Questions for Muslims

[Ali_Khan]

Love it how Muslims always bring up the inquisition when they run out of arguments. The problem is that Christians have never claimed to be perfect. Christ was perfect and we should strive to be more like Him, but this is impossible and we do make mistakes.

Read my original comment - it was in response to an assertion that Muhammad does not hold up to the moral standards of the 15th century, the 15th century being the most famous in Muslim-Catholic relations for being the start of the Inquisition.

And he also slaughtered hundreds of Jews, raped and killed women, raided caravans, etc…

Slaughter hundreds of Jews → the decision to slaughter them was not his, but decided by an arbitrator (Sa’ad ibn Jabal) who the Jews (who had committed treason) themselves chose to decide their fate rather than relying on Muhammad’s judgment.
Muhammad thus had to carry out the arbitrator’s decision.
Oh, and show me one country on Earth where treason is not punishable by death.

Raped → Muhammad never raped a woman, nor did he have sex outside of wedlock.

Raided caravans → raided Meccan caravans in RESPONSE to Meccan attempts to assassinate him, Meccan raids on Medina, and Meccan illegal seizure of Muslim property.

No, He wouldn’t have. If you knew anything about Christianity and the NT, you would know that the reason why the Pharisees did not like Him was because He refused to take up a sword and fight the Roman occupants. Jesus’ message was about forgiveness, love, and salvation. Muhammed’s message was about power, wealth, and women.

The pagans offered Muhammad kingship of Mecca (the most powerful city of Arabia), marriage to the most beautiful women of Arabia, and enough wealth to make him the richest of all the Arabs, in order to bribe him to stop preaching his faith.
Muhammad turned them down.
Most of his wives he married for political reasons - to ally himself with the different tribes. In those days, the only way to ally yourself with other families and tribes was through marriage.
Others were poor elderly widows he married in order to give them security and support in a rapidly changing and violent world.

Black and white might be equal according to Muhammad (although when looking at the racism in KSA that doesn’t seem quite true), but men and women certainly aren’t. In Islam the woman is nothing more than a slave.

Islam, unlike Christianity, explicitly gave women the right to own property, inherit property, work outside their homes, and file for divorce. Muhammad stated that men and women are equal and that both husbands and wives ‘have rights upon one another’.
And stop comparing Islam with the actions of Muslim countries today or in the past. Muslims aren’t perfect, Allah and His Religion is.

And as for Jesus and slavery: like I said above, He did not want a bloody uprising. If you follow His message though you can clearly see that slavery is wrong.

You can twist this however you like, but the fact remains that he did NOT explicitly prohibit slavery. If he had, then Christians would never have had the phenomenon of slavery in America and other parts of the West.

 

[scipio337]

I’ve asked this in other threads, Ali, but I hope you answer.

Should nations be run under Shari’a, with limitations on other faiths, death penalty for public apostacy/blasphemy?

 

[koshakoji]

I’ve asked this in other threads, Ali, but I hope you answer.

Should nations be run under Shari’a, with limitations on other faiths, death penalty for public apostacy/blasphemy?

I have a feeling he is not going to answer this…
Ali, do you think I should be killed?

 

[Ali_Khan]

I dunno, being raised from the dead would probably qualify. If you don’t believe in the authenticity of the New Testament, I could see your point, but to claim there are no “eyewitness” accounts therein, is false.

Again, Jesus’ resurrection is part of the New Testament, not some universally accepted book on scientific history.

So treating non-Muslims different is “justified”??? That’s pretty twisted.

Read what I said - they were EXEMPT from conscription and Zakat taxes. If you think exemption from conscription is no big deal, think again. Back then, war was always there. If you’re in the army, you’re gonna be in a fight, and you’re gonna lose some limbs or worse.
They had it just as good as the Muslims, if not better.

In fact, during the Ottoman Tanzimat period in the 19th century, non-Muslims actually protested when the government tried to make them just like the Muslims and abolish the dhimmi system. They did not want to be conscripted.

See above. Episodic, not DOCTRINAL. See the Pact of Umar.

Hate to break it to you, but most of the spread of Catholicism and its quality of being retained in an area is due to brutal ‘episodes’ like the one I mentioned.
The Doctrine is peaceful, but apparently Christians have never followed the doctrine, ever, if history books are telling the truth.

And the Pact of Umar is NOT doctrine. It’s not part of the Quran nor is it a saying of Muhammad.

