Questions for Muslims posting here

[kristin2007]

Muslims are forever telling me about so-called “scientific miracles” in the koran. By this they mean that there are scientific truths in the koran that Western scientists only discovered (re-discovered?) many centuries later.

There are now many websites devoted to this topic. Recently the science faculty of al Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt, granted a doctorate degree to a dissertation on the topic of “scientific miracles” in the koran.

See: dailystaregypt.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=9347

Here are my questions.

–Do you personally believe there are “scientific miracles” in the koran?

–If there are scientific miracles in the koran why can I find no reference to these in recognised peer-reviewed scientific journals such as Nature, Science or Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences?

In regards to the second question, two names constantly recur when discussing the so-called “scientific miracles” in the koran. They are Keith Moore and Maurice Bucaille. Keith Moore actually wrote a well-regarded textbook on embryology. Both Moore and Bucaille have published articles in peer-reviewed scientific journals.

However neither has ever published anything about scientific miracles in the koran in a peer reviewed scientific journal.

Why is that?

Note, any scientist who discovered scientific miracles in a 14 century document would be more famous than Einstein! This brings me to my third question:

–Why don’t Moore and Bucaille submit papers on their amazing discovery to Nature, the world’s premier scientific journal?

I would appreciate some real answers. NOT links to Muslims websites, online lectures by Imams, etc.

 

[rationally]

–If there are scientific miracles in the koran why can I find no reference to these in recognised peer-reviewed scientific journals such as Nature, Science or Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences?

**The journals you are referring are not faith-based nor free from politics thus they don’t accept any thing that strengthens or give rise to any belief/any religion, let alone Islam.

Not even Christanity. The reason, because of the West’s past horrible experience with their own Christian fundamentalists. Eversince Renaissance ( thanks to the Islamic/Muslims contribution to it’s emergence), West is distanicng herself from any faith and any faculty of exploration/discovery that can give rise to any faith/religion. It is due to the fear of re-subjugation of the West which may drag into an another Dark Age (the age when they were living a life worse than animals).**

 

[rationally]

Is there any scientific miracle in any version of the Holy Bible?
If yes, is it published in any recognised peer-reviewed scientific journals such as Nature, Science or Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences?

 

[kristin2007]

Rationally,

I am not aware of any Catholics who claim that there are “scientific miracles” in the Bible in the sense that Muslims claim there are “scientific miracles” in the koran. That is, I am not aware of Catholics claiming that there are scientific truths in the Bible that were only re-discovered centuries later.

I have yet to hear of a Catholic university’s science faculty granting a Ph.D. for a dissertation on “scientific miracles in the Bible.”

Your post does not answer the questions I set.

 

[rationally]

Rationally,

I am not aware of any Catholics who claim that there are “scientific miracles” in the Bible in the sense that Muslims claim there are “scientific miracles” in the koran. That is, I am not aware of Catholics claiming that there are scientific truths in the Bible that were only re-discovered centuries later.

I have yet to hear of a Catholic university’s science faculty granting a Ph.D. for a dissertation on “scientific miracles in the Bible.”

Your post does not answer the questions I set.

**Do you mean to say, there is no scientific truth or miracle at all in any version of the Holy Bible?

Please correct me if I misunderstood you.

Thanks**

 

[Americanrevert]

