Questions for Muslims

[PhanxicoXavier]

1. Where did Muhammed get the authority to say that he was “the Seal of the Prophets”? Is it from the Holy Bible? If so, how can that be, since he taught that the Bible was corrupt (even so, Muslims continue to draw proof of Mohamet’s legitimacy from this “corrupt” source - so how do you decide what has been corrupted and what has not?)? If it isn’t from the Holy Bible -where is it?
2. Does Islam believe that Jesus Christ (Isa as you call Him) was The Messias? If so, where do the Holy Scriptures indicate that there would need to be a “Seal of the Prophets” after The Messias?
3. Doesn’t the Qu’ran teach that the Blessed Virgin Mary was conceived without sin and that Christ was conceived in Her Immaculate womb? Doesn’t the Qu’ran teach that Christ never sinned? (If I’m wrong, then please enlighten me) If so, why is it that the Life of Christ is holier than that of Mohamet? Why was Mohamet, the “Seal of the Prophets” not born of a virgin and sinless?
4. Does the Qu’ran teach that Jews can go to Heaven? If so, what need is there for Islam, if you can be saved in another religion?
5. Muslims continually say that the Qu’ran has been unchanged since (whenever) it was written. Where is the proof for this? During the long centuries of the Ottoman Empire’s rule, wasn’t the Qu’ran standardized? If so, that would mean that there were different versions of it. If this is true, then Muslims cannot claim that the Bible is false because there were different versions.
6. **What miracles, ancient or modern, does Islam have to offer in defense of its truth? **Military might is not a miracle. Neither are animals reacting to the Mohammedan call to prayer (as I have seen on Youtube). I really doubt that fruit seeds are as well.
7. I abhor the Islamic view of Heaven. I abhor it. Is it true that Mahomet taught that Heaven is a garden of carnal delight? If so, what is your opinion of this? Saint Alphonsus writes that this “Heaven” is fit only for animals. Do you really believe that this is the final goal of man? Not to enjoy the presence of God, Who alone would be sufficient for indescribable satisfaction for eternity, but to lay around in a seedy fleshpot like a scene taken from a XXX movie? Words cannot describe my detestation of this abomination.
8. How do you prove that Christ was not crucified, died, and resurrected?

 

[BryanM27]

1. Where did Muhammed get the authority to say that he was “the Seal of the Prophets”? Is it from the Holy Bible? If so, how can that be, since he taught that the Bible was corrupt (even so, Muslims continue to draw proof of Mohamet’s legitimacy from this “corrupt” source - so how do you decide what has been corrupted and what has not?)? If it isn’t from the Holy Bible -where is it?
2. Does Islam believe that Jesus Christ (Isa as you call Him) was The Messias? If so, where do the Holy Scriptures indicate that there would need to be a “Seal of the Prophets” after The Messias?
3. Doesn’t the Qu’ran teach that the Blessed Virgin Mary was conceived without sin and that Christ was conceived in Her Immaculate womb? Doesn’t the Qu’ran teach that Christ never sinned? (If I’m wrong, then please enlighten me) If so, why is it that the Life of Christ is holier than that of Mohamet? Why was Mohamet, the “Seal of the Prophets” not born of a virgin and sinless?
4. Does the Qu’ran teach that Jews can go to Heaven? If so, what need is there for Islam, if you can be saved in another religion?
5. Muslims continually say that the Qu’ran has been unchanged since (whenever) it was written. Where is the proof for this? During the long centuries of the Ottoman Empire’s rule, wasn’t the Qu’ran standardized? If so, that would mean that there were different versions of it. If this is true, then Muslims cannot claim that the Bible is false because there were different versions.
6. **What miracles, ancient or modern, does Islam have to offer in defense of its truth? **Military might is not a miracle. Neither are animals reacting to the Mohammedan call to prayer (as I have seen on Youtube). I really doubt that fruit seeds are as well.
7. I abhor the Islamic view of Heaven. I abhor it. Is it true that Mahomet taught that Heaven is a garden of carnal delight? If so, what is your opinion of this? Saint Alphonsus writes that this “Heaven” is fit only for animals. Do you really believe that this is the final goal of man? Not to enjoy the presence of God, Who alone would be sufficient for indescribable satisfaction for eternity, but to lay around in a seedy fleshpot like a scene taken from a XXX movie? Words cannot describe my detestation of this abomination.
8. How do you prove that Christ was not crucified, died, and resurrected?

These are all great questions, and I hope we get the answers from our Muslim friends here on CAF. I can answer the part that I highlighted: Yes they do believe in a virgin birth for Jesus. That much I know. Beyond that I cannot answer but I hope to see them step in and enlighten us soon.

 

[Tocra]

They claim affiliation to the jewish & christian faith for only 1 reason.

To lend historical credibility to their otherwise unknown idol (one of many hundreds in the ka’abah)

Strictly speaking, muslims cannot use the Bible because it speaks and prophesies against the islamic faith. We see the classification of the Anti-Christ befitting the islamic faith, we see the denial of muhammad’s prophethood in Luke 16:16. etc etc.

YET…if islam does not claim affiliation, how are they ever going to establish the religion for islam??? Like the buddhists? Like the Hindhus? And how are they able to accuse the former faiths of corruption and deserving of death (a key initiative for the foes of God). They cannot.

Its like someone going into your house and saying he’s your brother. Then after staying for a while, he accuses you of not being the real son of the house because the birthcertificate was corrupted and you got the name of the house owner wrong. Gives you a new unknown name - allah, and starts making sure you submit or pay penance.