The Old Coveneant was a Covenant of the LAW, written in Stone. The New Covenant was a covenant of the SPIRIT, written in Christ’s blood. I can’t justify murdering people for the crime of “insulting” a faith, under any circumstances,

He didn’t kill people for ‘insulting the faith’. He executed them rightly under the law for treason and armed revolt against their government, or for murder, or for rape.

 

[Ali_Khan]

I’ve asked this in other threads, Ali, but I hope you answer.

Should nations be run under Shari’a, with limitations on other faiths, death penalty for public apostacy/blasphemy?

ONLY a Muslim nation can be run under Sharia. Nations which are not predominantly Muslim, like America, for example, should NOT run under Sharia.

A Muslim state that adopts the Shariah and complies with it in all levels becomes an Islamic State.

There is no death penalty for blasphemy, as far as I know.

Ali, do you think I should be killed?

No. I think you should educate yourself on Islam from source documents (the Quran, Hadith) rather than reading what some anti-Islam bigots have to say these days.

Do you think I should be burned at the stake for denying Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior?

 

[Monotheist]

The Aramaic for God is Eloi. Again you’re wrong

Actually its Elohim or Eloh

But that has nothing to do with christians since christians do not worship the same God as the muslims and jews do

 

[jakasaki]

I’ve asked this in other threads, Ali, but I hope you answer.

Should nations be run under Shari’a, with limitations on other faiths, death penalty for public apostacy/blasphemy?

**Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 84:

Dealing with Apostates **

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:

Narrated 'Ikrima:

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them.

The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’

**I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, ‘Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.’" **

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:

Narrated Abu Burda:

Abu Musa said, “I came to the Prophet along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash’ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah’s Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet said, 'O Abu Musa (O ‘Abdullah bin Qais!).’ I said, ‘By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.’ As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or ‘Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.’” The Prophet then sent Mu’adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu’adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu’adh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Muisa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Muisa requested Mu’adh to sit down but Mu’adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, “Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, ‘I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.’”

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 64:

Narrated 'Ali:

Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah’s Apostle, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you (not a Hadith) then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) **and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.” **

 

[Ali_Khan]

Actually its Elohim or Eloh

You’re both wrong . It’s pronounced AaLah. (According to the Peshitta Online Aramaic Dictionary)

But that has nothing to do with christians since christians do not worship the same God as the muslims and jews do

Exactly.

 

[scipio337]

ONLY a Muslim nation can be run under Sharia. Nations which are not predominantly Muslim, like America, for example, should NOT run under Sharia.

A Muslim state that adopts the Shariah and complies with it in all levels becomes an Islamic State.

There is no death penalty for blasphemy, as far as I know.

No. I think you should educate yourself on Islam from source documents (the Quran, Hadith) rather than reading what some anti-Islam bigots have to say these days.

Do you think I should be burned at the stake for denying Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior?

Of course, I don’t think that, and neither did Christ. That is not a part of Christian beliefs, and anyone who did so was a murderer.

I believe the sunnah don’t call for it the death but the hadiths do. I think in the Hanafi school of jurisprudence, blasphemy is punishable by death.

So, is this your way of saying an apostate should be killed (for public or private apostacy), in a Muslim state, run as an “Islamic State”?

 

[koshakoji]

There is no death penalty for blasphemy, as far as I know.

But you believe that there should be the death penalty for apostasy, right?

No. I think you should educate yourself on Islam from source documents (the Quran, Hadith) rather than reading what some anti-Islam bigots have to say these days.

I did. I read the Qur’an, Bukhari, and other Islam-related material. Went to jumu’ah, fasted during Ramadan, etc.
When I went to Mass, I realized that Islam was full of hate and falsehoods. Now you think that I should be killed.

Do you think I should be burned at the stake for denying Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior?

Of course not. But I still think you should try to attend Mass once

 

[scipio337]

Actually its Elohim or Eloh

But that has nothing to do with christians since christians do not worship the same God as the muslims and jews do

That’s debatable.

 

[Monotheist]

You’re both wrong . It’s pronounced AaLah. (According to the Peshitta Online Aramaic Dictionary)

Exactly.

OK,maybe so

 

[Monotheist]

That’s debatable.

NO not really

 

[scipio337]

NO not really

So you’ve studied Aramaic? I haven’t but my Koine isn’t too bad.