**Hello,

okies, here are some

THE COMING OF THE UNIVERSE INTO EXISTENCE
THE EXPANSION OF THE UNIVERSE
THE END OF THE UNIVERSE AND THE BIG CRUNCH
CREATION FROM HOT SMOKE
THE SPLITTING ASUNDER OF “THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH”
THE CREATION OF WHAT LIES BETWEEN THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH
THE PERFECT EQUILIBRIUM IN THE UNIVERSE
THE FINE TUNING IN THE UNIVERSE
THE STRUCTURAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE SUN, THE MOON AND THE STARS
ORBITS AND THE ROTATING UNIVERSE
THE SUN’S TRAJECTORY
THE MOON’S ORBIT
CALCULATING THE LUNAR YEAR
THE FORCE OF GRAVITY AND ORBITAL MOVEMENTS
THE ROUNDNESS OF THE EARTH
THE EARTH’S DIRECTION OF ROTATION
THE EARTH’S GEOID SHAPE
THE DIAMETERS OF THE EARTH AND SPACE
THE LAYERS OF THE ATMOSPHERE
THE PROTECTED ROOF
THE SKY MADE A DOME
THE RETURNING SKY
THE LAYERS OF THE EARTH
THE EARTH DISGORGES ITS CHARGES
THE FUNCTION OF MOUNTAINS
THE MOVEMENT OF MOUNTAINS
DIFFERENT POINTS IN THE RISING AND SETTING OF THE SUN
LAND LOSS AT THE EXTREMITIES
THE SPLITTING EARTH
THE MIRACLE OF IRON
THE FORMATION OF PETROL
THE RELATIVITY OF TIME
CREATION IN SIX DAYS
THE TRUTH OF DESTINY
DUALITY IN CREATION
SUB-ATOMIC PARTICLES
BLACK HOLES
PULSARS: PULSATING STARS
THE STAR SIRIUS
LIGHT AND DARK
COMBUSTION WITHOUT FIRE
THE WEIGHT OF CLOUDS
THE PROPORTION OF RAIN
THE FORMATION OF RAIN
RAINS WHICH BRING A DEAD LAND BACK TO LIFE
THE FORMATION OF HAIL, THUNDER AND LIGHTNING

THE FECUNDATING WINDS
THE STAGES OF WIND FORMATION
HOW THE PROCESS OF PHOTOSYNTHESIS BEGINS IN THE MORNING
THE SEAS NOT MINGLING WITH ONE ANOTHER
DARKNESS IN THE SEAS AND INTERNAL WAVES
THE REGION THAT CONTROLS OUR MOVEMENTS
HEARTS FIND PEACE IN THE REMEMBRANCE OF ALLAH
FORGIVENESS ACCORDING TO THE MORALS OF ISLAM AND ITS BENEFITS ON HEALTH
HOW PRAYER ACCELERATES THE TREATMENT OF THE SICK
STRESS AND DEPRESSION: THE RESULTS OF NOT ABIDING BY THE RELIGION
THE BIRTH OF A HUMAN BEING
THE CREATION OF HUMAN BEINGS FROM WATER
CREATION FROM CLAY
THE PROGRAMMING IN GENES
THE MENSTRUAL PERIOD
PREGNANCY AND BIRTH
THE SEQUENCE IN DEVELOPMENT OF HUMAN ORGANS
THE FORMATION OF MILK
MIRACULOUS MIXTURE: MOTHER’S MILK
THE IDENTITY IN THE FINGERPRINT
THE FEMALE HONEY BEE
THE MIRACLE OF HONEY
THE DATE AND ITS USES AS DESCRIBED IN THE QUR’AN
THE FIG: A FRUIT WHOSE PERFECTION HAS ONLY RECENTLY BEEN REVEALED
FISH: A VALUABLE SOURCE OF NUTRITION
PORK AND ITS HARMFUL EFFECTS ON HEALTH
THE OLIVE: A HEALTH-GIVING PLANT
CORONARY BY-PASS SURGERY
HEALTH BENEFITS OF MOVEMENT, WASHING AND DRINKING WATER
THE EXISTENCE OF MICROSCOPIC LIFE
THE EXISTENCE OF ANIMAL SOCIETIES
BIOMIMETICS: DRAWING INSPIRATION FROM THE DESIGN IN LIVING THINGS
LOCUSTS MOVING IN SWARMS
ANT COMMUNICATION
THE FOOD CYCLE
THE EARS ARE ACTIVE DURING SLEEP
THE IMPORTANCE OF MOVEMENT IN SLEEP
REDUCED MOVEMENT AT NIGHT
CHEST CONTRACTION WITH INCREASING HEIGHT

ok, let’s compare this with the bible whom yall say Mohammad stole from

Are you a scientist?

americanrevert**

 

[rationally]

I have yet to hear of a Catholic university’s science faculty granting a Ph.D. for a dissertation on “scientific miracles in the Bible.”