.

 

[elwill]

1. Where did Muhammed get the authority to say that he was “the Seal of the Prophets”? Is it from the Holy Bible?

he is a prophet , then he get the authority from God directly
we believe that he was mentioned in the bible , but we believe that he is last of prophets because he himself said that not because the bible said it

If so, how can that be, since he taught that the Bible was corrupt (even so, Muslims continue to draw proof of Mohamet’s legitimacy from this “corrupt” source - so how do you decide what has been corrupted and what has not?)? If it isn’t from the Holy Bible -where is it?

corrupt of the thing dosn’t mean that whole of it is wrong , it just means that although it holds much of the truth but it contain errors and additions , it’s not the pure massage of jesus , it’s a collection of records from many people (known and known people ) in different times

and we use the bible in our discussion as a proofs against you ( as long as you believe it’s not corrupeted and it’s 100% true ) , not as a proofs for us

1. Does Islam believe that Jesus Christ (Isa as you call Him) was The Messias? If so, where do the Holy Scriptures indicate that there would need to be a “Seal of the Prophets” after The Messias?

we believe that the comforter which jesus talked about is our prophet , not the holy ghost. beside their are verses which talking about jews waiting accomplish of three prophecies
1- john the babtist
2- the christ
3- the prophet

1. Doesn’t the Qu’ran teach that the Blessed Virgin Mary was conceived without sin and that Christ was conceived in Her Immaculate womb? Doesn’t the Qu’ran teach that Christ never sinned? (If I’m wrong, then please enlighten me) If so, why is it that the Life of Christ is holier than that of Mohamet? Why was Mohamet, the “Seal of the Prophets” not born of a virgin and sinless?

actually it wasn’t mentioned in quran that jesus is sinless or never sinned , it is not mentioned any sins about him either

we are not allowed to make any discriminations between prophets of God , beside i don’t think that level of holiness is measured by the type of miracles which was given to them

1. Does the Qu’ran teach that Jews can go to Heaven? If so, what need is there for Islam, if you can be saved in another religion?

As far as the Jews are concerning, their faith meant believing in the Tawraat (original Torah) and following the way of Moosa (peace be upon him) until ‘Eesa came, after which whoever denied jesus /Eesa, was doomed. As far as the Christians are concerned, their faith meant believing in the Injeel (original Gospel) and following ‘Eesa; whoever did this was a believer whose faith was acceptable to Allaah, until Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came, after which whoever did not follow Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and denied him as a prophet, was doomed.

1. Muslims continually say that the Qu’ran has been unchanged since (whenever) it was written. Where is the proof for this? During the long centuries of the Ottoman Empire’s rule, wasn’t the Qu’ran standardized? If so, that would mean that there were different versions of it. If this is true, then Muslims cannot claim that the Bible is false because there were different versions.

we have to go the details here , for example to knows what is that means to have many versions of it , what kind of diffrences in it , why did they standarized it , who and how and when ?
alot of details should to be discussed if you wanna to make comparisons between bible and quran

1. **What miracles, ancient or modern, does Islam have to offer in defense of its truth? **Military might is not a miracle. Neither are animals reacting to the Mohammedan call to prayer (as I have seen on Youtube). I really doubt that fruit seeds are as well.

offcourse this isn’t the miracles which will we use to defense the truth , we defense the truth by logic and rational , we defense the truth by the facts
the miracle of our prophet is quran , you will find us always refere to it in our descussions . and as you can see the miracle of our relelgion between our hands and under the test all the time

1. I abhor the Islamic view of Heaven. I abhor it. Is it true that Mahomet taught that Heaven is a garden of carnal delight? If so, what is your opinion of this? Saint Alphonsus writes that this “Heaven” is fit only for animals. Do you really believe that this is the final goal of man? Not to enjoy the presence of God, Who alone would be sufficient for indescribable satisfaction for eternity, but to lay around in a seedy fleshpot like a scene taken from a XXX movie? Words cannot describe my detestation of this abomination.

the paradise will be the paradise , place of grace from God , no tiredness no sadness no hate in it .
it’s a place where i will like to be in it

1. How do you prove that Christ was not crucified, died, and resurrected?

i have no physical proofs but words of quran , may i have proofs that early christians had many stories about this , so it wasn’t the only story that he was crucified , died and resurrected throught first 300 years

 

[Tocra]

he is a prophet , then he get the authority from God directly
we believe that he was mentioned in the bible , but we believe that he is last of prophets because he himself said that not because the bible said it

corrupt of the thing dosn’t mean that whole of it is wrong , it just means that although it holds much of the truth but it contain errors and additions , it’s not the pure massage of jesus , it’s a collection of records from many people (known and known people ) in different times

and we use the bible in our discussion as a proofs against you ( as long as you believe it’s not corrupeted and it’s 100% true ) , not as a proofs for us

we believe that the comforter which jesus talked about is our prophet , not the holy ghost. beside their are verses which talking about jews waiting accomplish of three prophecies
1- john the babtist
2- the christ
3- the prophet

actually it wasn’t mentioned in quran that jesus is sinless or never sinned , it is not mentioned any sins about him either

we are not allowed to make any discriminations between prophets of God , beside i don’t think that level of holiness is measured by the type of miracles which was given to them

