Questions for Evolution-Deniers

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StAnastasia said:
Buffalo, you don’t understand; you may have whatever heaven or hell you like. I’m merely pointing out that there will not be perfect happiness in heaven as long as there is at least one mother who longs for her child suffering eternal torment in hell.

If you wish perfect happiness in heaven, either (1) all will eventually be saved, or (2) not everyone will have a complete memory of their earthly life and connections, or (3) God will have a way of transmuting maternal affection into happiness at the suffering of a mother’s eternally damned child.

StAnastasia
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Beatific Vision

The immediate knowledge of God which the angelic spirits and the souls of the just enjoy in Heaven. It is called “vision” to distinguish it from the mediate knowledge of God which the human mind may attain in the present life. And since in beholding Godintelligence finds perfect happiness, face to face the created the vision is termed “beatific”. For further explanation of the subject, see HEAVEN.
**II. HEAVEN **
[1023](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/1023.htm’)😉 Those who die in God’s grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God for ever, for they “see him as he is,” face to face:598

By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints . . . and other faithful who died after receiving Christ’s holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . . or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, . . .) already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment - and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven - have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature.599
[1024](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/1024.htm’)😉 This perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity - this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed - is called “heaven.” Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness.
[1025](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/1025.htm’)😉 To live in heaven is “to be with Christ.” The elect live "in Christ,"600 but they retain, or rather find, their true identity, their own name.601

For life is to be with Christ; where Christ is, there is life, there is the kingdom.602
[1026](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/1026.htm’)😉 By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has “opened” heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.
[1027](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/1027.htm’)😉 This mystery of blessed communion with God and all who are in Christ is beyond all understanding and description. Scripture speaks of it in images: life, light, peace, wedding feast, wine of the kingdom, the Father’s house, the heavenly Jerusalem, paradise: "no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him."603
[1028](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/1028.htm’)😉 Because of his transcendence, God cannot be seen as he is, unless he himself opens up his mystery to man’s immediate contemplation and gives him the capacity for it. The Church calls this contemplation of God in his heavenly glory “the beatific vision”:

How great will your glory and happiness be, to be allowed to see God, to be honored with sharing the joy of salvation and eternal light with Christ your Lord and God, . . . to delight in the joy of immortality in the Kingdom of heaven with the righteous and God’s friends.604
[1029](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/1029.htm’)😉 In the glory of heaven the blessed continue joyfully to fulfill God’s will in relation to other men and to all creation. Already they reign with Christ; with him "they shall reign for ever and ever."605
 
tonyrey said:
How could you love your children if they ignored, rejected, and detested you? To reject hell is to underestimate the power of free will and the reality of evil.
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I never said anything about a child ignoring, rejecting, and detesting its parents. Let’s suppose that a child turns out to be gay, loves his parents and supports them through old age, and enjoys a loving and faithful lifelong partnership with his partner. The typical poster on this forum would argue that young man ends up in hell. :mad: The parents love their child unconditionally, and yet must sit through their viewing of the endless shows on Beatific Vision Channel Five 😃 knowing that their beloved child is roasting in the flames of your “hell.” Can they enjoy the Beatific Vision perfectly as long as there is a single vestige of remembrance of their dear departed son? 😦 Or would God have to destroy every last vestige of memory of this son in order for the couple to enjoy the BV?

