Questions from a Southern Baptist

[TNT]

scylla:

Man, now my mouse is broken from clicking so fast on this link!

I have been spending most my time lately on Baptist\Protestant discussion boards. So maybe I feel I have a partial answer to why do so many people become anti-catholic.

#1
One of the many reasons is this, Catholics believe they are in the Church founded by Jesus Christ and can trace their way back. Some people think that thinking that, is just arrogant, since they believe that Jesus never founded a visible Church, just an invisible one made up of all believers in Jesus Christ.
#2
Many Catholics leaving the Church leave to different faith traditions. Some of these faiths have a belief in a great apostasy theory, that the Church fell away, they are going to a true faith rejecting the errors of Catholicism. This would mean that they were lied to and many feel an animosity toward the Church for not telling them about this.
#3 (similar to #2)
Many people are led away from the Church by anti-catholics and gain the same prejudices of them against the Church. My brother is like this, he grew up like me a lax Catholic and now believes much of the Jack Chick kinda stuff. He barely will even discuss the faith with me, but is slowly, very slowly starting to open up.

One thing I have found is pretty much the opposite is true with Catholicism, you don’t reject anything you just complete your faith. I am friends with many people from Calvary Chapel where we used to attend church. Each time I see them I try to share my faith, and yet we have good relationships.

God Bless
Scylla

** (sheesh that is a lot of posts in a short period of time, no wonder they are asking for donations for the servers)**

Great post.
Someone poked the beehive! I started writing my post as the 3rd one. By the time I submitted it, it came in as Post 13!

 

[Manphibian]

One more question, (in this post anyway), if I may…

In the Our Father Prayer (we call it the Lord’s Prayer) why is “For Thine is the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory forever.” left out?

Be Gods,
Matt

 

[Della]

Manphibian:

One more question, (in this post anyway), if I may…

In the Our Father Prayer (we call it the Lord’s Prayer) why is “For Thine is the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory forever.” left out?

Be Gods,
Matt

It is how the congregation recites it during the Mass. The “for thine is the kingdom…” is recited by the congregation after the priest has prayed a short prayer in between the first part and those particular words. That’s all.

 

[threej_lc]

Manphibian:

One more question, (in this post anyway), if I may…

In the Our Father Prayer (we call it the Lord’s Prayer) why is “For Thine is the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory forever.” left out?

Easy. Because its not part of the Lord’s prayer. In the original manuscripts, Matthew 6:9 and Luke 11:2, did not contain this line. Rather, it was inserted as a footnote in some translations later on. Some protestant translaters later confused this footnote as part of the original text.

If you’d like actual documentation on this issue, I’m sure other forum members can find it for you.
Josh

 

[sparkle]

Manphibian:

Hello,

I’m sure many of you nearly dented your mouse left-clicking on this topic. Hurring in to defend your faith against any number of mindless, shallow accusations by an uninformed Baptist. I’m sorry to dissappoint you.

Hi Matt:

I’m a convert just over 4 months now myself. Just wanted to briefly say it’s only God and his beautiful grace that is pulling you “home” to His True Church. Praise the Lord!!! And get EWTN on your local cable TV station. He just might want to use you to educate those other Baptists you know!!!

May God Bless You in your journey~~

 

[Manphibian]

To try and answer a question posed to me:

The Baptist, and I assume other denominations beliefs on Mary are pretty short and sweet. she’s rarely mentioned, except during Christmas and whenever her name comes up in the scripture we’re reading. We also believe in the Immaculate Conception, but not as Catholicism see’s it. We believe Christ was conceived of a virgin through the Holy Spirit, but not that Mary was conceived free from original sin. It’s sort of a play on words.

I’ve been praying that if God wants me to be Catholic that he would show me, or let me know. Thanks for the help friends.

Be Gods,

Matt

 

[Pax]

The Assumption of Mary can be addressed as follows:

The book of Revelation is filled with imagery and like many passages of scripture it has several levels of meaning. Catholics believe, and with good reason, that the woman clothed with the sun describes Israel, the church, and also Mary.