As far as the Jews are concerning, their faith meant believing in the Tawraat (original Torah) and following the way of Moosa (peace be upon him) until ‘Eesa came, after which whoever denied jesus /Eesa, was doomed. As far as the Christians are concerned, their faith meant believing in the Injeel (original Gospel) and following ‘Eesa; whoever did this was a believer whose faith was acceptable to Allaah, until Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came, after which whoever did not follow Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and denied him as a prophet, was doomed.

we have to go the details here , for example to knows what is that means to have many versions of it , what kind of diffrences in it , why did they standarized it , who and how and when ?
alot of details should to be discussed if you wanna to make comparisons between bible and quran

offcourse this isn’t the miracles which will we use to defense the truth , we defense the truth by logic and rational , we defense the truth by the facts
the miracle of our prophet is quran , you will find us always refere to it in our descussions . and as you can see the miracle of our relelgion between our hands and under the test all the time

the paradise will be the paradise , place of grace from God , no tiredness no sadness no hate in it .
it’s a place where i will like to be in it

i have no physical proofs but words of quran , may i have proofs that early christians had many stories about this , so it wasn’t the only story that he was crucified , died and resurrected throught first 300 years

Precisely, what I meant.

Now you see it, now you don’t.

Islam grabs everything and anything that fits its agenda, whether or not the thing is really valid for it, is another question that it doesn’t bother itself with. Anyone with spiritual sight will immediately identify spiritual serpentry.

A follower of Christ will know immediately what is going on.

.

 

[Sam_777]

1. **What miracles, ancient or modern, does Islam have to offer in defense of its truth? **Military might is not a miracle. Neither are animals reacting to the Mohammedan call to prayer (as I have seen on Youtube). I really doubt that fruit seeds are as well.

Most Islamic clerics agree that Muhammad had no miracles per (Quran 17:90-93):
“They say: "We shall not believe in thee, until thou cause a spring to gush forth for us from the earth,"Or (until) thou have a garden of date trees and vines, and cause rivers to gush forth in their midst, carrying abundant water,"Or thou cause the sky to fall in pieces, as thou sayest (will happen), against us, or thou bring Allah and the angels before (us) face to face; “Or thou have a house adorned with gold, or thou mount a ladder right into the skies. No, we shall not even believe in thy mounting until thou send down to us a book that we can read.” Say: “Glory to my Lord! am I aught but a man, a Messenger?””

وقالوا لن نومن لك حتى تـفجر لنا من الارض ينبوعا او تكون لك جنة من نخيل وعنب فتـفجر الانهار خلالها تـفجيرا او تسقط السماء كما زعمت علينا كسفا او تاتى بالله والملائكة قبيلا او يكون لك بيت من زخرف او ترقى فى السماء ولن نومن لرقيك حتى تنزل علينا كتـابا نقروه قل سبحان ربى هل كنت الا بشرا رسولا
​

 

[Greg_Petersen]

They claim affiliation to the jewish & christian faith for only 1 reason.

To lend historical credibility to their otherwise unknown **idol **(one of many hundreds in the ka’abah)

Strictly speaking, muslims cannot use the Bible because it speaks and prophesies against the islamic faith.** We see the classification of the Anti-Christ befitting the islamic faith**, we see the denial of muhammad’s prophethood in Luke 16:16. etc etc.

YET…if islam does not claim affiliation, how are they ever going to establish the religion for islam??? Like the buddhists? Like the Hindhus? And how are they able to accuse the former faiths of corruption and deserving of death (a key initiative for the foes of God). They cannot.

Its like someone going into your house and saying he’s your brother. Then after staying for a while, he accuses you of not being the real son of the house because the birthcertificate was corrupted and you got the name of the house owner wrong. Gives you a new unknown name - allah, and starts making sure you submit or pay penance.

Tocra, you are so wrong that I do not even know where to start. Please pick up a book on religion - one that preferably isn’t written by a right-wing evangelical leader.

It’s amazing the type of nonsense people spew about Islam these days.

A follower of Christ will know immediately what is going on.

And what exactly is going on?

Most Islamic clerics agree that Muhammad had no miracles per (Quran 17:90-93):

From what I’ve been taught, that Quranic passage is interpreted to mean that it is unreasonable to keep pestering Muhammad for a miracle when instead one should be listening to what he is saying.

According to the Hadith, Muhammad did perform miracles (or rather, God worked His miracles through Muhammad). These miracles include things like water flowing from Muhammad’s hands to slake the thirst of his companions when they were trapped in a valley by the pagans. Nothing on the scale of Moses splitting the sea, but still miracles nonetheless.

 

[Sam_777]

From what I’ve been taught, that Quranic passage is interpreted to mean that it is unreasonable to keep pestering Muhammad for a miracle when instead one should be listening to what he is saying.

According to the Hadith, Muhammad did perform miracles (or rather, God worked His miracles through Muhammad). These miracles include things like water flowing from Muhammad’s hands to slake the thirst of his companions when they were trapped in a valley by the pagans. Nothing on the scale of Moses splitting the sea, but still miracles nonetheless.

Firstly, welcome Greg to CAF…

Secondly, which hadiths you are speaking about (non authentic ?), if you have authentic references then post them otherwise those are all fake hadiths…

Thirdly, since you are new here, please tell us your Islamic background.

 

[Greg_Petersen]

Sam,

Thanks for having me here

Ok I couldnt find that one and I am feeling to lazy to go through Bukhari, but I managed to scrounged up this other authentic Hadith that have to do with him summoning water (this guy should have become a firefighter, eh?)

