Questions from a Pentacostal

[PinoyCatholic]

That argument for immersion baptism has always made me shake my head.
**
Hypothetical situation 1**: A man lives in the Sahara desert. He derives his water from small palm-sized pools of water that condense in the early morning from what little dew there is in the desert, and cutting open whatever cacti and plants he can find.

A caravan passes by and a preacher (Baptist, Pentecostal, what have you) talks to him and convinces him to accept Christ as his personal lord and savior™. But in order for him to be saved he must be baptized by immersion because he must be born of water and spirit.

So the man goes and tries to find the nearest pool of water that he can be immersed in. This entails a 30 day journey by camel across blistering heat, skin-peeling sandstorms and freezing cold at night. Halfway there a poisonous snake bites him and he dies in horrible convulsions thinking that he has not been completely saved and that he curses the day he had ever heard of this “Christ”.

Hypothetical situation 2: Same deal except it was a Catholic priest who baptizes him with sprinkling. He is now saved by water and spirit. He goes about his business trying to be the best Christian he could possibly be. 10 days later he gets bitten by a poisonous snake. He dies in horrible convulsions thinking that he is now going home to his God.

Which one is more practical?

 

[mikeledes]

I my self am a totally onfire christian and I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I try my best, with my broken fallen and carnal nature, to love all those are apart of the body of Christ. I seek to understand several Cathololic Doctrines that I personally do not share. I do not seek to argue or bring about a hatefull spirit in myself or others. I merely seek to understand where, biblically, the following doctrines come from. If there is no direct biblical justification then I would like to know any other justifications that may be used for them.

~The belief in Limbo, or purgetory.

~The belief in “trickling” baptism as opposed to the the way that jesus was baptisted in full emersion

~The high place that Mary has in catholic doctrine. Why is she prayed to? Why do many catholics beleive that she was sinless throughout her entire life?

~The high place that saints have in catholic belief. Why are they are called upon to ask for forgivness? Where does the process of calling someone a saint come from? as i understand it it is very long and involved.

~Why did the catholic church only alow the bible to be in latin for such a long time? I understand this may not be the beleif of the contemperary catholic church, but if anyone knows why this was done in the first place?

~Why is the bible not the only source of catholic doctrine?

~Why exactly what roles to the various councils through out the years have in influencing catholic doctrine?

~Why is it that the catholic church and the lutheran church are so at each others throats, and yet theologically the Lutheren church is the closest to Catholicism of any protostant denominations.

~Why does the pope hold such a high regard? why do people fall to his feet and kiss his hand as if he is higher than everyone on the planet? it says in Gods word that nobody is rightous, not even one. Why is a sinner treated as if he were perfect? Catholics may not believe that he his, it just seems that many treat his as if he is.

I seek biblical justfication for these questions, not papel decries, decisions of councils, or any other such justifications. Councils and Popes, although how ever wise they may be, if they establish a belief based not on Gods word but on there own wisdom, it is like a house built on sand (thats biblical by the way). Like I said, i do not seek a fight, I seek answers as to why these beliefs and practices have been established. Thank you all and I wish you all a blessed day.

With The love that christ calls us all to have,

Brendan Marchione

Wow! You have a lot of questions! Here’s some reading:

On Purgatory:

catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp

On Baptism:

catholic.com/library/Baptism_Immersion_Only.asp

On Mary and the saints:

catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

catholic.com/library/Mary_Full_of_Grace.asp

On Bible and Tradition:

catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp

catholic.com/library/What_Your_Authority.asp

On the Pope:

catholic.com/library/Peter_and_the_Papacy.asp

catholic.com/library/Peter_the_Rock.asp

catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_1.asp

catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_2.asp

To be continued…

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Subrosa]

Hi B4C and welcome to the forums!

I agree with some of the other posters when they say that you need to address these issues on individual postings. WAY too many to deal with on one thread.

Given that, I’ll try to answer one for you anyway. How 'bout the first one on Limbo/Purgetory?

A short note first - The reformers of the 16th century have a different idea when it comes to sacraments than the Catholic Church. The Church has never hedged on the understanding that the Holy Spirit gives graces with the use of Sacraments.

Limbo has to do with the efficacy of baptism and babies who are not baptised.