It’s important to point out that the church does not use Rev 12 as a proof text for the Assumption. Instead, the church uses it as highly indicative and meaningful. The church does not make a specific claim of proof from scripture that Mary was assumed into heaven, but the church has good reason to proclaim this truth, and does point to scripture to support the teaching. Hopefully, this will become clearer as this post develops.

Catholic teachings on Mary cannot be isolated from one another to be appreciated in scripture. This holds true of Christian teachings as they apply to Jesus and also to the Trinity. You really need the whole picture. I like to view scripture as God’s love letters to his people. I also like to use other analogies as well. The totality of scripture is in some ways similar to a beautiful tapestry. Every thread forms part of a grand and beautiful picture. It is also similar to a magnificent symphony in that each note, instrument, beat, and crescendo draws us into the grand musical design of the composer. Adopting such views of scripture gives us more ways to appreciate God’s word. It helps us to see that which we would otherwise overlook. Everything is related in its meaning, its beauty, and to the truth that is God as brought to us in Jesus.

I hope you’re patient and that I haven’t annoyed you with this back drop. I have only done this because it is important to think in these terms when we read the word of God.

A summary of the scriptural connections for the Assumption of Mary begins with Genesis 3:15 which reads, “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."

In Rev 12 we see the dragon, “the ancient serpent” which is a clear reference to Genesis and the fall, pursuing the woman and making war on her off spring. The reference to “the woman” is very significant. It is used some eight or nine times in Genesis 3 subsequent to the fall, and is used some eight or nine times in Rev 12. The term “woman” is an identifier/title. This identifier/title is also used by Jesus when He addresses Mary at the marriage feast of Cana, and when He gives her to the disciple whom He loved at the foot of the cross.

The “woman” described in Rev 12 is not merely a symbol of Israel or the Church. We know this for several reasons. The first clue is at the end of Rev 11 in verse 19 where it says, “Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.” The Ark of the Covenant is a reference to Mary and it immediately precedes Rev 12:1 that says, “AND A great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;”

The connection between these verses is unmistakeable and the woman is described as having clothing, having feet, and having a crown on her head. These “physical attributes” have meaning. In the scene of Rev 12 we see individuals. We see Jesus, who rules with a rod of iron. We see Satan the ancient serpent, and we see “the woman.” All three are individuals and all three are mentioned in the prophecy in Genesis 3. This is one of the reasons why we know that the reference to the woman clothed with the sun includes Mary. The other passages about the pangs of child birth more aptly applies to the additional meanings that refer to the church or even Israel, but that’s an entirely different matter.

The reference to the Ark is also indicative of Mary because we see the foreshadowing of Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant in bearing Jesus in her womb with the OT Ark of the Covenant. This connection is readily seen by analyzing 2nd Sam chapter six and Luke chapter 1 to see the incredible scriptural parallels. The following are fascinating typological threads in the beautiful fabric of scripture.

2 Sam 6:2
And David arose and went with all the people who were with him from Baale-judah, to bring up from there the ark of God

Luke 1: 39
In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post

2 Sam 6:9
And David…. said, “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?”

Luke 1: 43.
(and Elizabeth said to Mary) “And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”

2 Sam 6:10
David took it [the Ark] aside to the house of Obededom the Gittite.

Luke 1: 40. and she[Mary]entered the house of Zechariah

2 Sam 6:15
So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the Lord with shouting

Luke 1:42
and she [Elizabeth] exclaimed with a loud cry,

2 Sam 6: 16
As the ark of the Lord came into the city…Michal saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord;

Luke 1: 41
And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb;

2 Sam 6:11.
And the ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obebedom the Gittite three months;

Luke 1:56
And Mary remained with her [Elizabeth] about three months

In the book of Exodus we have a description of the Ark and how carefully it was designed and constructed per God’s instructions to Moses. The Ark contained the Manna, the Ten Commandments, and Aaron’s rod (the symbol of the priesthood).
Mary carried the divine savior in her womb and she was also specially prepared.
Scripture tells us about God making us in our mother’s wombs. It says in Jer 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” And in Psalm 139:13-15 it says,
“For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.” Now if this applies to us and to the prophets, it applies to the mother of the Lord Jesus in even more profound ways. We know what was carried in the Ark, and we know that Jesus is the bread that came down from heaven, that he was the fulfillment of the Law and the prophets, and that he is the high priest of the new covenant. Jesus was carried in the womb of the Ark of the New Covenant. Mary and the Ark are clearly connected in scripture and there is the unmistakable connection in Rev 11 and 12.