StAnastasia
 
Besides the essential object of beatitude the souls in heaven enjoy many blessings accidental to beatitude. We shall mention only a few:
  • **In heaven there is not the least pain or sadness; for every aspiration of nature**will of the blessed is in perfect harmony with the Divine will; they feel displeasure at the sins of men, but without experiencing any real pain. must be finally realized. The
  • They delight greatly in the company of Christ, the angels, and the saints, and in the reunion with so many who were dear to them on earth.
  • After the resurrection the union of the soul with the glorified body will be a special source of joy for the blessed.
  • They derive great pleasure from the contemplation of all those things, both created and possible, which, as we have shown, they see in God, at least indirectly as in the cause. And, in particular, after the last judgment the new heaven and the new earth will afford them manifold enjoyment. (See GENERAL JUDGMENT.)
  • The blessed rejoice over sanctifying grace and the supernatural virtues that adorn their soul; and any sacramental character they may have also adds to their bliss.
  • Very special joys are granted to the martyrs, doctors, and virgins, a special proof of victories won in time of trial (Revelation 7:11 sq.; Daniel 12:3; Revelation 14:3 sq.). Hence theologians speak of three particular crowns, aureolas, or glorioles, by which these three classes of blessed souls are accidentally honoured beyond the rest. Aureola is a diminutive of aurea, i.e. aurea corona (golden crown). (Cf. St. Thomas, Supp:96.)

    Since eternal happiness is metaphorically called a marriage of the soul with Christ, theologians also speak of the bridal endowments of the blessed. They distinguish seven of these gifts, four of which belong to the glorified body — light, impassibility, agility, subtility (see RESURRECTION); and three to the soul — vision, possession, enjoyment (visio, comprehensio, fruitio). Yet in the explanation given by the theologians of the three gifts of the soul we find but little conformity. We may identify the gift of vision with the habit of the light of glory, the gift of possession with the habit of that love in a wider sense which has found in God the fulfilment of its desires, and the gift of enjoyment we may identify with the habit of love properly so called (halitus caritatis) which rejoices to be with God; in this view these three infused habits would he considered simply as ornaments to beautify the soul. (Cf. St. Thomas, Supp:95)
 
buffalo said:
theologians speak of three particular crowns, aureolas, or glorioles, by which these three classes of blessed souls are accidentally honoured beyond the rest.)
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Ah – I forgot that there will be different ranks in heaven, rather than equality before God. 😉 But I don’t see in your post any mention of just how God will wipe clean any memory a parent has of her hell-bound child. I wonder what sort of mind-wipe God uses – is it chemical or surgical? Is it complete or only partial? Is it permanent or temporary? I’ll have to see what theologians have addressed this.
 
No point in talking about a so-called “typical” poster and ignoring God’s infinite mercy and infinite justice.

Faithful Catholics don’t judge the guilt of an individual before God – only God can do that and He judges with absolute perfection.

What must be judged by us is actions, speech, and writing as to whether they conform to truth as declared by Christ’s Church – we are commanded to do that. No one “ends up in hell” by having a disorder – they may do so by their freely chosen unrepented actions.
 
Abu said:
No one “ends up in hell” by having a disorder – they may do so by their freely chosen unrepented actions.
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That’s exactly what I meant. A mother has a baby, loves him and raises him to adulthood. He realizes he’s gay, has a lifelong relationship with another man, dies and goes to hell as a result of loving another man. Mother dies and goes to heaven; she either forgets her son entirely, or remembers him and knows he’s roasting in eternal torment. She’s perfectly happy with the beatific vision, except for that one nagging little memory of once having loved a son…
 
All Christians understand that God made each one of us as individuals. A wife is a gift from God. The state of marriage is a gift. We will be judged as individuals. God is no respector of persons. Whatever we were in this life, whatever our rank or social standing, will not matter as each will be judged according to his work.

Matthew 10: 37 "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 “He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.”

Peace,
Ed
 
You have to face the reality that you have supposed – which means that the Beatific Vision with God cannot entail anything but love for God with perfect and everlasting happiness. That happiness will never be clouded by grief (Apoc 21:4).

Imagination and speculation are futile here. However, there is no reason to reject hope, and the love that continually offers prayer and sacrifice for the erring in this life – we would be remiss to do so – and my wife and I understand the scenario you have presented. God always offers the final opportunity for repentance at death.
 