First off, limbo was a hypothesis and now is not taught in the church. It sought to deal with the issue of children who died without being baptised. One understanding of baptism is that the Holy Spirit cleanses all sin including original sin with the washing. Acts 22:16 says “And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.” Since baptism washes away all sin, it also washes away Original Sin. Unbaptised children still bear the effect of Original Sin, but none of thier own particular sins. So the theologians thought that God, in His infinate mercy, would consign these children to a place conceived as Limbo since “nothing unclean will enter it [heaven]” (Rev 21:27)

Purgatory is something believed from the earliest days of Christianity. It got it’s name somewhat later when the Church started to define things.

Purgatory is a place that exists between heaven and hell where souls are “purged” of sin.

In considering that John tells us that there are sins that are deadly and sins that are not (1 John 5:16, 17), we must consider also Rev 21:27, nothing unclean will enter.

Paul, in 1 Corinthians 3:15 tells us, “But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.” So Paul tells us we will be saved after a type of purging with fire.

Also consider 1 Peter 3:18-20 “For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit. **In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison,….”

Peter tells us Jesus, when He was Spirit during the three days of His death before His resurrection (He wasn’t just spirit anymore) preached to the spirits in prison. Consider that He preached. People in hell don’t need preaching because they are condemned, preaching won’t help. People in heaven also need no preaching because they are there already. So they are in “prison,” a temporary internment.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 5:25-26, “Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.”

These concepts of prison, being released, both deadly and non-deadly sin, cleansing with fire, and the need of being pure before entering heaven amounts to Purgatory, a place of purgation that exists between heaven and hell. The good part is that once you know that you are in Purgatory, you’re going to get out. Purgatory is one of God’s graces.

Subrosa

 

[inthecloud]

I have been told that is hard to baptize someone by inmersion in the river Jordan some months of the year. Is that true? Is the Middle East after all!

 

[Catholicdeacon]

~The high place that Mary has in catholic doctrine.

I have found that there are tree types of Christians:

1. Those who love and honor Mary for who she is. First and foremost the Mother of Jesus, they understand that every other title she is given flows from this simple fact.
2. Those who just do not care about Mary. Sadly many Catholics fall in this category.
3. Those who go out of their way to prove that Mary was just peasant Girl that God just used to conceive his son and that for the rest of her life, Jesus went out of His way to put down (Calling her “Woman” instead of Mom, Saying that His real Mother are those who listen to His words) so they think “If Jesus did it I can do it to”. About these people I often wander, when they meet our Lord face-to-face what will they say when he asks" Tell me this you who claim to be my faithful servant…What have you been saying about my Mother?"

In His love (and Her motherly protection)
Catholic Deacon

 

[po18guy]

I my self am a totally onfire christian and I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I try my best, with my broken fallen and carnal nature, to love all those are apart of the body of Christ.

My thoughts exactly! Here is a Reader’s Digest condensed version:

~The belief in Limbo, or purgetory.

Nothing unrighteous can enter heaven. We all die with some level of sin. Where and how is it purified?

~The belief in “trickling” baptism as opposed to the the way that jesus was baptisted in full emersion

With the power of God, three drops can cleanse of sin. In baptism, it’s God doing the work, not man or the water. What about the places your pastor holds you by when you go under? Are they not also saved?

~The high place that Mary has in catholic doctrine. Why is she prayed to? Why do many catholics beleive that she was sinless throughout her entire life?

forums.catholic-questions.org/private.php?do=showpm&pmid=539771
-and-
forums.catholic-questions.org/private.php?do=showpm&pmid=539774

~The high place that saints have in catholic belief. Why are they are called upon to ask for forgivness?

God is God of the living, not the dead. Christ said so and revealed it in the transfiguration. The living can pray for us, as I pray for you. How much better those who stand in God’s presence? God makes the Saints. The church has a process to recognize them. It is not a popularity contest-it requires certified miracles of intercession.

~Why did the catholic church only alow the bible to be in latin for such a long time?

Simple. It is the official language of the church.

~Why is the bible not the only source of catholic doctrine?

Jesus never taught using a bible, never commanded the writing or using of one. He knew that scripture can be twisted (Pharisees) without authoritative teaching. He taught orally, in which error could be corrected-not so with scripture.

~Why exactly what roles to the various councils through out the years have in influencing catholic doctrine?

The early councils established the deposit of faith. The later councils officially defined it and defended it from heresy.