**

Simply because any Catholic university has not yet granted such a PhD nor any Catholic/Christian student has yet tried academically to “prove” any miracle of Holy Bible (if it really exists), does not mean that no other religious book too has any scientific miracle nor their followers even make an effort nor any Islamic or Buddhist University should grant any such Ph.D…right? or…?

Btw, Al-Azhar is basically a Islamic University located in a predominantly Muslim country, not like any Western faith-free type.

**

 

[rationally]

I have yet to hear of a Catholic university’s science faculty granting a Ph.D. for a dissertation on “scientific miracles in the Bible.”

Is there any Western/Christian Universty which allows students to do such research to “prove” or look for the scientific miracles in any version of the Holy Bible, in the first place. If no, why?

 

[kristin2007]

Americanrevert

You have provided a list of some of the alleged scientific miracles in the koran.

You have NOT provided peer reviewed scientific sources to back up your claims that these constitute miraculous pre-knowledge in a 7th century document.

–Please provide references to peer reviewed scientific journals to back up your claims of alleged miracles.

–Alternatively please explain why there are no articles in peer reviewed scientific journals about this amazing phenomenon (alleged) of scientific pre-knowledge in a 14 century old document.

As it happens I am a scientist. A physicist to be precise. However that is not the issue.

rationally

In the sense that Muslims claim for the koran I am not aware of any scientific miracles in the Bible. Nor am I aware of any Catholics making such claims.

 

[Americanrevert]

**Hello

You have provided a list of some of the alleged scientific miracles in the koran

.

they are not alleged if they are proven and they are proven.

by Keith L. Moore, PhD., F.I.A.C. (A Scientist’s Interpretation Of References To Embryology In The Quran ) You can look what he has to say about Embryology in the Quran…if it pleases you.

Prof. Gerald G. Goeringer “…this description antedates by many centuries the recording of … traditional scientific literature.” You can look him up.

Prof. William W. Hey “I would think it must be [from] the divine being.” Him too

Prof. T. V. N. Persaud “…this is a divine inspiration or revelation…” *him too
*
Prof. E. Marshall Johnson “I see nothing in conflict that …divine intervention was involved.” him too

Prof. Alfred Kroner “Someone 1400 years ago could not know the heavens and the earth had the same origin…” * him too*

Prof. Joe Simpson "…knowledge in the Quran … derived from God.” him too

Prof. Yoshihide Kozai “I am very much impressed by finding true astronomical facts in Quran." him too

Prof. Tejatat Tejasen* “I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Quran 1400 years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means.” This scientist became a Muslim! you can look him up too!

ok, these are some scientist’s views on the miracles of science in the Quran. Since you are a scientist, you can look them up yourself and do your own contrast, comparison work

Modern science proves the reality of the creation of the universe by Allah, contrary to what outdated materialist philosophy maintains. Newsweek made “Science Finds God” the cover story of its July 27th 1998 issue
“We did not create heaven and earth and everything between them to no purpose. That is the opinion of those who are disbelievers.” *(Surah Sad: 27)

Are you stronger in structure or is heaven? He built it. He raised its vault high and made it level. He darkened its night and brought forth its morning light. After that He smoothed out the earth… (Surat an Naziat: 27-30)

He has made night and day subservient to you, and the sun and moon and stars, all subject to His command. There is certainly Signs in that for people who pay heed. (Surat an-Nahl: 12)

He makes night merge into day and day merge into night, and He has made the sun and moon subservient, each one running until a specified time. That is Allah, your Lord. The Kingdom is His. Those you call on besides Him have no power over even the smallest speck.(Surah Fatir: 13)
(now compare this to the contradiction in the Bible where the day was created before the sun!!!)

hope you can do your own research now

thank you

americanrevert
**

 

[kristin2007]

Rationally

Let me expand a little on the Muslim claim.

Muslims claim that the koran contains certain scientific truths that were not known at the time it was compiled.

An example is 23:12-14 in the koran. It reads as follows:

“…. Then placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging; Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!”

A Dr. Keith Moore claimed that this was a bit of embryology not known in the seventh century. In fact it reads like a paraphrase of the work of a second century anatomist called Galen who wrote a book called “On Sperm.”