Anas ibn Malik said, ‘I saw the Messenger of Allah (saas) at the time of the ‘Asr prayer. People looked for water for wudu’ and could not find any, so the Messenger of Allah (saas) was brought some wudu’ water. He then placed his hand in the vessel and commanded the people to do wudu’ from it.’ He added, ‘I saw the water flowing from his fingers, and everyone, down to the last man, did wudu’ from it.’ (Muslim and al-Bukhari)

And then there’s this one:

On another occasion, Abu Ayyub had prepared enough food only for the Prophet (saas) and Abu Bakr. He reports that the Prophet (saas) told him, ‘Invite thirty of the Ansar nobles.’ He invited them and they ate and then left. Then he (saas) said, ‘Invite sixty more,’ and the same thing happened. Then he (saas) said, ‘Invite seventy more,’ and they ate their fill and still left some. None of them left without becoming a Muslim and giving homage. Abu Ayyub said that, in all, one hundred and eighty men ate from this food. (At-Tabarani and al-Bayhaqi)

Kinda like that thing Jesus pulled off, isn’t it? Maybe the two should get together and start a restaurant chain - I can see it now! “Jesus and Mo’s Diner”

Here’s another one:

*Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 56, Number 779:

Narrated by Abdullah:

Once we were with Allah’s Messenger (Prophet Mohammad) on a journey, and we ran short of water. He said, “Bring the water remaining with you.” The people brought a container which had little water left. He placed his hand in it and said, “Come to the blessed water, and the Blessing is from Allah.” I saw the water flowing from among the fingers of Allah’s Messenger, and no doubt, we heard the meal glorifying Allah, when it was being eaten (by him). *

There are a bunch of others, but most of them appear to be the same thing in different instances - summoning water, multiplying food, etc. There’s also some kind of weird ones about trees bowing to him and whatnot (also Saheeh Bukhari) but it’s gonna take too much space to post them.

My Islamic background is pretty simple - I’m just another convert. And no, I wasn’t Roman Catholic before embracing Islam

I’ve also had the privilege of living in Saudi Arabia (and no, not in Aramco) for almost 3 years, so I’m familiar with how a ‘Muslim society’ is supposed to function. And I can see you’re a fellow Saudi resident too?

 

[Sam_777]

Kinda like that thing Jesus pulled off, isn’t it? Maybe the two should get together and start a restaurant chain - I can see it now! “Jesus and Mo’s Diner”

No there is a big difference between the two, Jesus miracles were witnessed by many believers and non believers in addition to the multiple references, while the claimed miracles of Muhammed were witnessed by few Muslims only.

My Islamic background is pretty simple - I’m just another convert. And no, I wasn’t Roman Catholic before embracing Islam

So convert from secularism?

I’ve also had the privilege of living in Saudi Arabia (and no, not in Aramco) for almost 3 years, so I’m familiar with how a ‘Muslim society’ is supposed to function. And I can see you’re a fellow Saudi resident too?

You have lived here before or after converting to Islam?

 

[Greg_Petersen]

No there is a big difference between the two, Jesus miracles were witnessed by many believers and non believers in addition to the multiple references, while the claimed miracles of Muhammed were witnessed by few Muslims only.

Well in that food multiplying miracle I mentioned, there were ‘180 men’ who ate from that food - that hardly counts as a ‘few’ Muslims.
Also, I’d like to see where these eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ miracles are recorded? From what I have been taught in my religious studies courses at college, all we have are the 4 Canonical Gospels (which are of sketchy reliability) as well as several apocrypha which is not considered canonical by the Church.
No eye-witness accounts from what I’ve come across, though I’d be glad if you could provide me with some

So convert from secularism?

Secularism isn’t a religion; it’s the idea that the state and religion should be separate. You can be a devout believer of whatever faith you practice and still believe that your country should follow a secular model of government. I have a lot of Turkish friends who are devout Muslims but still don’t believe that Turkey should be an Islamic state.

But if you’re trying to say I was a ‘God hating atheist’ before I accepted Islam, the answer is no. I always considered myself to be an agnostic, though there were times I was angry with God.

You have lived here before or after converting to Islam?

Both, actually. When I first came to Saudi Arabia I wasn’t Muslim. I converted to Islam in college in America. Later came back and lived in Saudi Arabia (no, not for religious education).
So yeah, got to see Saudi Arabia from both Muslim and non-Muslim perspectives.

 

[PhanxicoXavier]

Sam,

Thanks for having me here

Ok I couldnt find that one and I am feeling to lazy to go through Bukhari, but I managed to scrounged up this other authentic Hadith that have to do with him summoning water (this guy should have become a firefighter, eh?)

Anas ibn Malik said, ‘I saw the Messenger of Allah (saas) at the time of the ‘Asr prayer. People looked for water for wudu’ and could not find any, so the Messenger of Allah (saas) was brought some wudu’ water. He then placed his hand in the vessel and commanded the people to do wudu’ from it.’ He added, ‘I saw the water flowing from his fingers, and everyone, down to the last man, did wudu’ from it.’ (Muslim and al-Bukhari)

And then there’s this one:

On another occasion, Abu Ayyub had prepared enough food only for the Prophet (saas) and Abu Bakr. He reports that the Prophet (saas) told him, ‘Invite thirty of the Ansar nobles.’ He invited them and they ate and then left. Then he (saas) said, ‘Invite sixty more,’ and the same thing happened. Then he (saas) said, ‘Invite seventy more,’ and they ate their fill and still left some. None of them left without becoming a Muslim and giving homage. Abu Ayyub said that, in all, one hundred and eighty men ate from this food. (At-Tabarani and al-Bayhaqi)

