Questions for Muslims

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George_Waters

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In another post gurrato alaien offered to answer any questions I had about Islam.

All of my questions are fairly simple and should be able to be answered without pages and pages of explanation or long lists of quotes.

I would kindly ask that anyone who wishes to post on this thread, and I encourage everyone to do so, to please keep the question firmly in mind and to please help this thread stay on track. Once I believe that the question has been sufficiently or at least honestly answered I will post another question.

gurrato alaien, I appreciate your willingness to attempt to answer my questions.
  1. If images of the prophet Mohammed are forbidden by Islam as has been recently claimed by many Muslims due to the Danish cartoon controversy then why are there hundreds of images of Mohammed created by Muslims throughout the centuries and displayed in museums in Muslim countries?
 
🙂 Hi George,

How are you? I hope you do not mind my answering of your question.

First off George, not only have I usually seen you as being sincere in your questions, but you have, most often, seemed to think out and rationalize your questions before asking them. So I am a bit surprised that you yourself do not already know this answer.

Answer
Sadly, there’s a HUGE difference between the laws of Islaam and the laws of Muslim countries. Just because a country is titled a “Muslim country” does not automatically imply that the country adheres perfectly to Islaamic law. Rather, as we have all seen, many “Islaamic countries” completely OPPOSE Islaamic law.

And similarly George, statistically, America is a Christian country. Our forefathers founded America as “a nation under God.” However, as you will surely agree, there is a HUGE difference between Catholic teachings and the laws that are often passed in this country. And there is a HUGE difference between Catholic teachings and the actions of the individual “Catholics” (once a year Catholics) that reside in this country.

So, although the Islaamic teachings are very clear on the prohibition of images, especially those of the prophets, there have always been, and most likely will always be, people who will not follow Islaamic law and will do things that oppose the religion of God, and Islaam is free from the actions of those individuals.

I hope this satisfactorily answers question #1.

Thanks for the question George.

Peace.

Jonathan
 
jcaz,

I certainly do not mind you answering any of my questions. You have always been honest in your responses to me and I appreciate that.

I have thought this question out and came up with a couple of different possible answers. The first possibility I came to was that images of Mohammed are indeed forbidden by Islam. If this is the case those claiming to protest because images of the prophet were created are simply ignorant of the numerous images displayed in their own countries or are intentionally ignoring them because their real issue is that some of the Danish cartoons were insulting to Mohammed.

The second possibility is that images are not expressly forbidden and that reactionaries are simply manipulating the situation to add credence to their protest and are using the cartoons as an excuse to demonstrate.

Based on your answer I am assuming the first to be the case; that some of those protesting are ignorant of their own national art and some are intentionally ignoring certain artworks and protesting not so much that images were created of Mohammed, but that some of the images were insulting to him.

The former group should look to their own nation before protesting the actions of citizens of other nations and the second group needs to be honest with themselves and non-Muslim and state that their real issue is the nature of the cartoons.

I am confident some protesters were in a third category of those who were protesting that images were created and that some of the cartoons were derogatory to the prophet.

Would you say the fourth paragraph to be an accurate answer to my question?

Thanks Jonathan!
 
George Waters:
Would you say the fourth paragraph to be an accurate answer to my question?
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Hi George,

I would say my reply was an accurate answer to your original question:
So, although the Islaamic teachings are very clear on the prohibition of images, especially those of the prophets, there have always been, and most likely will always be, people who will not follow Islaamic law and will do things that oppose the religion of God, and Islaam is free from the actions of those individuals.
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Your question assumed that images are prohibited in Islaam (and they are), and then based on this assumption, you asked, “why are there hundreds of images of Mohammed created by Muslims throughout the centuries and displayed in museums in Muslim countries?”

I feel my answer was accurate. It is similar to saying, assuming child molestation is wrong according to Catholocism, “why are there so many priests who molest children?” And surely George, your answer to this would be similar to my answer to your question. There is often a HUGE difference between the rules of a religion and the actions of its followers.

Now, it does seem that you either (a) meant something else by your original question, or (b) are asking a follow-up question. Because it seems as if you are now asking why these Muslims who are protesting these cartoons are not also protesting the images of Muhammad that have been produced throughout the centuries, in supposedly “Muslim” countries.

To that question, I cannot speak for the actions and the thought processes of these protestors. I further cannot speak about whether or not there has been protests against the images you speak about over the centuries. I do know of several examples, one being a well-known Muslim film called “The Message”, where Muslims protested the way Muhammad, peace be upon him, was “depicted” in the film. And this was a Muslim film made by Muslims.

