Questions about when people get "saved"

[MT1926]

I’m coming into this post not too sure what the point is here. But I think I get it. If I’m off the mark MT, I’m sure you will let me know.

The earnest of our inheritance is not so much that we must complete the work as you think.

Yep off the mark. I never once mentioned works or something we must do. I’m not sure why you are arguing against works here?

If you go back and reread my conversation with @lanman87 he accused me of citing a Catholic Bible and claimed …

It is interesting to me that the only version that uses the term “first installment” is the RSV Catholic Edition. All the other version use words like guarantee or pledge. Even the NIV which calls it a deposit also says it guarantees what is to come.

I was just pointing out that the Catholic Bible isn’t the “ONLY version”. Many Bibles don’t claim this verse tells us we have a guarantee, the way he is defining it. That’s the only point I was making.

I’m not going to respond to the rest of what you say to discredit works, because that is not at issue with this verse.

I totally agree we are saved by the free gift of God’s Grace, period. The only point I was making was that the Holy Spirit is not a 100% guarantee of salvation in this verse, which is what is being presented here. The Holy Spirit is the initial installment of Grace, given by God. That’s it nothing else can be assumed from this verse.

Don’t get me wrong here, I’m not saying the Holy Spirit can’t save us. Sure for some this initial installment (partial payment) of Grace will be all they will need to be saved. What I am saying is nowhere in this verse is it claiming that the initial installment (partial payment) is all that is needed to persevere to the end. Some of us will need more Grace than others.

I think that is fairly evident from society.

God Bless

 

[tgGodsway]

MT I think I have apologized to you more than anyone else on this site. And i must do it again. I am focused on many things mostly not related to this site. Finding an example of a failing Christian is difficult if you cannot see salvation as being absolutely free. Any believer who has come to hate God is no doubt lost his faith. Therefore by definition he is no longer a believer but a doubter. The master of deception had penetrated his shield of faith and yanked it to the ground. Is such a person found in scripture and more to your point, found in heaven? I will give a better answer between tonight and sometime tomorrow. I am on my phone now. But a pre-reading of 2nd. Tim 2 may help.

 

[guanophore]

But that is not how I read it.

St. Paul says we would RATHER or WILLING or HOPING to be absent of the body and present with the Lord.

St. Paul tells us it is something we hope for, it is not something that automatically occurs.

Sorry it makes no sense to me that God would force us to be with Him.

God Bless

I think @tgGodsway has been wrapped up in the “golden chain of salvation”. It is unlikely that we will be able to untangle him from it here.

 

[tgGodsway]

The Holy Spirit is the initial installment of Grace, given by God. That’s it nothing else can be assumed from this verse

I can except your wording here, but there is something not being discussed in this deposit. This deposit brings us to justification by faith apart from works. This declaration is crucial to understanding the whole of the deposit.

What I am saying is nowhere in this verse is it claiming that the initial installment (partial payment) is all that is needed to persevere to the end. Some of us will need more Grace than others.

The idea of preserving to the end is taken out of its context. The idea is lifted from two different passages: Mt. 10:22; 24:13. In both cases the context is talking about a very specific time during the seven year tribulation period. The enduring unto the end is referring to the persecution by the anti-Christ against a remnant Church in the tribulation period before God’s wrath is poured out. By this time, most of the Church has fallen away as promised.

The salvation in this context is a literal and physical one. "He who endures (this persecution) unto the end (of the tribulation) will be saved=delivered from it. Those who experience this last-day event, you must know, were already justified freely by grace, by the appropriation of Christ finished work on the cross.

Enduring in faith says nothing about God’s declaration of justification pronounced upon your life when you first believed the message of the gospel. You then became born again with the promised deposit of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. All of this was a spiritual salvation.

 

[MT1926]

I can except your wording here, but there is something not being discussed in this deposit. This deposit brings us to justification by faith apart from works.

I’m not sure why you keep bringing this discussion back to works? I don’t think I ever claimed we can save ourselves apart from God’s grace.