Kinda like that thing Jesus pulled off, isn’t it? Maybe the two should get together and start a restaurant chain - I can see it now! “Jesus and Mo’s Diner”

Here’s another one:

*Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 56, Number 779:

Narrated by Abdullah:

Once we were with Allah’s Messenger (Prophet Mohammad) on a journey, and we ran short of water. He said, “Bring the water remaining with you.” The people brought a container which had little water left. He placed his hand in it and said, “Come to the blessed water, and the Blessing is from Allah.” I saw the water flowing from among the fingers of Allah’s Messenger, and no doubt, we heard the meal glorifying Allah, when it was being eaten (by him). *

There are a bunch of others, but most of them appear to be the same thing in different instances - summoning water, multiplying food, etc. There’s also some kind of weird ones about trees bowing to him and whatnot (also Saheeh Bukhari) but it’s gonna take too much space to post them.

My Islamic background is pretty simple - I’m just another convert. And no, I wasn’t Roman Catholic before embracing Islam

I’ve also had the privilege of living in Saudi Arabia (and no, not in Aramco) for almost 3 years, so I’m familiar with how a ‘Muslim society’ is supposed to function. And I can see you’re a fellow Saudi resident too?

Thank you for your answer.

I find it reasonable to ask a member of what he perceives to be the true religion to offer supernatural evidence given by God to confirm the verity of his religion. In a sense, I did not intend to ask if there are miracles recorded in the Koran, but rather if throughout history there have been documented Muslim miracles. Especially between two men that believe in one God (both claim to believe in the God of Abraham) don’t you think that its reasonable to go beyond the often sterile realm of pure intellectual debate and ask about the supernatural evidences of your religion?

Elwill, thank you very much for clearing up the issue of salvation for Jews. That makes much more sense to me now.

If the entire Bible is not corrupt, how do you decide what is not corrupt and what is? My guess would be - whatever contradicts the Koran is corrupt, whatever doesn’t is not. However, this is opposite of the principles of historical analysis. It should be the other way around, as the Koran came after the Bible - the Koran should be judged using the Bible, not vice versa.

Please cite to me where Mohamet is in the Holy Bible.

 

[Greg_Petersen]

PhanxicoXavier,

I brought up miracles because I noticed that Sam had wrongly put forth the assertion that Muhammad did not perform miracles in post #6. In all honesty, I was not thinking about your question at the time

But if you’re asking for miracles recorded throughout history, you are treading on completely different grounds in my opinion. I’m one of the skeptics that believes that God only sends down His miracles on His prophets. Meaning, I personally (and you will find many more Muslims along with me) believe that your everyday miracle - whether it be a statue weeping or a Muslim Sufi saint being able to walk on water or an image of the Virgin Mary appearing on cheese toast or even trees perfectly resembling Arabic Muslim injunctions - are nothing more than coincidences, or nature being weird, or illusions/tricks, and explainable by science.

If you must know the truth, then yes, there are a LOT of Islamic ‘miracles’ in the modern day as well as throughout history being recorded and documented (even photographed these days), but I don’t place much trust in this stuff. I mean, yeah so Islam has modern day miracles. But then so do Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, and virtually every other religion out there.

I did not convert to Islam after seeing some Sufi saint levitate or a tree forming the word ‘Allah’ almost perfectly. They are little reminders of God, nothing more - not proofs in themselves.

If the entire Bible is not corrupt, how do you decide what is not corrupt and what is? My guess would be - whatever contradicts the Koran is corrupt, whatever doesn’t is not. However, this is opposite of the principles of historical analysis. It should be the other way around, as the Koran came after the Bible - the Koran should be judged using the Bible, not vice versa.

Please cite to me where Mohamet is in the Holy Bible.

The Bible is unbelievably sketchy and spotty when it comes to its reliability and historicity. Have you heard of the Synoptic problem in the NT? Or the Documentary Hypothesis of the OT? They teach this to every single Religious Studies student in college.
If you actually think that the Torah existing today is the EXACT one that was said/written by Moses, then you need to open a *real *history book, my friend.
The fact of the matter is the Bible in your hands today was changed and edited several times over thousands of years.

Remember, we only believe in the Torah (aka the 5 books), the Psalms of David, and the Gospel of Jesus (NOT the Gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, or whoever).
Of these 3, the Gospel of Jesus is non-existent and has disappeared; the Torah was written down centuries after Moses (during the time of Ezra) and has been changed like crazy (read the Documentary Hypothesis), and the Psalms of David have been modified as well.

I personally haven’t been able to find Muhammad (it’s not Mahomet) in the Bible.
Then again, I also have not been able to find any mention of Jesus’ coming as Messiah or as Son of God in the OT.
Did Jesus fulfill any of the Messianic prophecies? No. (And seriously think before you answer this question - don’t read meaning into Jewish scriptures like Christians tend to do)

I even read Isaiah on account of the fact that Matthew keeps referring back to it - funny thing is, if you actually read Isaiah instead of the little specially selected bytes in Matthew, you see that it could be referring to literally ANYBODY, from Muhammad to Buddha to Jesus to you-name-it.

For all the problems with accepting the Bible of today as the ‘original’ Bible - there are no such problems with the Quran and Saheeh Hadith. The Quran was written down during the Prophet’s time and for EVERY Saheeh Hadith there are multiple chains of transmission going back to the same source. This is one of the reasons Islam appealed to me - what is in your hands is actually what Muhammad said and what God said to Muhammad.

