Questions about when people get "saved"

[tgGodsway]

So, everyone who says “Jesus is Lord and my savior” is saved?

Of course not!.. I agree with you that we are limited in what we know. In the Lord’s house there are vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor but the Lord knows those who are His.

But here’s what I’ve learned, today nobody practices 1st. John 4:2. I think we can spare a lot of time if we would just test the spirits to see whether they are of God.

Secondly, according to Jesus, in the LORD LORD passage, Jesus in the end says, “I never knew you,” depart from me…" Mt. 7:23.

What were these people bragging about?.. their good works… yet they did not see Jesus as God come in fresh just like the rich young ruler.

So the scenario you are using here doesn’t match the passage. You are talking about worldly, sinful, degenerate people who still claim Christ. These were those who had promoted right living. They cast out demons, they even prophesied and did “many might works.” but without Christ.

 

[ltwin]

Secondly, according to Jesus, in the LORD LORD passage, Jesus in the end says, “I never knew you,” depart from me…" Mt. 7:23.

What were these people bragging about?.. their good works… yet they did not see Jesus as God come in fresh just like the rich young ruler.

So the scenario you are using here doesn’t match the passage. You are talking about worldly, sinful, degenerate people who still claim Christ. These were those who had promoted right living. They cast out demons, they even prophesied and did “many might works.” but without Christ.

All I read from you is condemnation of those who engage in works righteousness (which I am against too), and you rightly point out that those people don’t really know the Lord. How is someone who says they know the Lord but does evil any better than someone who seeks righteousness through their works? Matthew 25:

32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[f] you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Yes, the sheep were not saved because of their good works, but the point is God’s people will do good works.

 

[tgGodsway]

How is someone who says they know the Lord but does evil any better than someone who seeks righteousness through their works? Matthew 25:

Well, firstly those who says they know the Lord, but do evil would include everyone in Christ to various degrees. All sin is evil. I do not know a Christian who does not sin. Paul said that “evil” was present with him, (Ro.7:21) As a matter of fact John said "If we say we are without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us, yet Christ in us never sins.
To address your concerns about doing righteousness.

All I read from you is condemnation of those who engage in works righteousness

It is not about WHAT we do. it’s about WHY we do it.
If I do righteousness simply because I love Christ, then God gets the glory. If I do righteousness so that in some way, I “seal up” or finish Christ’ work in me, that is different story. We are called to live righteously and we should fight for it in every way. I am not anti-righteousness. I am totally pro-living right. But again, WHY should I?

 

[ltwin]

It is not about WHAT we do. it’s about WHY we do it.

I’ve already said that. You’re not answering my question. If I say that I know the Lord but continue to sin, do I really know the Lord?

 

[tgGodsway]

Yes, the sheep were not saved because of their good works, but the point is God’s people will do good works.

Again, you are saying more than this passage says, or maybe your interpretation is questionable. I’m not trying to be rude. I know how talking theology on line makes everybody sound rude. But that is not my intention here with you and also with the Catholics. They think I am this mean spirited anti-Catholic. I am not.

Notice two things in the narrative: Firstly, Jesus made a contrast here between the RIGHTEOUS and the CURSED. Secondly, He told them what was at stake in His evaluation of them: An Inheritance was given to the righteous. He then amplifies all that the righteous did to EARN their inheritance. In Jewish custom an inheritance is always meritorious with the exception of eternal life itself. So, the justified ones, that is (those who’ve been imputed with the righteousness of Christ freely as a gift) will inherit, or take up ownership, of the kingdom of God. hallelujah!

Now the CURSED ones are treated the same way. The only difference is that Christ did not use the word inherit in regards to them, though he could have in the sense that they were going to inherit the fury and damnation of hell itself. But He did not say it that way. He then amplifies all that they DID NOT DO… and at the end commands them to their destiny in hell.

The usual knee-jerk to this passage is in the wanting to connect the works with the reason why they go where they go. But we must make our interpretation based on the SUM of God’s word, including the fact that the just, were made just by the works of Christ on the cross and not because they visited Christ in prison. In other words, they were declared righteous before Christ judged them here. And the curses ones were born into the family of curses and were walking dead men from the start. It is possible that their works will play a part in what degree of hell’s fury they will receive, just as in the opposite case of the righteous.