In fact I believe so much that we are saved by God’s free gift of grace, that for this reason alone, I find it hard to understand how someone can teach that we can ONLY be "born again based on our ability to hear and understand and accept the word of God."

Not saying this isn’t important but seems to me us having to hear and understand before we can be born again means we have to DO a work before this transformation occurs.

The idea of preserving to the end is taken out of its context. The idea is lifted from two different passages: Mt. 10:22; 24:13. In both cases the context is talking about a very specific time during the seven year tribulation period.

I’m not familiar with this. Maybe you can expand on why you believe this is speaking of a seven year tribulation?

When I read the verse in the context of the Chapter is sure seems like Jesus is addressing the 12 being persecuted by non-Believers. I’m not sure where you are seeing the anti-Christ here?

Chapter 10 starts with Jesus calling the 12. It goes on to name the 12. Verse five tells us he sent the 12. The rest of the chapter seems to be addressing and speaking about the 12 going out to bring Jesus to the world. Seems Jesus is saying whoever endures in Jesus name to the end will be saved. Not seeing any mention of the anti-Christ here.

Maybe you can explain how the anti-Christ and a seven year tribulation is the context here.

Those who experience this last-day event,

So was Jesus NOT addressing His disciples here? I always understood the event Jesus was referencing to be the destruction of the Temple?

 

[tgGodsway]

MT (on my phone now) it is common knowledge that Matthew 24 is a synopsis of the entire Book of Revelation. The beginning of the chapter the disciples ask a pivotal question of when will these things be and a sign of your coming at the End of the Age.? Their questions place Jesus answer in a very specific context. Before I go any further, do you know anything about the seven year tribulation?

 

[tgGodsway]

MT. I recommend the book, The Rapture question Answered., By Robert Van Kampen. He is a renown theologian on eschatology.

 

[tgGodsway]

Yes the destruction of the temple and more.

 

[tgGodsway]

MT. We know that the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, 2nd Corinthians 4:4. Any man who at one time received Jesus Christ as Savior then turned on a dime to hate him, did so by Satan’s deception. But when he stands before his savior he will stand there without any bias and he will see God in his true reality. He will gnash his teeth, just like those who stoned Steven. They gnashed their teeth because they were angry at Steven for telling them the truth. But for a justified sinner, his jaw will drop at the presence of the Lord. He, for the first time ever, will realize he was a vessel Of Dishonor in the house of God. God will deny him any reward because this man failed to invest. Yet God’s benevolent heart, sealed him for just this very day. O’ how rich and merciful is our God, choosing not to give us what we all deserve. It makes me appreciate Him all the more.

 

[MT1926]

MT (on my phone now) it is common knowledge that Matthew 24 is a synopsis of the entire Book of Revelation. The beginning of the chapter the disciples ask a pivotal question of when will these things be and a sign of your coming at the End of the Age.? Their questions place Jesus answer in a very specific context. Before I go any further, do you know anything about the seven year tribulation?

OK? But I’m referencing Matthew 10.

Why would I need Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation to understand what Jesus is saying in Matthew 10? It sure seems if you attempt to do that you totally go against the immediate context of Matthew 10.

As for the seven year tribulation, all I know is there is heated disagreement on the Rapture. Personally, I don’t see why we would need to understand the end times before we can understand salvation. Seems like it would be putting the cart before the horse.

Can’t see how any of this would be necessary to understand Matthew 10.

 

[ltwin]

Please tell me I am not crazy.

I just disagree. Bodily death gets rid of all that is still sinful. There is now no condemnation for those who die in Christ (who died on the Cross as an atonement for sin), and I frankly find any thought that we must bear punishment for our sins (which have already been pardoned and we have already been cleansed of by the blood of Jesus) to be abhorrent.