You know the importance of names in Judaism? I haven’t found an Arabic translation of “I am” in the Qu’ran. Allah has 99 names, which are more like attributes, but none of them simply constitute “being”.

Perhaps you can chime in on the death penalty for apostacy?

 

[Ali_Khan]

So you’ve studied Aramaic? I haven’t but my Koine isn’t too bad.

You know the importance of names in Judaism? I haven’t found an Arabic translation of “I am” in the Qu’ran. Allah has 99 names, which are more like attributes, but none of them simply constitute “being”.

I love how Christians keep bringing up Judaism when they violate it’s core teachings

‘I am’? Let me tell you something: it is grammatically IMPOSSIBLE to say the phrase “I am” in Arabic or Aramaic.

They don’t have a ‘to be’ verb in the present tense - hence the only thing you could say in Arabic or Aramaic is “I” or “Me” (designated by ‘ana’ in both tongues).

This is one of the reasons which caused me doubt the New Testament even more - when Jesus (an Aramaic speaker) said “I am”. Unless of course, Jesus said that specific phrase in Greek. But that’s not specified.
Or maybe he just said “Me” or “I” (ana) and people read meaning into it and said “I am”.

So your argument is flawed. It’s kind of like saying “Why didn’t Allah help Muhammad win that basketball game?” when the sport didn’t even exist back then.

Perhaps you can chime in on the death penalty for apostacy?

You keep bringing this up AGAIN and AGAIN, so I will clarify it with the best of my knowledge.

Apostasy is only punishable by death by an ISLAMIC (not Muslim) state and only in cases where the apostasy is public.

 

[koshakoji]

Apostasy is only punishable by death by an ISLAMIC (not Muslim) state and only in cases where the apostasy is public.

Semantics. What about all those Muslims who were crying for two certain girls’ deaths last fall when these girls (both prominent YouTubers, I am sure you know who I am talking about) left Islam?

 

[Monotheist]

Semantics. What about all those Muslims who were crying for two certain girls’ deaths last fall when these girls (both prominent YouTubers, I am sure you know who I am talking about) left Islam?

You should know that today there is no TRUE sharia country,there are only muslim countries that claim to follow sharia,but moslty its all about the corrupted leaders who place whatever that fits them into “sharia”.So an islamic state doesnt exist since the fall of the ottoman empire

 

[scipio337]

…

You keep bringing this up AGAIN and AGAIN, so I will clarify it with the best of my knowledge.

Apostasy is only punishable by death by an ISLAMIC (not Muslim) state and only in cases where the apostasy is public.

I keep bringing it up again and again because I find the practice, or even justification to be abhorrent, and not of God.

It is one of the things that leads me to not believe Islam.

 

[famdigy]

I keep bringing it up again and again because I find the practice, or even justification to be abhorrent, and not of God.

It is one of the things that leads me to not believe Islam.

Scipio,

Some people are also equally abhorred that capital punishment is still implemented, or that the definition for treason in England still includes non-political or military matters like polluting the royal bloodline, and until 1998 it was a crime punishable by death under the Treason Act.

In Islam, Apostasy is equal to treason and is not limited to political or military matters. In the Islamic order of sacredness, Allah, then the Prophet, and then the Qur’ãn occupy the highest positions. Tawhid, and Prophethood form the constitution of Islam. Just as upholding and protecting the constitution of a country is sign of patriotism, and undermining it is a form of treason - in the same way open rejection of the fundamental beliefs of Islam by a Muslim is an act of treason. Apostasy, i.e., the public declaration of rejecting the fundamentals of Islam, has also negative influence on the Muslim society; it’s a source of fitna, public upheaval & anarchy. And that is why Islam has prescribed harsh punishment for it.

An apostate can be of two types:

1. a person who is born of a Muslim parent and then he rejects Islam. The person has apostates from the faith in which he was born.
2. a person who converted to Islam and then later on he rejects Islam

The death penalty for apostasy is only applicable in case of apostasy by men; in case of women, the punishment is not death but life imprisonment. And if such a woman repents, then her repentance is accepted and the punishment is lifted.

 

[Justin1982]

You’re both wrong . It’s pronounced AaLah. (According to the Peshitta Online Aramaic Dictionary)

Exactly.

I think you are all missing the point because Jesus taught us to call God our Father, this may ring a bell to the Christians and regardless of what the Aramaic translation of God is Father is Aba is it not?