As to your comment about how God’s people do good works. Some do, and some don’t. Remember the Christian represented by wood, hey and straw. He did NO good works for Christ, yet the fact that He’s standing at the judgment seat is telling.

 

[tgGodsway]

No you do not know the Lord. You may believe in the Lord, but knowing him, is a closer relationship than just believing in Him. You come from a Pentecostal background where the manifest presence of God is the norm, especially if you’ve been baptized in the Holy Spirit. Therefore coming to “know” Christ intimately is common ground for you.

But I can gather up many scriptures that talk about simply believing in Christ for salvation alone. My goodness the gospel of John has at least 5 or 6 references to this. Yet knowing Him, through an experience in the Spirit is altogether different. I always tell people if you believe in Him, you are more incline to know Him, and if you know Him, you are more incline to love Him, and if you love Him, you are more incline to obey Him.

 

[ltwin]

No you do not know the Lord. You may believe in the Lord, but knowing him, is a closer relationship than just believing in Him. You come from a Pentecostal background where the manifest presence of God is the norm, especially if you’ve been baptized in the Holy Spirit. Therefore coming to “know” Christ intimately is common ground for you.

The baptism in the Holy Spirit is about empowerment for service, not about knowing God or experience the presence of the Spirit in one’s life. All Christians should love God and obey God.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

From the CCC

2178 This practice of the Christian assembly dates from the beginnings of the apostolic age. The Letter to the Hebrews reminds the faithful “not to neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some, but to encourage one another.”

Tradition preserves the memory of an ever-timely exhortation: Come to Church early, approach the Lord, and confess your sins, repent in prayer. . . . Be present at the sacred and divine liturgy, conclude its prayer and do not leave before the dismissal. . . . We have often said: “This day is given to you for prayer and rest. This is the day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it.”

AMEN, what’s your point?

That the “Day” spoken of is Sunday.
Mt19260:

I agree with you, never said you were wrong.

But it seems to me that your standing firm is your way of saying I am wrong.

I agree with CCC 2178, however it does not say Sunday worship is the only truth taught in Hebrews 10.

25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

From Dr. Scott Hahn’s commentary in the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible.

10:25 - meet together: As a liturgical assembly. Exclusively private worship apart form the family of faith is discouraged (CCC 2178).

Which is exactly what you are saying. He even references the Catechism.

Now you know why I take the position I do

Mt1926:

However, he goes on to say…

the Day: The Day of Judgement. (Which would be our final judgment)

He doesn’t stop there he continues to pull more meaning out of this verse…

In its original context, this may have particular reference to the approaching judgement of Israel (the destruction of the Temple) and the passing away of the Old Covenant with its sanctuary and priesthood.

So it seems to me that the Day can be Sunday, it can also be the Day of our final Judgement

you know when that Day (of judgement ) is? Does any scripture give the day? All we know is, that Day (judgement Day) is coming… it might be a billion or billions of years from now. We don’t know.

point being,
The day spoken of in Heb 10:25 is a knowable day that is already being celebrated and violated by some who have the habit of NOT showing up… One can’t warn people to show up for a future day (judgement day) whose time is unknowable, nor can one violate not showing up for a day in the past (judgement day) that hasn’t happened yet. . Is Heb 10:25 warning a particular group NOT to miss judgement day as is the habit of some of them? Based on the consequence already mentioned, for those who deliberately miss the day already being celebrated, (Sunday, the Lord’s Day), we see it’s not a suggestion to meet on Sunday, it’s a requirement.

Re: Judgement Day
1.Do we have a choice in showing up for judgement day? No
2. Is there ANY chance ANYONE will develop a habit of not showing up on Judgement day? No

 

[tgGodsway]

The baptism of the Spirit includes power to heal the sick and work miracles, but His presence is a manifestation beginning on the inside. See John 7:38

blessings to you, got to go for now.
TgGodsway

 

[guanophore]

If the scenario in Hebrews actually happened, (which we don’t know, because the author used a potential situation, rather than a real one)

This certainly seems to be a convenient way to set aside the fact of what happened so it lines up with your theology!