According to your logic, the OT should be judged according to the Babylonian epics and the Sumerian Flood story since history shows that the Israelites basically plagiarized from the Babylonians

 

[PhanxicoXavier]

PhanxicoXavier,

I brought up miracles because I noticed that Sam had wrongly put forth the assertion that Muhammad did not perform miracles in post #6. In all honesty, I was not thinking about your question at the time

But if you’re asking for miracles recorded throughout history, you are treading on completely different grounds in my opinion. I’m one of the skeptics that believes that God only sends down His miracles on His prophets. Meaning, I personally (and you will find many more Muslims along with me) believe that your everyday miracle - whether it be a statue weeping or a Muslim Sufi saint being able to walk on water or an image of the Virgin Mary appearing on cheese toast or even trees perfectly resembling Arabic Muslim injunctions - are nothing more than coincidences, or nature being weird, or illusions/tricks, and explainable by science.

**If you must know the truth, then yes, there are a LOT of Islamic ‘miracles’ in the modern day as well as throughout history being recorded and documented (even photographed these days), but I don’t place much trust in this stuff. I mean, yeah so Islam has modern day miracles. But then so do Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, and virtually every other religion out there.

I did not convert to Islam after seeing some Sufi saint levitate or a tree forming the word ‘Allah’ almost perfectly. They are little reminders of God, nothing more - not proofs in themselves.**

I’m not satisfied with this response. You’re blind if you don’t believe in miracles - not human invention or natural aberrations, but unexplainable miracles.

The Bible is unbelievably sketchy and spotty when it comes to its reliability and historicity. Have you heard of the Synoptic problem in the NT? Or the Documentary Hypothesis of the OT? They teach this to every single Religious Studies student in college.
If you actually think that the Torah existing today is the EXACT one that was said/written by Moses, then you need to open a *real *history book, my friend.
The fact of the matter is the Bible in your hands today was changed and edited several times over thousands of years.

Remember, we only believe in the Torah (aka the 5 books), the Psalms of David, and the Gospel of Jesus (NOT the Gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, or whoever).
Of these 3, the Gospel of Jesus is non-existent and has disappeared; the Torah was written down centuries after Moses (during the time of Ezra) and has been changed like crazy (read the Documentary Hypothesis), and the Psalms of David have been modified as well.

I’ve heard it all before…the Bible is this…the Bible is that… I could say the same thing about the Koran by looking up some fundamentalist Protestant site.

This is besides the point though, even if the Bible is false, you haven’t proved the verity of your religion yet. I didn’t ask Muslims to disprove Christianity, I’m asking you to defend Islam. (Edited)

I personally haven’t been able to find Muhammad (it’s not Mahomet) in the Bible.
Then again, I also have not been able to find any mention of Jesus’ coming as Messiah or as Son of God in the OT.
Did Jesus fulfill any of the Messianic prophecies? No. (And seriously think before you answer this question - don’t read meaning into Jewish scriptures like Christians tend to do)

I even read Isaiah on account of the fact that Matthew keeps referring back to it - funny thing is, if you actually read Isaiah instead of the little specially selected bytes in Matthew, you see that it could be referring to literally ANYBODY, from Muhammad to Buddha to Jesus to you-name-it.

For all the problems with accepting the Bible of today as the ‘original’ Bible - there are no such problems with the Quran and Saheeh Hadith. The Quran was written down during the Prophet’s time and for EVERY Saheeh Hadith there are multiple chains of transmission going back to the same source. This is one of the reasons Islam appealed to me - what is in your hands is actually what Muhammad said and what God said to Muhammad.

Perhaps you haven’t been looking hard enough then.
scripturecatholic.com/messianic_prophecies.html

and if Muhammad isn’t in the Bible, then where does he receive his legitimacy as a prophet? You are aware that all the prophets were descended from Isaac, and all of a sudden this son of Ishmael comes up and claims to be the SEAL OF THE PROPHETS?

According to your logic, the OT should be judged according to the Babylonian epics and the Sumerian Flood story since history shows that the Israelites basically plagiarized from the Babylonians

Um, no. The Old Testament makes no claim to being supported by earlier pagan scriptures. The Koran claims that the Torah the the Gospels are true (but corrupted) and that Islam is a logical progression from the Bible – therefore, it should be judged according to the Bible.

Oh really, I’ve also heard that about the Flood countless times. Has it ever come across that they both might be describing the same event (as countless world cultures do) because it actually happened?

 

[Greg_Petersen]

I’m not satisfied with this response. You’re blind if you don’t believe in miracles - not human invention or natural aberrations, but unexplainable miracles.

Define what you mean by ‘miracle’. If you mean a picture of the Virgin Mary appearing on a piece of French toast then NO I don’t believe in miracles like that, I call them hoaxes.

If you mean a miracle as in a dying child is saved after his family goes to a mosque and prays for his health and recovery and the child is saved despite doctor’s being baffled and defying conventional medical knowledge - then YES I believe in miracles like this. And there are more Muslim miracles like this than you can count. And these miracles, unlike the images of Mary or Jesus appearing on random food items, actually make people BELIEVE.

I’ve heard it all before…the Bible is this…the Bible is that… I could say the same thing about the Koran by looking up some fundy-Protestant site.

Except the only difference is that academic scholarship (you know, universities, colleges, archaeologists, etc.) actually support the fact that the Bible has been heavily changed, corrupted, modified, edited, and is a redaction of other earlier texts in parts.
These same academic institutes cannot say the same about the Quran.