StAnastasia said:
That’s exactly what I meant. A mother has a baby, loves him and raises him to adulthood. He realizes he’s gay, has a lifelong relationship with another man, dies and goes to hell as a result of loving another man. Mother dies and goes to heaven; she either forgets her son entirely, or remembers him and knows he’s roasting in eternal torment. She’s perfectly happy with the beatific vision, except for that one nagging little memory of once having loved a son…
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Interesting and realistic problem, but I think the difficulty lies in a projection of how we view and understand things now. We project that into the next life, whereas our knowledge and love will purified and enhanced in the future life and we will see things quite differently than we do now.

Perhaps our perspective can alter a bit now for the better if we take into consideration that God condemns no one to eternal damnation. Eternal separation from God is a result of the individual’s choice to consistently refuse to love Him. The General Judgment, as St.Thomas teaches, is merely a making known to all the Particular Judgment; everything about the lives of everyone else and God’s actions in the their lives will be known to all (“There is nothing hidden that will not be made manifest”). Hence, all will see the prevalence of God’s justice, love and mercy in regard to each individual and how the or she chose to respond to God’s calling.

We are concerned now for the salvation of our loved ones, but anyone’s ultimate choice to reject God will in the future be completely understood by us. This vastly superior knowledge in the next life precludes the feelings of loss for anyone who totally rejects God, as it will not at that time be a reasonable feeling in light of everything known.

By way of comparison, a certain number of angels chose to turn from God. They did it in full knowledge of the consequences and under no influences that adversely affects the the will’s freedom to choose…It would foolish to feel sorry for the fallen angels once we have some idea of the nature of their circumstances in which they most freely chose to hate God. It is ultimately incomprehensible to us know how they could have made that irrevocable decision.

While the human condition on earth is extremely different, a rather broken condition, God’s work with the individual’s situation and particular circumstances will be known and hence we will have no compunction in the future life for those who permanently reject God any more than we do for the fallen angels. We will see that God did everything possible to save those who are lost while respecting their free will. Will we feel sorrow in the next life for those who truly hate the Love of our life? No.

The Virgin Mary appears on earth in attempts to save sinners, but her love for the sinners she know will reject God does not diminish in the least her eternal happiness. In fact, we must realize God, the Father Son and Holy Spirit, Mary, the saints and angels in heaven have a much greater love for our loved ones on earth than we do.

We alone are not responsible for our offspring. They came through us, so we have obligations to them, but they came from God. Ultimately, they are God’s responsibility, so we have to put everything in His hands.

I hope this helps a bit.
 
itinerant1 said:
In fact, we must realize God, the Father Son and Holy Spirit, Mary, the saints and angels in heaven have a much greater love for our loved ones on earth than we do.
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A bizarrely warped “love,” if they are happy to lounge around in heaven “loving” people as they burn in eternal torment. That’s not like any loving human father I’ve known; I’ll steer a very wide berth around those guys. Rossum’s Buddhism is beginning to sound a lot more rational – I daresay even beatific – at this point in our conversation…
 
StAnastasia said:
A bizarrely warped “love,” if they are happy to lounge around in heaven “loving” people as they burn in eternal torment. That’s not like any loving human father I’ve known; I’ll steer a very wide berth around those guys. Rossum’s Buddhism is beginning to sound a lot more rational – I daresay even beatific – at this point in our conversation…
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That is an understandable, but unfortunate response. You must think there is a better or more accurate perspective and understanding on the situation. So, what would that be?

Have you read any of the lives of the saints and about their visions?
 
StAnastasia said:
A bizarrely warped “love,” if they are happy to lounge around in heaven “loving” people as they burn in eternal torment. That’s not like any loving human father I’ve known; I’ll steer a very wide berth around those guys. Rossum’s Buddhism is beginning to sound a lot more rational – I daresay even beatific – at this point in our conversation…
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olrl.org/doctrine/cry.shtml
 
rossum said:
How do you know that Christianity is true since you have no source of absolute truth?

Buddhism claims that if I follow its precepts I will get certain effects. So far it has delivered everything that it has promised for the distance I have progressed along its path. Since it has worked so far I am prepared to follow it further. Once it stops working I will look for something else.

rossum
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olrl.org/doctrine/cry.shtml
 
The answer to eternal destiny concerns is we need to pray constantly and trust in God.