 

[tgGodsway]

really, how so?

 

[opulumpu]

Yes, Christians sin

What is the consequence of our sin.

 

[ltwin]

What is the consequence of our sin.

We die unless we repent.

 

[MT1926]

That the “Day” spoken of is Sunday.

Sure if you limit your interpretation. But this verse is open to the possibilities of multiple interpretations, as I have already shown you.

Here is a good article you should read on the subject.

The Limits of Scripture Interpretation | Catholic Answers Magazine

Now you know why I take the position I do

Actually, the only reason I agree to your interpretation is based on the article I sighted. If you read CCC 2178 a little closer you will notice it never mentions the “DAY”. It never sights the verse and only takes a part of the verse to draw from, stopping at encourage one another. The first half of the verse is the basis for CCC 2178. It never tells us what the “DAY” is. You are drawing your own personal conclusion of this verse when you read CCC 2178.

Dr. Hahn does the same thing in the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible. He quotes and attributes the first half of the verse to CCC 2178 and comments separately on the second half of the verse, because it is not mentioned in the Catechism.

you know when that Day (of judgement ) is? Does any scripture give the day? All we know is, that Day (judgement Day) is coming… it might be a billion or billions of years from now. We don’t know.

Sure but Jesus tells us that we should still keep watch for the day.

On a side note it’s quite possible judgement day here might also be speaking of our personal judgement which is the day that we die. And it is possible to see that day draw near for some.

Re: Judgement Day

1.Do we have a choice in showing up for judgement day? No

1. Is there ANY chance ANYONE will develop a habit of not showing up on Judgement day? No

You are assuming the “all the more” is in reference to “encourage one another”. Isn’t it possible the context of the verse is encourage one another (To meet together on Sunday), however “all the more” might mean meet together more often than just Sunday. I mean you are aware that the Eucharistic sacrifice takes place every hour of every day, aren’t you.

Read the article, I’m sure it will help. But the citation from the Catechism doesn’t reference the “ DAY” and is not a good defense for your argument.

God Bless

 

[guanophore]

You may want to check your translation here

It certainly sounds like you checked your interpretation, tgG! This post sounds like something plagiarized out of the work of Dr. Thomas L. Constable,

http://soniclight.com/constable/notes/pdf/1john.pdf

You make good point, though, everyone tends to “read their bias” into the text. In this case our “bias” seems to be well informed by Dr. Constable.

In both cases Paul agreed with John that when he sins, his inner man was not a participant.

This is an amazing commentary on a world view that is very different from that of the Apostles. For them, a good tree bore good frut, and a bad tree bore bad fruit, and those who are in Christ are no longer slaves to sin (act in a way where the inner man did not participate}.

the Catholics. They think I am this mean spirited anti-Catholic. I am not.

Maybe it is related to all the rude and anti-catholic remarks in your posts?

 

[guanophore]

The day spoken of in Heb 10:25 is a knowable day that is already being celebrated and violated by some who have the habit of NOT showing up

This is your assumption through which you interpret the text.

You are doing the same thing you always chide @tgGodsway for doing!

One can’t warn people to show up for a future day (judgement day) whose time is unknowable,

Nonsense. Scripture is full of such warnings, including those given by Christ.

Is Heb 10:25 warning a particular group NOT to miss judgement day as is the habit of some of them?

No, the warning is not to neglect the assembly, as is the habit of some. It is not saying anything about “not missing” any specific day! It is the assembly that is not to be neglected.

Re: Judgement Day

1.Do we have a choice in showing up for judgement day? No

1. Is there ANY chance ANYONE will develop a habit of not showing up on Judgement day? No

I don’t know why your head goes here Steve.

Do we have any choice about whether or not we neglect the asembly of ourselves together as judgment day draws near? YES.

Is there any chance anyone will neglect the assembly as judgment day draws near? YES, it already was happening!

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

That the “Day” spoken of is Sunday.

Sure if you limit your interpretation. But this verse is open to the possibilities of multiple interpretations, as I have already shown you.

Here is a good article you should read on the subject.