So George, I think part of your reasoning is that “hey, these guys have not or are not protesting the other images, why protest these?”

But if you think about it, that reasoning has the flaw of, how do you know the other images have not been protested? Seriously. Surely you do not assume that our media covers every little story like that. And surely George, you are also smart enough to realize that the media loves to cover stories such as this one, where the Muslims are protesting these cartoons.

But back to my point at the beginning of this post, even if i assume that the other images have never been protested against, again, I still cannot answer regarding the thought-process of these people, and you surely understand that. Are they ignorant of the other images? Are they aware of them but don’t care? Is it because the other images are not insulting? These are all valid questions George. But they are not questions that you or I know factual answers to. I can only go on the facts.

Peace.

Jonathan
 
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lukechap6:
Where can I see images of Muhammed produced by Muslims?
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i personally have this link:

zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/
 
George Waters:
In another post gurrato alaien offered to answer any questions I had about Islam.

All of my questions are fairly simple and should be able to be answered without pages and pages of explanation or long lists of quotes.

I would kindly ask that anyone who wishes to post on this thread, and I encourage everyone to do so, to please keep the question firmly in mind and to please help this thread stay on track. Once I believe that the question has been sufficiently or at least honestly answered I will post another question.

gurrato alaien, I appreciate your willingness to attempt to answer my questions.
  1. If images of the prophet Mohammed are forbidden by Islam as has been recently claimed by many Muslims due to the Danish cartoon controversy then why are there hundreds of images of Mohammed created by Muslims throughout the centuries and displayed in museums in Muslim countries?
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Peace

Dear brother,

Unlike Christians, Muslims don’t depict images of holy figures especially for prophets including prophet Jesus and prophet Muhammad pbut.
Its prohibited in Islam

Also I haven’t read nor ever I heard any Muslim do this and if he do this, then he is not True Muslim.

Actually this acts attribute to Christians. They depict images of holy figures such as Jesus, Mary, saints, and other prophets and use those images to direct their worship. I regard this as idolatry, and also as disregarding the second of the ten commandments:

“You shall have no other gods besides Me…Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above…”

Hope this answered your Question

Peace.
 
George Waters:
jcaz,

I certainly do not mind you answering any of my questions. You have always been honest in your responses to me and I appreciate that.

I have thought this question out and came up with a couple of different possible answers. The first possibility I came to was that images of Mohammed are indeed forbidden by Islam. If this is the case those claiming to protest because images of the prophet were created are simply ignorant of the numerous images displayed in their own countries or are intentionally ignoring them because their real issue is that some of the Danish cartoons were insulting to Mohammed.

The second possibility is that images are not expressly forbidden and that reactionaries are simply manipulating the situation to add credence to their protest and are using the cartoons as an excuse to demonstrate.

Based on your answer I am assuming the first to be the case; that some of those protesting are ignorant of their own national art and some are intentionally ignoring certain artworks and protesting not so much that images were created of Mohammed, but that some of the images were insulting to him.

The former group should look to their own nation before protesting the actions of citizens of other nations and the second group needs to be honest with themselves and non-Muslim and state that their real issue is the nature of the cartoons.

I am confident some protesters were in a third category of those who were protesting that images were created and that some of the cartoons were derogatory to the prophet.

Would you say the fourth paragraph to be an accurate answer to my question?

Thanks Jonathan!
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Actually even depicting Prophets without insulting is forbidden in Islam so what if these images are insulted the prophets it’s very shameful for those who do it.
And that is why there are many protesting in Islamic country, also like brother JCAZ said
If an Islamic country do this that doesn’t mean its not forbidden because in nowadays there is no any country represent Islamic state ruled by sharea

Peace.
 
gurrato alaien:
Peace

Dear brother,

Unlike Christians, Muslims don’t depict images of holy figures especially for prophets including prophet Jesus and prophet Muhammad pbut.
Its prohibited in Islam

Also I haven’t read nor ever I heard any Muslim do this and if he do this, then he is not True Muslim.

Actually this acts attribute to Christians. They depict images of holy figures such as Jesus, Mary, saints, and other prophets and use those images to direct their worship. I regard this as idolatry, and also as disregarding the second of the ten commandments:

“You shall have no other gods besides Me…Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above…”

Hope this answered your Question

Peace.
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Gurrato, the Jews themselves had carved angels (heavenly beings)on their ark of the Covenant and in the Temple itself. How does that reconcile with the Muslim interpretation of this command?

Besides which, why is this prohibition extended to human beings such as the prophets? Obviously it doesn’t apply to other deceased people, and the prophets may have been somewhat special but aren’t divine surely. Why apply this prohibition to them then?
 