There is something else that should be remembered. Jesus is the most perfect reflection of the Father’s love. Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus obeyed the commandments with an unmatched perfection. To the Jews, honoring your father and mother meant not only to honor them but to glorify them. Jesus loved his mother like no son has ever loved their mother. He honored and glorified her in ways that only the Second Person of the Trinity could. Catholic teaching merely reflects what Jesus did for Mary. Enoch and Elijah were assumed into heaven….why not Mary?

Protestants claim that the teaching of the Assumption is not contained in scripture and that it came late to scene in Christian understandings. There are serious problems with this contention. I hope the scriptural part has already been adequately addressed. If you know Christian history you will quickly realize how conservative the early church was and how if fiercely fought any and all heresies. The teaching of the Assumption was never contested. The reason for this is because it had already been accepted before it became common in Christian prayers where it seems to have appeared everywhere simultaneously. Moreover, the early Christians were quite fanatical about protecting and preserving the bones of saints and martyrs. The remains of the apostles, saints, and martyrs from the early church are still kept safe today. Mary’s remains are nowhere to be found and no Christian church community has ever claimed to possess them. This is significant in light of Christian practice.

Look at the entire picture. Look at the threads of this beautiful and holy tapestry of God’s work as it has unfolded in scripture and tradition. It is fitting and wondrous. And never forget that it was in Luke chapter one where the angel Gabriel tells Mary, “For nothing is impossible with God.”

 

[Sherlock]

Manphibian,

May God grant you wisdom.

I would suggest a CD by a former Evangelical, Mark Shea, who is a convert. He explores the topic of Mary from his Evangelical background: one of the things he mentioned was that, as an Evangelical, he too did the “Christmas” thing in regards to attention to Mary. But look at those words from Luke: “All generations shall call me blessed”. It prompted him to ask, well, just how have I fulfilled that prophecy? And if Catholics venerate Mary too much, just how do Evangelicals honor her “just enough”? Remember, too, that Mary is a creature, not the Creator. Because of this the Church makes a distinction (using Latin, because that language does not “evolve” as does English or other current languages) between the kinds of worship and praise due: “Latria” is adoration reserved for God, the most Holy Trinity. “Dulia” is the sort of veneration we offer to the saints, those who have given us real role-models of how to conform ourselves to Christ. “Hyper-dulia” is reserved for Mary, the most beautiful, perfect creature created. Just think—to carry God in one’s womb!

One thing to keep in mind as well: anti-Catholcs are fond of citing passages from the often very flowery praise given to Mary as proof that we Catholics “worship” her as God. It’s not true, of course, but it also helps to keep in mind the time in which such works were written. Flowery prose was much more the norm in the 19th century, and above that note that these texts are often in the form of love letters—if someone says, “How much do I love thee? Let me count the ways…” etc., it’s not reasonable to conclude that the author (in this case, Elizabeth Barret Browning) loved the object of the love-poem (her husband) more than God Himself, or gave God-like attributes to her husband. A bit of common sense helps here…Some of the “over-the-top” prose in praise of Mary should be considered as exuberant praise of a much beloved one, not as a theological statement.

Anyway, if you would like the CDs I mentioned, send me a private message and I’ll send them to you free of charge.

God Bless you and keep you.

 

[Pax]

Most of the teachings on Mary are really teachings about Jesus. If we lessen the teachings on Mary we also subtract something from Jesus. I will give you a clear example.

I was in a discussion with a couple of non-denominational Christians who were attacking the teachings of the Church concerning the mother of the Lord. They contended that Mary was not the mother of God. Theie contention was that she was the mother of the man Jesus, but not the mother of God.