Academic scholarship/Universities/Research institues >>>> ‘some fundy-Protestant site’

Of course, you’re still in high school so you have not been exposed to any of this higher research. So I guess I can’t blame you for your ignorance there.

This is besides the point though, even if the Bible is false, you haven’t proved the verity of your religion yet. I didn’t ask Muslims to disprove Christianity, I’m asking you to defend Mohammendanism.

:tsktsk: It’s called Islam. Calling it Mohammedanism is like me calling you a ‘Crossworshipper’.

and if Mahomet isn’t in the Bible, then where does he receive his legitimacy as a prophet? You are aware that all the prophets were descended from Isaac, and all of a sudden this son of Ishmael comes up and claims to be the SEAL OF THE PROPHETS?

Muhammad isn’t in the Bible because it has been corrupted (this is a historical fact supported by volumes of academic research - please don’t deny this, at least. I’d hate for you to look like an idiot here)

Muslims don’t believe that all the Prophets were descended from Isaac. We believe that God sent prophets to EVERY nation, from the Aztecs to the Japanese to the Norse. What kind of a cruel God only reveals Himself to a select bunch of Middle Eastern goat herders and lets the other 99% of humanity wallow in ignorance for thousands of years?
Not Our God.

And let’s not forget, as God says in the Koran - the Israelites have already lost the favor of their Lord for attempting to kill Jesus, among other things. God tells them that now He is raising up a new Chosen People - one that will ‘inherit’ Israel, so to say.
You don’t just walk away from attempting to kill a Messiah like that

Um, no. The Old Testament makes no claim to being supported by earlier pagan scriptures. The Koran claims that the Torah the the Gospels are true (but corrupted) and that Islam is a logical progression from the Bible – therefore, it should be judged according to the Bible.

The ‘Bible’ that the Koran mentions consists of the Torah and the Psalms, NOT the New Testament (which is essentially a fabrication by mysterious men claiming to be Jesus’ disciples). And the theology of the Torah and Psalms (One Unified God) is exactly the same as the theology of the Koran (One Unified God).
Whereas the New Testament (Christianity) actually manages to break off and contradict the Old Testament with its own theology (3 gods masquerading as ‘one’).

So according to the Koran, the theology of the Koran is judged true by the Torah whereas the theology of the NT is basically written of as the Jewish heresy it was.

In other words, even the corrupted Torah manages to confirm the Unitarian Koran but deny the Trinitarian NT.

Oh really, I’ve also heard that about the Flood countless times. Has it ever come across that they both might be describing the same event (as countless world cultures do) because it actually happened?

There’s only one problem with that - the Hebrew Biblical account of the Flood was written CENTURIES AFTER the Babylonians wrote their account down. Even worse, the Hebrews only wrote it down and first mentioned it AFTER the Babylonian exile when the Jews were heavily exposed to Babylonian culture. So yeah, they plagiarized it. Unless of course there were TWO floods and hence TWO Noahs.

Perhaps you haven’t been looking hard enough then.
scripturecatholic.com/messianic_prophecies.html

Since your comparisons to the OT are based off the Canonical Gospels, which have already been proved by historians to NOT have been accurate OR eyewitness accounts of the life of Jesus, it is invalid.

And even worse, assuming the Gospels are the ‘true eyewitness account’ of his life, then he still didn’t drive out the Romans, establish a Jewish kingdom, reign in Jerusalem, etc.

 

[PhanxicoXavier]

Miracle - the miraculous imprinting of the image of the Blessed Virgin Mary on the cloak of St. Juan Diego, which can still be seen today.

You are not answering any of my questions. As I have said, this is not about Christianity, but Islam. I asked for Muslims to defend Islam, not turn around and attack Christianity. If you want to discuss the supposed errors of Christianity and the Sacred Scriptures, please refer to the “Traditional Catholicism” section or another Catholic forum.

Based on the few questions that I asked (and I have many more) what do you have to offer in defense of your religion?

 

[Greg_Petersen]

Miracle - the miraculous imprinting of the image of the Blessed Virgin Mary on the cloak of St. Juan Diego, which can still be seen today.

Ah yes, some Mexican guy drawing a picture of the Virgin Mary on his cloak, claiming it was a ‘miracle’, and displaying it for the world to see. What a miracle!
Let me ask you this: were there any witnesses when this picture magically appeared onto the cloth? Did anyone see the image instantly transfix itself with their own eyes?
Is it possible the cloth was changed when Diego took it off? Of course.
Could they all be lying or maybe victims of a horrible prank? Possibly.
The whole thing is a hoax, in my opinion.
How stupid do you think the rest of the world is? Honestly?
This is the age of SCIENCE. The 13th century is gone, amigo.
I can see now why the Protestants keep ragging on the Catholics all the time. It’s because of guys like you that turn the whole faith into a laughingstock.

Based on the few questions that I asked (and I have many more) what do you have to offer in defense of your religion?