George Waters:
  1. If images of the prophet Mohammed are forbidden by Islam as has been recently claimed by many Muslims due to the Danish cartoon controversy then why are there hundreds of images of Mohammed created by Muslims throughout the centuries and displayed in museums in Muslim countries?
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Yes Dear George, in Islam images/statues of any living creature is not allowed since the days of the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH).

As such in the history of pious Muslims, those who were artists, avoid indulging in making images or fabricating any statue of not just Prophets but any living creature.

Some ill-informed Muslims or so-called lip-service Muslims may have done un-Islamic things but that is not what Islam teaches because Islam is what is mentioned in the Qur’an and what the authentic Sunnah of our last Parophet of God (PBUH) teaches. And a Muslim is supposed to follow what these two foundational sources teach and not what is found in some museums or what some so-called “Muslim” countries are doing.

As to your Holy Bible in this regard, I will cite one verse from the Pentateuch:

Deuteronomy 7:26
Neither shalt thou bring any thing of the idol into thy house, lest thou become an anathema, like it.
Thou shalt detest it as dung, and shalt utterly abhor it as uncleanness and filth, because it is an anathema.

I wish the whole Christandom had hearken/listened to atleast this commandment of Holy Torah’s God and kept clean their Churches from all sorts of meaningless images/statues.

It is sad to see that now Christiandom has various versions of Jesus and his mother, from Chinese, and African to white European with blue eyes and blond hair. But the irony is European version of Jesus/Mary is very dominant when the fact of the matter is Jesus/Mary were dark skin Jewish-middle-eastern and not gentiles. All Europeans are gentiles.
 
I always remember mr. tuquoque. :). Last time Justice now new name Freedom. Viva OT!
 
Cyber Knight:
I always remember mr. tuquoque. :). Last time Justice now new name Freedom. Viva OT!
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hehe

anyway, the verse quoted has been explained…it is forbidden to make a statue and worship it per se (idolatory) as when they made a calf (?)…other than that it is not prohibited as explained before…
CCC 2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim
 
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inJESUS:
Hello…You remind me of someone 😃

i’m learning Aramaic 👍
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When you learned Aramaic good enough, make sure the words ELOI and **ELI ** are correctly translated in your Arabic Bibles and thye maintain the difference between these two terms.

ELOI and **ELI ** are not the same terms.

Right now what I learned is ELI and ELOI both are translated as ILAAHI in your Arabic Bible. So, if you know only Arabic, then you will never be able to see the deception played by the translators by not making any distinction between the two and not letting the Arabic readers what is in the “originals”. You might be thinking the Holy Ghost has inspired same word to St. Mark and St. Matthew (who were not actual disciples of Jesus, anyway).

But the moment you learned other langauges such as Greek and Latin, and read so-called “original” MSS of NT, you will see that the Holy Ghost “inspired” two different words to Mark and Matthew. In other words either Mark and Matthew were not inspired by the same Holy Ghost becasue Holy Ghost is not supposed to make mistakes —or— the Holy Ghost did not know what exact word Jesus pronounced loudly when complaining to His God, while on the “cross” before his so-called “death”.

Mark 15:34 **And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying: Eloi, Eloi, lamma sabacthani? Which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? **
[Douay-Rheims Bible, Mark Chapter 15]](Douay-Rheims Bible, Mark Chapter 15])
وفي الساعة التاسعة صرخ يسوع بصوت عظيم قائلا ألوي ألوي لما شبقتني الذي تفسيره الهي الهي لماذا تركتني
[arabicbible.com/bible/nt/mar/15.htm]](http://www.arabicbible.com/bible/nt/mar/15.htm])

Matthew 27:46 **And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying: Eli, Eli, lamma sabacthani? that is, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? **
[Douay-Rheims Bible, Matthew Chapter 27]](Douay-Rheims Bible, Matthew Chapter 27])
ونحو الساعة التاسعة صرخ يسوع بصوت عظيم قائلا ايلي ايلي لما شبقتني اي الهي الهي لماذا تركتني .
[arabicbible.com/bible/nt/mat/27.htm]](http://www.arabicbible.com/bible/nt/mat/27.htm])
 
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freedomm:
When you learned Aramaic good enough, make sure the words ELOI and **ELI ** are correctly translated in your Arabic Bibles and thye maintain the difference between these two terms.

ELOI and **ELI ** are not the same terms.

Right now what I learned is ELI and ELOI both are translated as ILAAHI in your Arabic Bible. So, if you know only Arabic, then you will never be able to see the deception played by the translators by not making any distinction between the two and not letting the Arabic readers what is in the “originals”. You might be thinking the Holy Ghost has inspired same word to St. Mark and St. Matthew (who were not actual disciples of Jesus, anyway).

