes, I agree. And that humility will always lead to unity.

 

[MT1926]

You say the Church collected the writings and canonized them. Okay I can accept that, even though the canonization process was over a span of time. But on what bases was the canonization process infallible? …

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. What you say here is the point I am trying to show you. We both agree that the early Church collected the writings and canonized them. The point you are missing is if the early Church wasn’t infallible then we have no way of knowing if they chose the correct books. How can a fallible Church canonize the Word of God?

That’s my point. If you are correct that the early Church was not infallible then it all falls apart. We have no way of knowing if we were given the truth or not. If Jesus didn’t leave us a visible shepherd, to speak for Him, than there is no way we can know if the Bible is the inspired Word of God or an elaborate scam.

 

[guanophore]

If that were totally true, we would not have received any letters from them. Those letters were all about contending for the faith. They were all about persevering in the truth. Why? because the truth was under attack.

Of course! The Truth is always under attack. We must always contend for the faith. But there is One Faith. All those who adhere to the One Faith will be in unity. The Truth is not hindered by those who choose to depart from it.

ut I think we know very little about that first collection of writings. The fight over these books went clear into the 4th. century if my memory serves me. Obviously there was debate and still

Yes, there was debate until 382, and the issue was settled until Luther decided that the Church’s decision on the canon did not suit his own theology, so he wanted certain books extracted to support his own position. But one of the consistent Sacred Traditions that is still received today by all Christians is the New Testament Canon.

We debate how they should be interpreted and how not.

Yes, but that is a separate issue. The doctrine of Sola Scriptura has led everyone to believe that they can, and should, interpret the scriptures according to how they best make sense to themselves. What has happened is that everyone has become their own Pope.

But all of these things are not beyond the holy Spirit’s guidance for a people who want to know Him.

Definitely not. He is a rewarder of all who diligently seek Him:+1:.

 

[tgGodsway]

Honestly when you belt out these blatant misconceptions it just makes it look like you are 1) ignorant of the facts and 2) deeply and hatefully prejudiced about Catholicism.

There you go again guanophore, making pronouncements over the condition of my heart simply because you do not agree. It is a poor tactic.

No, … If there is such respect as you say, then when I bring up someone like William Tyndale, a scholarly bible translator who was well versed in four languages and probably one of the best Hebrew and Greek scholars of his day. Who also lived a godly life sacrificing it at the altar of the CC’s persecution with fire, the C response from this site was as if I was talking about a fool.

When I bring up Luther, who carried a Dr. of divinity in his day, who had his convictions over scripture, and willing to risk his life over those convictions, and who the Cardinals couldn’t out-reason … the response was the same, a man who lost his mind. A heretic.

So, when you belt out these quick responses guanophore please be considerate.

 

[mcq72]

perfect example of iron sharpening iron…if only Nicodemus had such replies, to help fend off any thought of introspection of the reality of a new birth…isn’t it presumptuous to say because you’re a Catholic (or baptist etc) you are born again…I mean the rabbis and Pharisees all thought themselves to be sons of Abraham, and were practitioners of the one true faith of the time.

 

[Latin]

God bless you CajunJoy and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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I read all of your four posts and meditated on them.
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I STILL HAVE TWO QUESTIONS
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FIRST QUESTION:
When is the exact point when a real child/elect of God get saved?
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SECOND QUESTION:
Is it a possibility that a child/elect of God can lose his/her salvation at their Judgment?
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Thank you for your answers in advance.
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Of course I welcome anyone’s answer as well.
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God bless you CajunJoy and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[RedFan]

If one is “already saved,” what’s to work out with fear and trembling?

 

[guanophore]

There you go again guanophore, making pronouncements over the condition of my heart simply because you do not agree.

Not at all. Just commenting on how your posts come across.

I have no way of knowing your heart. All I can go on is what you have written. I am saying that what you have written indicates that you are 1) ignorant of the facts or 2) deeply and predjudically hateful against Catholicism.

If there is such respect as you say, then when I bring up someone like William Tyndale, a scholarly bible translator who was well versed in four languages and probably one of the best Hebrew and Greek scholars of his day. Who also lived a godly life sacrificing it at the altar of the CC’s persecution with fire

Try not to throw out the baby with the bathwater, tgG. I have great respect for Wm. Tyndale, his work, and his sacrifice. I am sure that God does as well. It is true that there are many Catholics that may not value his sacrifice, but try not to paint us all with the same brush, ok?

When I bring up Luther, who carried a Dr. of divinity in his day, who had his convictions over scripture, and willing to risk his life over those convictions, and who the Cardinals couldn’t out-reason … the response was the same, a man who lost his mind. A heretic.

I think you have a very biased idea about Luther, tgG. He was trained in the CC, where he earned his doctorate, and was not by any means an intellectual progeny of his day… He was not a paragon of virtue, either, if you read his writings. The Cardinals were not making any effort to “out reason” him, as his assertions were not about reason, they were about authority. I do think that Luther has a very loose hold on his mind, and he was a heretic, but he also had a lot of balls. He asserted his own private interpretation consistently over and above what the Church taught.

Some of his complaints had merit, as was akowledged by the Church in the Counter Reformation.

So, when you belt out these quick responses guanophore please be considerate.

If you can demonstrate to me that you have read your Luther, as I have, then we will have a basis for discussion.

Have you ever read the JDDJ?