~Why is it that the catholic church and the lutheran church are so at each others throats.

We are not at anybody’s throats. We call all Christians to unity in the fulness of truth. They separated. We call them back.

~Why does the pope hold such a high regard?

Honestly, if Saint Paul were alive, many would fawn over him even more. The pope speaks with the authority of Peter, and a kiss was the greeting used by early Christians. FYI: He goes to confession, too.

I seek biblical justfication for these questions.

Here is what is lacking in your faith tradition. Sacred Tradition is how Christ spread the gospel. That is how he intended it to be passed on. In the temples and synagogues, he taught live, and answered questions. That is how faith is correctly taught-as Jesus did. Holy Scripture helps immensely, but it is far from complete, saying so in at least two places.

Thank you all and I wish you all a blessed day. With The love that christ calls us all to have, Brendan Marchione

And, may Christ’s peace always be with you.

 

[sodak]

~Why did the catholic church only alow the bible to be in latin for such a long time? I understand this may not be the beleif of the contemperary catholic church, but if anyone knows why this was done in the first place?

Several reasons. First of all, back in those days, Latin was the official written language in that part of the world. The Church wanted the Bible to be read, so if people could read, they almost always read Latin. Latin is also nice, as the pronunciations are exactly the same no matter what your base language is. If you know Latin, you could travel to Portugal or Italy and easily understand their Latin mass.

~Why is the bible not the only source of catholic doctrine?
I seek biblical justfication for these questions, not papel decries, decisions of councils, or any other such justifications. Councils and Popes, although how ever wise they may be, if they establish a belief based not on Gods word but on there own wisdom, it is like a house built on sand (thats biblical by the way). Like I said, i do not seek a fight, I seek answers as to why these beliefs and practices have been established. Thank you all and I wish you all a blessed day.

Why should the Bible be the only justification? In fact, I’ll go a step further. Explain to me why I should accept your premise that the Bible is authoritative.

With The love that christ calls us all to have,

Brendan Marchione

 

[Linda_Marie]

Quote:
*~Why did the catholic church only alow the bible to be in latin for such a long time? *

Simple. It is the official language of the church.

It is a myth that the Church would only allow a Latin Bible. The Bible was available in Greek and Hebrew before it was translated into Latin. It was also translated into many other colloquial languages as well that were approved for use by the Church.

In addition to Latin being the official language of the Church, it was the universal language of the day, as English is now. More people spoke and read Latin than any other language. The first Latin Bible is known as the Vulgate, this is from the Latin vulgaris meaning common. Latin was the common language so a Bible in Latin was available to more people across the known world than if it were in any other language.

It is a myth that Luther was the first to produce a bible in a language other than Latin. The first English language translation was by the Venerable Bede towards the end of the seventh century (around 680-699). Luther’s bible was condemned, not because it was in German, but because the translation was in error. He changed words to support his doctrines and removed entire books that contradicted his beliefs. The first Germanic version of the bible was Ulfilas’s (ca 381).

If you do a simple search, you can find many threads on the Bible. There are also articles in the Catholic Answers Library available by clicking the link at the top of the page.

 

[po18guy]

That argument for immersion baptism has always made me shake my head.
**
Hypothetical situation 1**: A man lives in the Sahara desert. He derives his water from small palm-sized pools of water that condense in the early morning from what little dew there is in the desert, and cutting open whatever cacti and plants he can find.

A caravan passes by and a preacher (Baptist, Pentecostal, what have you) talks to him and convinces him to accept Christ as his personal lord and savior™. But in order for him to be saved he must be baptized by immersion because he must be born of water and spirit.

So the man goes and tries to find the nearest pool of water that he can be immersed in. This entails a 30 day journey by camel across blistering heat, skin-peeling sandstorms and freezing cold at night. Halfway there a poisonous snake bites him and he dies in horrible convulsions thinking that he has not been completely saved and that he curses the day he had ever heard of this “Christ”.

Hypothetical situation 2: Same deal except it was a Catholic priest who baptizes him with sprinkling. He is now saved by water and spirit. He goes about his business trying to be the best Christian he could possibly be. 10 days later he gets bitten by a poisonous snake. He dies in horrible convulsions thinking that he is now going home to his God.

Which one is more practical?