But the moment you learned other langauges such as Greek and Latin, and read so-called “original” MSS of NT, you will see that the Holy Ghost “inspired” two different words to Mark and Matthew. In other words either Mark and Matthew were not inspired by the same Holy Ghost becasue Holy Ghost is not supposed to make mistakes —or— the Holy Ghost did not know what exact word Jesus pronounced loudly when complaining to His God, while on the “cross” before his so-called “death”.

Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying: Eloi, Eloi, lamma sabacthani? Which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
[Douay-Rheims Bible, Mark Chapter 15]](Douay-Rheims Bible, Mark Chapter 15])
وفي الساعة التاسعة صرخ يسوع بصوت عظيم قائلا ألوي ألوي لما شبقتني الذي تفسيره الهي الهي لماذا تركتني
[arabicbible.com/bible/nt/mar/15.htm]](http://www.arabicbible.com/bible/nt/mar/15.htm])

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying: Eli, Eli, lamma sabacthani? that is, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
[Douay-Rheims Bible, Matthew Chapter 27]](Douay-Rheims Bible, Matthew Chapter 27])
ونحو الساعة التاسعة صرخ يسوع بصوت عظيم قائلا ايلي ايلي لما شبقتني اي الهي الهي لماذا تركتني .
[arabicbible.com/bible/nt/mat/27.htm]](http://www.arabicbible.com/bible/nt/mat/27.htm])
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Ah my good old friend, tilting at straw men as per usual - who cares what WORDS were used as long as the MEANING is clear. in fact it’s a quote from one of the OT Psalms so there can be no doubt as to what the WORD was either, doesn’t make the slightest difference if later scribes wrote it down incorrectly. It’s nice that our book doesn’t have to be letter-perfect in that way.
 
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freedomm:
When you learned Aramaic good enough, make sure the words ELOI and **ELI **are correctly translated in your Arabic Bibles and thye maintain the difference between these two terms.

ELOI and **ELI **are not the same terms.
Click to expand...
Would you please explain why you would use this argument when you don’t believe Jesus ever hung on the cross? And second, since Jesus was quoting Ps 22:1 on the cross, isn’t it rather unlikely that both the Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek New Testament are wrong using Eli, a Hebrew word, rather than Allah, an Arab word?
 
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Eden:
Would you please explain why you would use this argument when you don’t believe Jesus ever hung on the cross?
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To show Christians that the whole idea of “inspired by the Holy Ghost” is false because whoever wrote the so-called “original” MSS of Greek were not inspired.
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Eden:
And second, since Jesus was quoting Ps 22:1 on the cross, isn’t it rather unlikely that both the Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek New Testament are wrong using Eli, a Hebrew word, rather than Allah, an Arab word?
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How do you know Jesus was actually qouting Ps22:1? Did Holy Ghost tell you? Or Jesus told you?

If supposed inspired authors of the “canonical” Gospels (Mark/Matthew) were inspired differently and were not sure what exact word Jesus shouted, and they cannot resolve the Passover issue, then how would you or the person who first coinded the idea of “Jesus is actually qouting Ps 22:1” know this for sure?
 
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freedomm:
To show Christians that the whole idea of “inspired by the Holy Ghost” is false because whoever wrote the so-called “original” MSS of Greek were not inspired.
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This is often used to prove that the Quran says the Bible is corrupted:

Quran 2:79 “Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: “This is from God,” to traffic with it for miserable price!”

But if that is referring to the Bible and the Bible is false, then why did Muhammad command Christians to follow the Bible they possessed in 600 A.D. in the Quran 2:89; 7:157?

Can give me any other passages where the Quran says the Bible that was in the hands of the Christians at the time of Muhammad had been corrupted?
 
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freedomm:
How do you know Jesus was actually qouting Ps22:1? Did Holy Ghost tell you? Or Jesus told you?
freedomm, it’s BLEEDING OBVIOUS that he was quoting the psalm - if I said the line ‘to be or not to be’ you’d know I was quoting Hamlet by William Shakespeare - doesn’t need the Holy Ghost’s inspiration to tell you that I’m quoting, because the work I’m quoting is very well-known!
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If someone wrote down my words and wrote that I said ‘to be or not to ME’ a scholar would say ‘hang on, this person was familiar with the works of Shakespeare, 99% likely is that they said ‘to be or not to be’ instead.’ Again, it doesn’t need the Holy Ghost to tell you that - it’s called scholarship.
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