Now think about this, Rationally. Suppose we could demonstrate that a 14-century old document contained was a source of scientific truths that were only re-discovered by Western scientists many centuries later.

–Would that not be the scientific finding of the century?

–Wouldn’t Nature, the world’s pre-eminent scientific journal, be publishing articles on the topic?

–Wouldn’t scientist be falling over themselves to learn Arabic so that they could study the koran and obtain advance knowledge of more scientific truths as yet undiscovered?

**Do you see any of these things happening Rationally?
**

I am not aware of any Catholic claims of a similar nature regarding the Bible.

Americanrevert:

You have provided a list of various books and publications in which scientists have **claimed **there are miracles in the koran.

Which of these claims have been subject to peer review?

Who are the reviewers?

Do you even know what peer review means?

Unless a scientific claim is subject to peer review it cannot be taken seriously. That applied to Albert Einstein and it certainly applies to those you listed.

 

[rationally]

rationally

In the sense that Muslims claim for the koran I am not aware of any scientific miracles in the Bible. Nor am I aware of any Catholics making such claims.

**Is just Muslims’ claim bothering you?

How about the following horrible “biggest discovery” which was not only accepted as scientific but was included officially even in the science text books of the Western schools and remained there for decades and might have been remianed still had it not accidentally proven to be a greatest fraud/hoax of 20th century:

“Piltdown Man went from being one of the biggest discoveries of the 20th Century to being its greatest scientific embarrassment.”

“Thousands of text books would have to be revised because of the hoax, said the Daily Mirror”

**

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3264321.stm

LOL

On what “scientific” ground this “scientific embarrassment” was accepted and do you know how many dissertations were written/submitted ( which used/supplimented this “scientific embarrassment” as fact/proof ) and degrees were awarded by the Western Science Universities? Were these all based on actual scientific proof/evidence or mere blind-faith in Darwinism/Neo-Darwinism or due to debar any trace of Creationism at any rate?

Does this attitude too surprises you or just what Al-Azher did recently?

 

[kristin2007]

Rationally

Nobody claims that the scientific enterprise is infallible. No human institution is perfect.

What we say is that it is a self-correcting system. Eventually discoveries are subject to re-examination and the errors and outright forgeries are exposed. “Eventually” may however be a long time.

I can quote more recent cases of outright scientific fraud than Piltdown man. There is the case of the notorious Dr Hwang Woo-suk. He made the most amazing claims for stem-cell research. You can read about his downfall here:

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4763973.stm

The point about Muslim claims for scientific miracles in the koran however is that they do not submit the alleged findings to peer review.

 

[Americanrevert]

**Kristin,

I gave you scientist’s views…I am no scientist but you say you are…go read what I have given you and do your own research. You can sit there and say all you want and claim all you want but at least be honest and fair about what I have given you. You have your own theory to be sure, but that does not cancel out what I have given you from genuine known scientists. I never heard of you as well as many scientists out there, but what I have posted is this thread, you contact these scientist and have it out with them!!! you can go over everything you wish with non scientist muslim people, maybe so you can claim to sound superior and Allah only knows, but I am sitting here telling you to make the claim against those non muslim scientists* I HAVE GIVEN YOU THE NAMES OF. * This should be MORE INTRIGUING YES??? non muslim makin these claims???

Thank you

americanrevert**

 

[rationally]

Americanrevert:

You have provided a list of various books and publications in which scientists have **claimed **there are miracles in the koran.

Which of these claims have been subject to peer review?

Who are the reviewers?

Do you even know what peer review means?

Unless a scientific claim is subject to peer review it cannot be taken seriously. That applied to Albert Einstein and it certainly applies to those you listed.

**

First, whatever substance found (so far) in the Holy Qur’an that is taken/recognised/claimed by Muslims as uptodate scientific in nature, does not really require a peer review process, as it does not actually need a high caliber scientist’s explanation/investigation. A person with basic science and Arabic knowledge can easily understand and recognise that substance as definitely scientific that was not really known before.