Romans 8 is such a wonderful explanation of God’s love and life in the Spirit. It begins with “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,” and goes on to explain:

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Paul finishes Romans 8 with his famous declaration that nothing can separate us from the love of God:

33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Our bodies are dead to sin, but we live by the Spirit who dwells in us. When we die physically, our sin is purged. All who die in Christ are in his presence, awaiting the resurrection of the body. If God has justified us, what more is left to condemn in us and purge from us in purgatory?

 

[guanophore]

I’m not sure why you keep bringing this discussion back to works? I don’t think I ever claimed we can save ourselves apart from God’s grace.

@tgGodsway is in denial that the NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. He clings to a mistaken notion that the CC denies Eph. 2:8-9

He has been steeped in so much anti-Catholic theology that he has come to believe that Catholics are taught to save themselves by their own works.

 

[MT1926]

I frankly find any thought that we must bear punishment for our sins (which have already been pardoned and we have already been cleansed of by the blood of Jesus) to be abhorrent.

You left me curious why you find this abhorrent?

Let me try to explain why your statement confused me.

I’m guessing you would agree that after we are “born again” we are cleansed of original sin. Yet everyone suffers the same punishment, in this life, for the sin of Adam whether born again or not.

Also, I’m guessing you would agree that if we confess our sins Christ will, at that very moment, pardon and cleanse us from those sins. Yet many of us still bear further punishment in this life even after being cleansed of the sin.

I’m hoping you follow where I’m going with this. Basically, what confused me is why is it perfectly just for God to allow these punishments while we are alive (even when we are born again and confess) but all of the sudden becomes unjust and abhorrent if these same punishments occur to purge us after we die?

Our bodies are dead to sin, but we live by the Spirit who dwells in us. When we die physically, our sin is purged. All who die in Christ are in his presence, awaiting the resurrection of the body. If God has justified us, what more is left to condemn in us and purge from us in purgatory?

Further confusion here. I am 99% sure that you don’t believe in OSAS, so how is this statement not OSAS? Isn’t sin being automatically purged at death (for the born again), regardless of whether you repented or not, the bases for the OSAS belief and the reason one can not lose their salvation?

Thanks,

God Bless

 

[ltwin]

I’m guessing you would agree that after we are “born again” we are cleansed of original sin. Yet everyone suffers the same punishment, in this life, for the sin of Adam whether born again or not.

Also, I’m guessing you would agree that if we confess our sins Christ will, at that very moment, pardon and cleanse us from those sins.

Yes, repentance and forgiveness of sins accompanies the new birth, in which Christ justifies and regenerates us.

Yet many of us still bear further punishment in this life even after being cleansed of the sin.

We bear the temporal consequences of our sins.

I’m hoping you follow where I’m going with this. Basically, what confused me is why is it perfectly just for God to allow these punishments while we are alive (even when we are born again and confess) but all of the sudden becomes unjust and abhorrent if these same punishments occur to purge us after we die?

Scripture teaches that when we confess and repent of our sins, the blood of Christ cleanses us. There is nothing left to punish or cleanse after death because for those who die in Christ their sin was put to death on the Cross. God “remembers them no more” as the Bible puts it.

Further confusion here. I am 99% sure that you don’t believe in OSAS, so how is this statement not OSAS? Isn’t sin being automatically purged at death (for the born again), regardless of whether you repented or not, the bases for the OSAS belief and the reason one can not lose their salvation?

If we die having truly put our faith in Christ and repented of our sins, then our sins are forgiven. This is not OSAS. OSAS says you ask God to forgive you once in your life and you’re guaranteed salvation forever. We’re talking about people who have actually been justified, regenerated, adopted and sanctified.

 

[Vonsalza]

We bear the temporal consequences of our sins.

Wow. Not a whole lot of evangelicals “get” this. I’m impressed.

Are you aware of the relationship between this concept and purgatory?

 

[lanman87]

Further confusion here. I am 99% sure that you don’t believe in OSAS, so how is this statement not OSAS? Isn’t sin being automatically purged at death (for the born again), regardless of whether you repented or not, the bases for the OSAS belief and the reason one can not lose their salvation?