The Limits of Scripture Interpretation | Catholic Answers

Now you know why I take the position I do

Actually, the only reason I agree to your interpretation is based on the article I sighted. If you read CCC 2178 a little closer you will notice it never mentions the “DAY”. It never sights the verse and only takes a part of the verse to draw from, stopping at encourage one another. The first half of the verse is the basis for CCC 2178. It never tells us what the “DAY” is. You are drawing your own personal conclusion of this verse when you read CCC 2178.

Dr. Hahn does the same thing in the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible. He quotes and attributes the first half of the verse to CCC 2178 and comments separately on the second half of the verse, because it is not mentioned in the Catechism.

you know when that Day (of judgement ) is? Does any scripture give the day? All we know is, that Day (judgement Day) is coming… it might be a billion or billions of years from now. We don’t know.

Sure but Jesus tells us that we should still keep watch for the day.

On a side note it’s quite possible judgement day here might also be speaking of our personal judgement which is the day that we die. And it is possible to see that day draw near for some.

Re: Judgement Day

1.Do we have a choice in showing up for judgement day? No

1. Is there ANY chance ANYONE will develop a habit of not showing up on Judgement day? No

You are assuming the “all the more” is in reference to “encourage one another”. Isn’t it possible the context of the verse is encourage one another (To meet together on Sunday), however “all the more” might mean meet together more often than just Sunday. I mean you are aware that the Eucharistic sacrifice takes place every hour of every day, aren’t you.

Read the article, I’m sure it will help. But the citation from the Catechism doesn’t reference the “ DAY” and is not a good defense for your argument.

God Bless

To try and shoehorn judgement day into Heb 10:25, you have to explain how anyone knows when judgement day is.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

The day spoken of in Heb 10:25 is a knowable day that is already being celebrated and violated by some who have the habit of NOT showing up

This is your assumption through which you interpret the text.

I gave my sources properly referenced.

guanophore:

You are doing the same thing you always chide @tgGodsway for doing!

Non sense.

One can’t warn people to show up for a future day (judgement day) whose time is unknowable,

guanophore:

Nonsense. Scripture is full of such warnings, including those given by Christ.

Okay, this is the perfect place to give those voluminous references.

Is Heb 10:25 warning a particular group NOT to miss judgement day as is the habit of some of them?

guanophore:

No, the warning is not to neglect the assembly, as is the habit of some. It is not saying anything about “not missing” any specific day! It is the assembly that is not to be neglected.

steve-b:

. What are they doing when they assemble? Be specific
. “the Day” of assembly is already known. How else can those who don’t meet on that day, be guilty of not meeting on that day and warned about the consequences for not meeting on that day, unless they know what day it is?

Re: Judgement Day

1.Do we have a choice in showing up for judgement day? No

1. Is there ANY chance ANYONE will develop a habit of not showing up on Judgement day? No

guanophore:

I don’t know why your head goes here Steve.

Maybe because YOU are pushing that view

guanophore:

Do we have any choice about whether or not we neglect the asembly of ourselves together as judgment day draws near? YES.

really?

Please explain.

guanophore:

Is there any chance anyone will neglect the assembly as judgment day draws near? YES, it already was happening!

Really?

So you know when judgement day Was? Okay when was it? I want to know the exact day, month, and year.

 

[MT1926]

To try and shoehorn judgement day into Heb 10:25, you have to explain how anyone knows when judgement day is.

Did you read the article?

The only person that needs to know when judgement day is, would be you, because of your strict interpretation.

The verse says draws near, we don’t need an exact day to know we live in troubling times and every day that passes by is on day drawn nearer to the day.

God bless

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

To try and shoehorn judgement day into Heb 10:25, you have to explain how anyone knows when judgement day is.

Did you read the article?

Yep. Jimmy wrote a good article

mt1926:

The only person that needs to know when judgement day is, would be you, because of your strict interpretation.

The verse says draws near, we don’t need an exact day to know we live in troubling times and every day that passes by is on day drawn nearer to the day.

God bless

You are the one saying the day is judgement day not me. Now prove using the context of Heb 10:25 that judgement day fits the context.