Yes, they did. However, the apostles preaching and making disciples of you and me is not quite the same as Jesus making Apostles who were infallible, is it?
Important point: Only Jesus forgives sin in the confessional. Like baptism, the priest is the earthly instrument used by God to forgive sins, which is why the priest never says - I absolve you in my name - but rather I absolve you from all your sins: In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy. Spirit. I am always surprised to see so many non-Catholics believing that sinful, fallible men offer forgiveness that can only come from God.
Yes these are Catholic forums. And i was waiting to say that seeing aswe are posting under “other religions” or what have you, so should we “anti-Catholics” not be able to say what we want to say here, as long as we aren’t belligerent? Or is this another thread where only Catholics point of view is always right? Cuz if so, then why open it up to anyone who isn’t a rite, or Rite, in case i offend someone. And please correct me in that spelling so i know.Typical 1-post troll.
Show some respect for the Holy Mass and remember that you are on a CATHOLIC forum. A less sensitive man (or woman) may find your statement about the Holy Mass offensive and possibly even scandalous.
You can disagree all you want. Just be nice most of the time.
The apostles were infallible ? Your discipleship view does not fit. Do things get lost in translation ? There is no such thing as "not quite the same "disciple by definition.
I agree that the CC has set it up that way in its treatises. Two classes again, right back to OT. The irony is there are giftings and offices but not “classes” ala OT. As Pater said, “the Holy Ghost has fallen upon them just like he did us”.
So anything said in private is not for us ? John contradicts himself in his epistles ? Maybe the “little children” and “brethren” must mean apostles successors to whom John wrote to ? Don’t think so.
Each of the Apostles was individually infallible.
John was writing to the Church, not to a private individual. Even Paul’s letters to Timothy and Titus, etc., do not fall into the same category as the private instruction Jesus gave to the Twelve.
As others have said, christian authority is justified when it is right, not necessarily dependent on its form or conveyance. No ones authority is “alone”. It comes from above, and down to us thru the church. Things can be "checked out’’ (prayer, bible, tradition,history, brethren). This can be done one on one, or two on one, or with the whole congregation, or a bunch of congregations. We can not or should not say the HS only guides a bunch of congregations when called upon, or one congregation, but beginning at the individual (one on one),and not just one person as in respector of.
What are we all doing here on CAF ? We are not bystanders on doctrinal issues.The HS is in us as He is in our leaders and teachers and dispute settlers. The HS desires understanding for us all. That some are more mature,even spiritual, even gifted, does not do away with this basic christian makeup.I think it is safe to say that the Holy spirit was not sent to you or me to settle doctrinal disputes when they arise - yes or no?
I agree: “John was writing to the Church, not to a private individual. Even Paul’s letters to Timothy and Titus, etc., do not fall into the same category as the private instruction Jesus gave to the Twelve”.
All can** teach**, discern, and settle, just that some are gifted at it, even given of God for our benefit. There isn’t one parent that doesn’t display this. Again our "makeup’ is basic and from there God matures and gifts for the edifying of the body. It is not all or nothing, this gifting, this authority.Funny.However, you make a great point when it comes to the notion that each individual has the authority to teach and discern truth, as well as **settle disputes **as the CC did in the 4th century for example e.g. the Catholic Ecumenical Councils.
A silly notion…
The big question remains: Who decides what is right i.e. who has the God-given authority to definitively settle doctrinal disputes when they arise, thus ensuring that truth has been preserved within Christendom? You have yet to answer that question.
Which church? Please be specific; after all there are hundreds of churches.
Sure. You and I for example can check out things via prayer, bible, tradition, history and brethren, but you and I were not entrusted with the authority to definitively settle doctrinal disputes when they occur - yes or no?
No, I cannot trust you or myself when it comes to discerning truth. Who was charged with the role of infallibly (via the guidance of the HS) settling disputes when you and I disagree?
Yes. However, what happens if someone should disagree with us, claiming that they have truth regarding this issue via the guidance of the HS i.e. they claim to possess the God-given authority to infallibly settle the matter vis-a-vis your question e.g. if I tell you that the Eucharist is Jesus’ body and blood and someone else tells you that I am wrong, and you agree with me, then who was charged with the authority to settle this dispute for the three of us? It’s not me, you or my sister.
Bingo.
You were not given the authority to discern truth (when divsion rears its ugly head) for Christendom, nor was I.
We are discussing various things e.g. beliefs etc. None of us can discern truth for the other person when impasses are realized. In the end Catholics defer to the authority of the Catholic church. To whom do you defer? Is it you, a particular church, or another person, or no one?
This idea has divided Christianity. I agree: We are not bystanders on doctrinal issues. Yes, the HS is in us as He is in our leaders and teachers. However the HS is not guiding all dispute settlers unless the HS is teaching different things to different people.
Yup. How does the HS accomplish this? It’s not by guiding each and every individual e.g. you, me and my sister, into all truth. If it is then the HS failed.
It has nothing to do with intellect, spiritual maturity etc…
It’s about God guiding Jesus’ church into all truth, beginning with the apostles, who passed on those doctrinal truths to their successors etc. etc…Determining which church that is, is ultimately up to each person. One thing is certain: God is not infallibly guiding every Christian in terms of definitively settling doctrinal differences. Again, if I am wrong and this is God’s approach to preserving doctrinal truth, then God failed. It is my understanding that each of the Twelve Apostles was individually infallible and could not lead the Church astray by false teaching.
I think it has to do with John 20:
Some might conclude that you believe that these men were infallible even outside the scope of their Christian mission, which is to impart the teachings of Jesus. To me, they were fallible men like every person, who were blessed with a special charism to teach infallibly i.e. they were infallible only as it pertains to the teachings of Jesus’ Catholic Church.
Again, Jesus does the forgiving; only God can forgive sins; not the minister (who can be called priest due to the fact that he is conformed to Jesus’ One Priesthood). The priest, (as is the case with baptism), is Jesus’ earthly instrument used by Jesus to forgive sins when we fall from grace. If you have never…and will never fall from grace then your sins have been forgiven (since baptism) and you are good to go i.e. no need for further forgiveness since you have never fallen from God’s grace since your baptism.
Non-Catholics (other than EO Christians) always ignore this obvious passage…
1 John 1:8-9
You sure?Non-Catholics (other than EO Christians) always ignore this obvious passage…
Hi Joe,Non-Catholics (other than EO Christians) always ignore this obvious passage…
I don’t know what the Catholic response is, but the Lutheran one is that, while this line from you quote is true ( “Again Jesus said, ‘Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.’ And with that he breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit.’” He sent them, as He is sending us, to bring the good news of the way to salvation and heaven to the whole world.), He also gives them authority to bind and loose sin, in His name.