1. Islam is the ONLY ancient religion that has its holy book unchanged from the beginning. This is a proven historical fact. The Quran was written down during Muhammad’s time and thousands of Muhammad’s disciples memorized it by heart and passed it down orally. Other ancient religions follow changed, corrupted texts.
2. Unlike Hinduism or Christianity, Islam believes in ONE UNIFIED WHOLE GOD, just like the Prophets of old like Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jeremiah, etc.
3. Muhammad has the authority to say he is the Seal of the Prophets because God gave him that authority. Who are you to question that authority based on a corrupted scripture? Muhammad demonstrated this with numerous miracles and wise, noble, and gentle leadership. He was a righteous and virtuous king in every sense of the word.
4. In essence, Islam doesn’t say anything ‘new’, like Christianity. We follow the religion of our father, Abraham. Simple and pure. We worship one God and we follow His Law.
5. There IS proof that Jesus prophesied Muhammad. During his early years, many Christian Ebionite monks told Muhammad that he was the ‘promised one’ that they had been told about. The Ebionites were a non-Trinitarian sect of Christianity that believed Jesus was a man, not God. They likely kept Jesus’ true message in their hearts.
6. The Quran is Muhammad’s greatest miracle and proof that he is the final prophet. Although he was illiterate and untrained in rhetoric and literature, the Quran is universally considered to be the greatest piece of literature ever to come out of the Middle East. To this date, nothing has matched it. This proves the Quran was not Muhammad’s word, but God’s.
7. The Torah’s theology confirms the Quran’s theology of there only being one unified God as opposed to a triune God.
8. Jesus (according to the Gospels) maintained a moral lifestyle while devoid of power. Muhammad maintained a just lifestyle and ruled justly despite having been given immense power (‘the true test of a man’s character is how he behaves when given power’)
9. Muhammad’s injunction to stop racial discrimination “a white man is not superior to a black man and a black man is not superior to a white man” led to the Islamic civilization progressing with a much higher level of racial equality than the Christian West.
10. Islam is the religion OF Jesus, not a religion ABOUT Jesus.
11. Millions of people convert from Hinduism, Christianity, Atheism, and other religions to Islam, NOT the other way around.

There’s more and I could go on but I think this will suffice for now.
You really should read up more about Islam.

 

[bosnian_muslim]

Hinduism has bigger “miracles” then catholicism(among many others,the so called milk miracle,read about it in google),yet you dont believe in hindusim,or do you?

most of the miracles are hoax,the few are the work of the jinn(demons)…true miracles come only from islam,And i know about many islamic miracles…we just dont need them to believe,and thats why we dont put them on every thread here

 

[elwill]

Elwill, thank you very much for clearing up the issue of salvation for Jews. That makes much more sense to me now.

you are wellcome

If the entire Bible is not corrupt, how do you decide what is not corrupt and what is? My guess would be - whatever contradicts the Koran is corrupt, whatever doesn’t is not. However, this is opposite of the principles of historical analysis. It should be the other way around, as the Koran came after the Bible - the Koran should be judged using the Bible, not vice versa.

i think that your reasonable is correct , but actually you missed some factors which we as muslims take under considerations , i will point it out for you

firstly quran said that Injeel was revealed to jesus (pbuh) , quran not talking about the books which revealed to john or luke or any others

so from our point of view , we have one book written by group of people (most of them are unkown) and jesus never read it because it was written after him
and the second book is from God directly according to our beliefs , that’s why it’s reasonable for us to trust what was written by God

secondly , i can’t depend in historical analysis because i don’t believe that mohammed (pbuh) read the gospels before his prophethood , Gospels wasn’t his reference

thirdly , if you will depend on historical analysis , then allows me to involve all sects and all books which written about jesus and before quran , your beliefs about jesus wasn’t the only version in the first 300 years , do you know that ?

Please cite to me where Mohamet is in the Holy Bible.

And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No."

John 1:19-21

We notice that there are three distinct prophecies here: 1) Elias, 2) Jesus, 3) That prophet. The Jews were not waiting for two prophecies, but three. This can be further clarified by reading John:

"And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be:

a) not that Christ,

b) nor Elias,

c) neither that prophet?"

John 1:25

 

[schaick]

That is correct otherwise they are attacked physically.

Remember the book written about the satanic verses the author has to have body guards, muslims have threatened to kill him.

The Quran simply has not undergone critical analysis like the Holy Bible has.

There is proof that the Quran was changed over time-grew into what it is today. We know there are varies hadith talking about missing verses and chapters in the Quran that used to be much longer.

The earliest Quranic manuscripts discovered in the Sana’a mosque in Yemen not only differ from the standard version, but disagree amongst themselves.

abrahamic-faith.com/shamoun/compilation%20of%20the%20quran.html

Interesting that the Bible we have today is the Bible from 300AD.

We have writtings from the early Church Fathers students of the eyewitnesses that quote and reference the Gospel.

biblefacts.org/history/oldtext.html
*Tertullian stated that by 150 A.D., the Church in Rome had compiled a list of the New Testament books matching our list of today.

We have 32,000 quotes from before 325 AD, from Irenaeus (182-188 AD), Justin Martyr (before 150 AD), Polycarp (107 AD), Ignatius (100), Clement (96 AD) and many other second and third century fathers. All but eleven verses of the New Testament could be reconstructed through their writings alone*.

bible-researcher.com/isbetext02.html
Sir William M. Ramsay goes so far as to claim that “antecedent probability founded on the general character of personal and contemporary Greek of Greek-Asiatic society” would indicate “that the first Christian account of the circumstances connected with the death of Jesus must be presumed to have been written in the year when Jesus died” (Letters to the Seven Churches, 7). W. M. Flinders Petrie argues to the same end and says: “Some generally accepted Gospels must have been in circulation before 60 AD. The mass of briefer records and Logia which the habits and culture of that age would produce must have been welded together within 10 or 20 years by the external necessities” (The Growth of the Gospels, 7).