From the Wesleyan/Methodist/Pentecostal perspective, as long as we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit our sins are continually being forgiven by the continued intercession of Christ on our account… We are indwelled with the Holy Spirit as long as we have faith and live the life of faith. The only way to lose the indwelling Holy Spirit is to totally renounce faith in Christ or to willfully stay in sin without thought or grief over your sin, which shows you have given up your faith in Christ. It is the presence of the Holy Spirit that guarantees our adoption, forgiveness, and inheritance in Christ. To lose salvation is to have the Holy Spirit withdrawn from the heart of an individual.

The difference between that and the OSAS/Security of the Believer/Perseverance of the Saints perspective is that if someone has truly been converted and born again then they can’t be unborn again. The Holy Spirit will indwell them no matter what. However, if someone renounces their faith or lives in sin without remorse/repentance then that shows they were never truly born again. They may have had intellectual belief or knowledge about how Christians are supposed to live, but they never were made new creations by the Holy Spirit. If they had been made new creations then they would persevere till the end. Not by there own doing but by the will of Christ who lives in them.

 

[guanophore]

From the Wesleyan/Methodist/Pentecostal perspective

It is much closer to a Catholic view than most evangelical perspectives.

 

[ltwin]

From the Wesleyan/Methodist/Pentecostal perspective, as long as we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit our sins are continually being forgiven by the continued intercession of Christ on our account… We are indwelled with the Holy Spirit as long as we have faith and live the life of faith.

I would just clarify that repentance is continual. “Living the life of faith” means living a life of continual repentance.

The only way to lose the indwelling Holy Spirit is to totally renounce faith in Christ or to willfully stay in sin without thought or grief over your sin, which shows you have given up your faith in Christ. It is the presence of the Holy Spirit that guarantees our adoption, forgiveness, and inheritance in Christ. To lose salvation is to have the Holy Spirit withdrawn from the heart of an individual.

It’s not just that we must think and grieve over our sins, we must hate sin and mortify the flesh through denying the self and rejecting the sin. When we continue to live in sin, we grieve the Holy Spirit and nullify the work of God in our lives (“For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,” Hebrews 10:26).

 

[ltwin]

Wow. Not a whole lot of evangelicals “get” this. I’m impressed.

I think we’re well aware that if you go around lying, stealing, murdering, etc. you will reap what you sow in “real life”. Where some so called evangelicals get tripped up is imagining that God is somehow indifferent to the sins you commit once you say a “sinner’s prayer” and that nothing can keep you from going to heaven. It’s a very selfish, carnal and immature theology.

Are you aware of the relationship between this concept and purgatory?

I’m aware of the development as it relates to the Protestant Reformation and the Reformer’s objection to purgatory, but not in any detail.

 

[tgGodsway]

Why would I need Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation to understand what Jesus is saying in Matthew 10?

I am not trying to deny what is in Matthew 10. But this chapter is a depiction of when Jesus sent out his disciples. In the narrative He begins to tell them what to do when they go out to preach. But in verse 15 He transitions His comments to a future date, but it is very subtle. From verse 15 through 23 everything He said was futuristic as demonstrated by his last words there. “… you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man COMES.”
These very same words are better developed in Matthew chapter 24 where, again, He is now answering specific questions about the last days and the coming of the Lord.

It is in that context we interpret what it means when He said, “He who endures to the end shall be saved.” If you are trying to use this passage to mean, he who endures to the end shall be saved=eternally= in heaven, this would not be the passage to prove it. Without getting too much into the mechanics of it,(because I have to jump in my car right now) the “he” in the context are people who already possess eternal life. These are not unsaved people who just need to endure to the end. The salvation= deliverance, they need is a physical one because the context places them in the middle of the tribulation period where the anti-Christ is persecuting God’s remnant Church before the rapture has taken place. What Mt. 24 is talking about is the actual rapture. He who endures the persecution of the anti-Christ, until the end of this period right before God’s judgment is released, shall be delivered from it.

Got to go.