So credit goes to the Holy Qur’an no matter what and whether scientific peer magazines of the West recognise this fact or not due to politics or any other reason.

This fact is one of the factors that has made Islam fastest growing religion in the World today among educated people, even in the USA.**

 

[dolphinlove]

Is there any scientific miracle in any version of the Holy Bible?
If yes, is it published in any recognised peer-reviewed scientific journals such as Nature, Science or Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences?

Oh now this is a classic Muslim response, why not try answering a question for a change instead of trying to throw back the questions…

 

[rationally]

The point about Muslim claims for scientific miracles in the koran however is that they do not submit the alleged findings to peer review.

**Do they (Muslims) have to submit them?

Are Muslims or a handfull of Muslims holding the discoveries of the Holy Qur’an with them by hiding it somewhere that now they should be submitted to your peer reviewers, like how scientists keep their discoveries in secret up until they get proper credit for their effort/ability?

Holy Quran is out there in it’s original Arabic for 1400 years. If you are really serious and like to verify it’s genuineness, go and do your own research and if you find it true recognise it. Otherwise do you think simply because your peer reviewef journals did not recieve any such paper submitted to them nor they conduct their own research/verification, it is going to change the scientific nature of the Holy Quranic Text? The fact remains, no matter what. Whether you like it or not. Whether you are interested in it or not.

Have you visited a country named Japan that exists on the face of the earth? If you haven’t visited, then do Japanese now have to submit a dissertation to geographical peer-reviewed journals to prove that their country really exists on the face of the earth otherwise people like you who have never visited Japan, Japan doesn’t really exists?**

 

[kristin2007]

Americanrevert,

Nobody can be an expert in everything. Nobody can study every aspect of science.

So how do I, a physicist, know whether an article in say cellular biology is worth reading?

The answer is peer review. Peer review is the quality control mechanism for scientific literature.

Here’s how it works.

Suppose you submit an article to, say Cell, one of the top ranking journals. The editors of Cell will assign the article to two or more “referees.” The referees will study the article and advise the editors whether it meets the journal’s quality standard.

So when I see an article in Cell I know it has been through the quality control mechanism. Doesn’t mean it is absolutely correct Nobody can be sure when you are doing leading edge research. But it is worth studying.

This method of peer review is essential because we cannot research everything ourselves. Science, by its nature, has to be a cooperative enterprise.

Now my problem with claims of so-called “scientific miracles” in the koran is that the claimants never submit their findings to this quality control mechanism.

Why not?

Americanrevert,

It does not matter whether or not the claimants you quoted are scientists. That is not the issue.

The issue is simply this. They have not submitted their claims for peer review. That leads to the suspicion that they have something to hide; that their claims would not stand up to rigorous scientific scrutiny.

In fact a colleague and I did research Keith Moore’s claim. The kindest interpretation we can place on Moore’s statements is that he was unaware that Galen had written similar things 5 centuries before they appeared in the koran.

[Note that Moore has **never submitted his astounding claim to peer review.

Rationally,

All claims of a scientific nature need to go through peer review to be taken seriously.

If the truth of the claims is as obvious as you assert there should be no problem with the peer review.

The truth is probably this:

Those who claim that the koran is a source of scientific miracles have never submitted their claims to reputable scientific journals because they know perfectly well that their claims would never survive a rigorous peer review process.

 

[rationally]

Originally Posted by rationally
Is there any scientific miracle in any version of the Holy Bible?
If yes, is it published in any recognised peer-reviewed scientific journals such as Nature, Science or Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences?

Oh now this is a classic Muslim response, why not try answering a question for a change instead of trying to throw back the questions…

**

The do you think there are scientific miracles in any version of the Holy Bible or in the one you consider as Holy if not in Apocyphal books?

BTW, there was a reason behind my “classic” response.

**

 

[kristin2007]

dolphinlove

I have been challenging Muslims on this issue for years. The evasions you see here are typical. Most of them have no understanding of science anyway.

Interestingly, Muslims who are serious scientists - ie they do research and publish their findings in peer reviewed journals – never claim there are any scientific miracles in the koran. In fact they are quite dismayed by these claims.

Rationally

Your last post is a null response.