Praise God’s grace! The baptism of desire will save even without water. And with it…

 

[po18guy]

It is a myth that the Church would only allow a Latin Bible. The Bible was available in Greek and Hebrew before it was translated into Latin. It was also translated into many other colloquial languages as well that were approved for use by the Church.

In addition to Latin being the official language of the Church, it was the universal language of the day, as English is now. More people spoke and read Latin than any other language. The first Latin Bible is known as the Vulgate, this is from the Latin vulgaris meaning common. Latin was the common language so a Bible in Latin was available to more people across the known world than if it were in any other language.

It is a myth that Luther was the first to produce a bible in a language other than Latin. The first English language translation was by the Venerable Bede towards the end of the seventh century (around 680-699). Luther’s bible was condemned, not because it was in German, but because the translation was in error. He changed words to support his doctrines and removed entire books that contradicted his beliefs. The first Germanic version of the bible was Ulfilas’s (ca 381).

If you do a simple search, you can find many threads on the Bible. There are also articles in the Catholic Answers Library available by clicking the link at the top of the page.

Thank you for clarifying and enlightening me. I hope the OP considers all. From what he has posted, he is a true brother in Christ. He is seeking and I will lift him up at adoration this evening.

Christ’s peace.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I seek biblical justfication for these questions, not papel decries, decisions of councils, or any other such justifications.

It’s not necessary to give mere Biblical justification for any of your questions, as “Bible only” is YOUR rule, not ours, and we don’t have to play by your rules.

If you want OUR answers to your questions, then you must accept OUR rules for answering them.

 

[Church_Militant]

I merely seek to understand where, biblically, the following doctrines come from. If there is no direct biblical justification then I would like to know any other justifications that may be used for them.

~The belief in Limbo, or purgetory.

Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

~The belief in “trickling” baptism as opposed to the the way that jesus was baptisted in full emersion

I don’t think you can show where the Word of God actually says that Jesus was immersion.

~The high place that Mary has in catholic doctrine. Why is she prayed to? Why do many catholics beleive that she was sinless throughout her entire life?

Immaculate Conception and Assumption
Mary: Ever Virgin (Fathers*)
Mary: Full of Grace (Fathers*)
Mary: Mother of God (Fathers*)

~The high place that. saints have in catholic belief. Why are they are called upon to ask for forgivness? Where does the process of calling someone a saint come from? as i understand it it is very long and involved.

The Intercession of the Saints (Fathers*)
Praying to the Saints
Saint Worship?
MP3 download Bible studies
Mary & the Bible; plus Purgatory & the Bible%between%
The Communion of Saints

~Why did the catholic church only alow the bible to be in latin for such a long time? I understand this may not be the beleif of the contemperary catholic church, but if anyone knows why this was done in the first place?

Do your homework in history my friend and go back and see what language all the scholars read…those that could read.

~Why is the bible not the only source of catholic doctrine?

Catholics and the Bible
Sola Scriptura - The Bible Alone?
Apologetics 101-07

~Why exactly what roles to the various councils through out the years have in influencing catholic doctrine?

They define and affirm doctrines based on the Bible and Sacred Tradition.

~Why is it that the catholic church and the lutheran church are so at each others throats, and yet theologically the Lutheren church is the closest to Catholicism of any protostant denominations.

Couldn’t tell ya…most of that is on their end, and even then it’s not all of them.
(Cont’d)

 

[Church_Militant]

~Why does the pope hold such a high regard? why do people fall to his feet and kiss his hand as if he is higher than everyone on the planet? it says in Gods word that nobody is rightous, not even one. Why is a sinner treated as if he were perfect? Catholics may not believe that he his, it just seems that many treat his as if he is.

It’s just respect. You make more of it than it is. We love and respect the Pope and he leads the church in maintaining faithful doctrine. If you knew much about popes like John XXIII, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI, you’d be much less likely to make allegations of sin against them. All 3 of them are men who have consecrated their whole life to the loving service of Our Lord Jesus Christ and His Church.

I seek biblical justfication for these questions, not papel decries, decisions of councils, or any other such justifications. Councils and Popes, although how ever wise they may be, if they establish a belief based not on Gods word but on there own wisdom, it is like a house built on sand (thats biblical by the way). Like I said, i do not seek a fight, I seek answers as to why these beliefs and practices have been established. Thank you all and I wish you all a blessed day.