Life is a test. None of us can be assured of our own salvation while still in this life. No one is saved in this life, contrary to what the Protestants wrongly believe. No one is saved until they die and come to judgment at the moment of death. The angst can be profoundly overwhelming unless we commit ourselves totally to God.

Even St. Paul said that even though his conscience does not accuse him, he must await judgment. Paul could not be certain in this life about his own salvation, yet we think if anyone is saved surely Paul is. And surely he was among the elect.

Who was the great saint who said, if you pray you will be saved. If you do not pray you will be lost?
 
StAnastasia said:
[
How could you love your children if they ignored, rejected, and detested you? To reject hell is to underestimate the power of free will and the reality of evil.
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You gave the impression that separation from your children is always evil and unjustified…
Let’s suppose that a child turns out to be gay, loves his parents and supports them through old age, and enjoys a loving and faithful lifelong partnership with his partner. The typical poster on this forum would argue that young man ends up in hell. :mad:
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I don’t know where or how you obtain your impression of the** typical** poster! The teaching of Christ and the Church is that we should not judge others…
The parents love their child unconditionally, and yet must sit through their viewing of the endless shows on Beatific Vision Channel Five 😃 knowing that their beloved child is roasting in the flames of your “hell.” Can they enjoy the Beatific Vision perfectly as long as there is a single vestige of remembrance of their dear departed son? 😦 Or would God have to destroy every last vestige of memory of this son in order for the couple to enjoy the BV?
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All this is a distortion of the simple fact that a person in hell chooses to reject everyone - including those who loved him/her in this world - in order to have absolute freedom. We have enough evidence of the lust for power and the horrific suffering it inflicts on others. Would you want to spend eternity in the presence of such monsters even if you had brought them into the world?
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StAnastasia said:
Because it’s on the “Our Lady of the Rosary Library” website – Mary wrote it – duh!
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Looking at the last bit of the page, Pope Benedict changed the “must be a Catholic to be saved” bit recently, didn’t he? I’ve got to say, makes me feel a bit better… although apparently it’s all based on one of the Psalms, which I’ve always thought (along with Job) seemed unlikely sources of revealed truth, but rather inspirational tales of devotion…

Where does the narrative on this webpage come from anyway? (Just waiting to be told it’s something I should really be familiar with to be arguing on this site :o)
 
This thread has gotten wildly off-topic. Could I respectfully ask the posters who wish to discuss salvation, heaven, and hell to do so on another thread?
 
StAnastasia said:
Ah – I forgot that there will be different ranks in heaven, rather than equality before God. 😉
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Why does that bother you?
StAnastasia said:
But I don’t see in your post any mention of just how God will wipe clean any memory a parent has of her hell-bound child. I wonder what sort of mind-wipe God uses – is it chemical or surgical? Is it complete or only partial? Is it permanent or temporary?
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It was my understanding that we must be willing to give up everything that is not God in order to attain the beatific vision. Including other people (no, unlike you I would rather be in Heaven with God than with my child who is in Hell). And I suppose, we must give up memories of people which pertain to anti-God things which they have done (whether they be in Heaven or Hell).

This isn’t a matter of God forcibly mind-wiping us, but rather us asking God, BEGGING God to remove any memories we have of others acting in sin.
StAnastasia said:
I’ll have to see what theologians have addressed this.
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I just read an excellent book on this subject. It’s called “The Fulfillment of All Desire” by Ralph Martin. There are excerpts from the writings of St. Catherine, St. Teresa, St. John of the Cross, St. Bernard, St. Therese, and a few others - and many of these writings give insight into the realities of Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory. I have the paperback version, and I specifically direct you to pages 52-60.

These saints are all Doctors of the Church who lived in the pre_Evolutionary days of the Inquisition, Crusades, & Dark Ages, so they probably hold no weight with you. But it will be interesting to see what you come up with when talking to “theologians” whom you trust instead.
 
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