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p..._31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

 

[JamalChristophr]

@(name removed by moderator)

Teresa of Avila said something similar in her writings. She spoke of this life as a perilous journey. I do wish I had a photographic memory, I would give you chapter and verse.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, Phillipians 2:12

Yet I am amazed at the skill with which educated protestants find ways to reinterpret this verse and not take it at face value.

 

[tgGodsway]

think you have a very biased idea about Luther, tgG. He was trained in the CC, where he earned his doctorate, and was not by any means an intellectual progeny of his day… He was not a paragon of virtue, either, if you read his writings.

No. I hear you. I am not. I would argue that today, Luther’s understanding was only at an infancy stage of development. Today’s reformed view surpasses that of Luther. But without him I am not sure reform would have come. And now that reform has drifted back in many ways.

 

[tgGodsway]

a non-CC response from the lips of our Savior Himself. Jesus said, “whosoever believes in the Son, has eternal life.” John 3:15. In the moment you come to believe that Jesus is the Christ=Messiah=God in Flesh= … in that moment you enter eternal life. Your body will die one day, but the YOU already belong to Him by the Spirit of God who has sealed you forever. Take comfort in His words.

 

[tgGodsway]

If you are trying to love and serve Christ in order to be eternally saved, you have moved passed the free Gift of eternal life, over to the call of discipleship. No worries even misinformed protestants get tangled up with what they find in scripture so that the simple call to eternal life is lost or eclipsed by the weight of Christian duty.

 

[Latin]

God bless you CajunJoy and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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For us as God’s children/elect our Salvation/Eternal Life is God’s UNDESERVED gift, received at the moment of our Initial Justification, and it is IRREVOCABLE, we can NEVER lose it.
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To love and serve Christ as well by taking up our cross and following Him, they are the fruits of our salvation, not the cause of our Salvation.
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Someone may know (IT IS POSSIBLE) he has God’s gift of salvation or someone doesn’t know it is a DIFFERENT ISSUE.
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RIGHTEOUSNESS AND MERIT by James Akin
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Protestants who say … Catholics believe we must do good works in order to become justified — a position which was explicitly condemned at Trent, which taught “nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification” (Decree on Justification 8).
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Catholic theology teaches we do not do good works in order to be justified, but that we are justified in order to do good works, as Paul says: “[W]e are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (Ephesians 2:10 ).
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Justification is the cause, not the consequence, of good works.
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However, these Protestants are still confused about the fact that Catholics do not teach we are made only partially righteous in justification.
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The Church teaches that we are made totally righteous — we receive 100% pure righteousness — in justification.
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Thus Trent declares:
“n those who are born again God hates nothing, because there is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism unto death . . . but, putting off the old man and putting on the new one who is created according to God, are made innocent, immaculate, pure, guiltless and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, joint heirs with Christ; so that there is nothing whatever to hinder their entrance into heaven” (Decree on Original Sin 5).

You don’t have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven.

There is no magic level of works one needs to achieve in order to go to heaven.

One is saved the moment one is initially justified. End quote.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/RIGHTEOU.HTM
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Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
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ANNEX TO THE OFFICIAL COMMON STATEMENT
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C. Justification takes place by grace alone (JD 15 and 16), by faith alone, the person is justified „apart from works“ (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25).
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D. Certainly, "whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it (JD 25).
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3. The doctrine of justification is measure or touchstone for the Christian faith. No teaching may contradict this criterion. In this sense, the doctrine of justification is an "indispensable criterion which constantly serves to orient all the teaching and practice of our churches to Christ“ (JD l8).

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-annex_en.html
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God bless you CajunJoy and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[MonteRCMS]

I love St. Theresa of Avila, but she died very young.

 

[JamalChristophr]

That’s Therese of Lissieux you are thinking of.

 

[MonteRCMS]

Correct, you are.

 

[guanophore]

a non-CC response from the lips of our Savior Himself. Jesus said, “whosoever believes in the Son, has eternal life.” John 3:15. In the moment you come to believe that Jesus is the Christ=Messiah=God in Flesh= … in that moment you enter eternal life. Your body will die one day, but the YOU already belong to Him by the Spirit of God who has sealed you forever. Take comfort in His words.

I think you are forgetting, tgG, the NT is entirely Catholic. There is nothing written there that is not Catholic! When Jesus talks about believing in Him, he is talking about a faith that works, a faith that follows His commandments, a faith that hopes, working out salvation through this vale of tears and eventually uniting with our imperishable heavenly inheritance. There are some that say the prayer to be 'saved" who then are like plants that wither when the sun gets hot. This kind of faith is not a saving faith. But I do agree with you, Baptism does seal us forever, and we can take comfort in His precious promises as we work out our salvation.

If you are trying to love and serve Christ in order to be eternally saved, you have moved passed the free Gift of eternal life, over to the call of discipleship. No worries even misinformed protestants get tangled up with what they find in scripture so that the simple call to eternal life is lost or eclipsed by the weight of Christian duty.

I know it seems this way to you, because you have been steeped in anti-Catholic rhetoric. You might have a better understanding of the Catholic position if you read the JDDJ.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p..._31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

We cannot earn the free gift of salvation. It is by grace, through faith, not of human works (or works of the Law). Loving and serving Christ, obeying His commandments, is, as you say discipleship. We enter into eternal life at baptism, but just like entering into a river, we can also get out of the River of Life and walk away from it into a desert, where our faith can dry up and blow away.