With The love that Christ calls us all to have,

Brendan Marchione

You’re just slap outta luck on this one Brendan because the Bible does not teach that everything that Christians believe has to be found within the pages of the Bible and there is a great deal of Sacred Tradition that informs what we believe. If you reject it then you wrongly reject the verifiable writings of the earliest members of the church and in so doing set yourself up to believe the modern post reformation errors that have only been around for the last 500 years. If you are Pentecostal, (for instance), those teachings have only been around about 125 years or so, and in spite of all the citations of scripture that they are preached under, they are not the same beliefs that the New Testament actually teaches and that the early church wrote that they believed.

 

[Church_Militant]

Thanks to the Apocrypha

, we have another case that shows the meaning of baptism. Sir 34:25 KJVA
(25) He that washeth himself after the touching of a dead body, if he touch it again, what availeth his washing?

The word translated washeth in the KJV is again baptizo, baptism. And here’s a case where the writing of this word is very close in time to the New Testament, but slightly before, so we know the meaning again is broader than immerse. We know that because the cleansing, the baptism after touching a dead body is prescribed in scripture, and it’s by sprinkling. Both the person and the object are sprinkled.

JJYou need to get your terminology squared away JJ.

The Catholic Church does not base any of it’s doctrines on any apocryphal writings. Our Bible contains 7 of Deuterocanonical books.

Apocryphal writings were rejected by the church and excluded from the canon of inspired scripture.

The term “apocrypha” is often errantly or pejoratively used by n-Cs/a-Cs to imply that the Deuterocanonical books are not inspired. It’s an important point you need to make plain in your apologetic dialogs my friend.

 

[Pax]

Burning4Christ,

Here’s some good information for you concerning history of the bible and its translations:

THE 1st PRINTED BIBLE was the Gutenberg Bible printed in 1452 (i.e.the Latin Vulgate Catholic-bible with all 73 books). Over 200 copies printed in the 1st edition. There were124 editions in the first 50 years, and all were sponsered by the catholic church. By the time Luther’s German New Testament appeared in 1522 there were 14 complete printed editions of the Catholic Bible in German. Parallel with this in time were 11 Italian translations, 10 French, 2 Bohemian, 1 Flemish, and 1 Russian.

1st complete Catholic ‘‘modern’’ english translation was the Douay Rheims NT 1582, OT 1610.

The English Language as we know it today did not emerge as a definite language until the 15th century.

King James version was first published in 1610. The seven dueterocanonical books were included at the back of the 1610 edition and there was a penalty of one year in prison if a KJV bible was printed without these books.

Reformation began in 1517

Wyclif’s was a pre-Reformation Old English translation written around 1380.

Aelfric, Catholic Archbishop of Canterbury from 994 to1005, translated 1st seven books and the Book of Job into old English. Between 721 and 901, various writers (i.e. Bede, Eadfrith, Alcuin, and King Alfred are believed to have translated parts or all of the bible into ‘‘Old English.’’

The name Vulgate means ‘‘disseminated’’ or people’s bible. The Latin Vulgate was translated by the Catholic monk, Jerome around the year 384. The Catholic canon of scripture was settled at the Council of Hippo in A.D. 393. This is the identicle canon as that of the Council of Trent, 1546.

Luther rejected the 7 deuterocanonical books of the bible and also eliminated Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelaton from the NT, but later Protestants reinserted them. Today the Catholic and Protestant NT books are identicle. Until 1873 the authorized version of the King James had the 7 books they call the apocrapha. Some new editions are restoring these book.

I hope this helps.

 

[guanophore]

I have been told that is hard to baptize someone by inmersion in the river Jordan some months of the year. Is that true? Is the Middle East after all!

Yes, it is only ankle deep in many places, like the Rio Grande here in the desert areas.

 

[po18guy]

Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

Thanks for the link. It just backs everything up.

Christ’s peace.

 

[roanoker]

Boy, this has been a great thread! Probably the best I have seen on this forum…Roanoker

 

[Parysa]

Lots of good info here, guys! Thanks.

The pope speaks with the authority of Peter, and a kiss was the greeting used by early Christians. FYI: He goes to confession, too.

You know, I never thought of that. But to who(m?) would the Pope confess?

 

[Church_Militant]

Thanks for the link. It just backs everything up.

Christ’s peace.

Thanks… All Glory Be To God!