I explained to them that Mary is not the mother of God the Father or of the Holy Spirit, and went on to say that she is a creature just as we are. I pointed out, however, that Jesus is a person and that Mary is the mother of Jesus. The person, Jesus, is both God and man. If we deny that Mary is the mother of God then we are also denying the divinity of Jesus. This denial is an ancient heresy known as Nestorianism.

 

[ekim61]

I suggest you find a parish that you are comfortable in and get enrolled in an RCIA class. This will answer many of your questions and also prepare you for conversion to Catholicism if you so desire.

 

[Sherlock]

Manphibian,

I’m not so sure my private message function is working. Did you receive my response?

 

[Nan_S]

Manphibian:

If I may, I’d like to ask a few questions that as of yet I haven’t got answered.
I’m sure many of these questions are elementary, but please understand where I’m coming from. I am a life long resident of the Bible Belt (Georgia) and I don’t even personally know anyone who is Catholic. Please help me with these issues and be patient with my lack of knowledge. Thanks, in advance.
In Christ, Matt

Forgive me if I scrolled through the other answers too fast, but I didn’t notice anyone sending you to the Catholic Answers Home Page to browse through our Library, Answer Guides, and other resources. A good place to start is HERE

 

[Malachi4U]

JMJ

Manphibian,

My preist is an EX-Baptist for most of the year. His mom is still Baptist and His brother (i.e. Sibling) is a Pentacostal preacher. He jokeingly says that once a year he is still Baptist when he goes home for his family reunion and this makes his mom happy!

Many of your questions have been answered by the Baptists coming home before you. Try this link:

chnetwork.org/
jerome2007.tripod.com/remarkable_conversions.htm

If you have the EWTN station in your area you can also watch the Journey Home program. They often interview EX-Baptist preachers about their comming home. There’s alot of them out there to interview too:

ewtn.com/

Also try reading some of the many books by EX-Baptists. They explain the same issues you have and how they found the answers.

Welcome Home!

Dan

 

[Lazerlike42]

Another way to understand Mary’s various dogmas from the Bible is this.

In Luke 1:28, we see Gabriel telling Mary, “Blessed are you among women.” This is a very important phrase, and it has incredible implications. The angel was almost certainly speaking Aramaic, which is the language Jesus and Mary and Peter and everybody in the area spoke at the time. In Aramaic, there is no way to say “most” or “least.” If you were in a room and I wanted to say in Aramaic that you were the smartest person there, I would have to say, “You are smart among us.” This means that what Gabriel is really saying is, “You are the most blessed woman.” This is really astounding! It also has several incredible implications.

Up until Mary, the most blessed woman was Eve. Why? Well for one thing, she was born completely full of God’s Grace with no sin or original sin or anything at all. If Mary was going to be as blessed as Eve, she needed to be born without original sin, too. We also know this when the gospel reads that Mary is “full of Grace.” However, this isn’t good enough. Mary has to be more blessed than Eve. In order to do that, there’s really only one thing she can do: never sin. Eve sinned. Mary didn’t. Now we start to think about death. Why did Adam and Eve die? They were meant to be immortal, but because of their sin, they died. Evermore, because of original sin we all die. Mary had none. She had no curse of death upon her. That’s why she was eventually assumed.

That’s another way of looking at it I’ve heard several times.

 

[RobNY]

Manphibian:

Hello,

I’m sure many of you nearly dented your mouse left-clicking on this topic. Hurring in to defend your faith against any number of mindless, shallow accusations by an uninformed Baptist. I’m sorry to dissappoint you.

Did no one take the time to single out this quote and point out how funny it is? This is one of the best things I’ve read in a while, “dented your mouse.” I found it *very funny. *

Let me say that there is little I can say that everyone else here can’t. So I’ll leave that to them. But, I’ll just comment on the beauty issue. No, it isn’t any more wrong to like the beauty of Catholicism than it is to admire the beauty of your bride. But, the same restraints apply. After some years you may not longer find her physical beauty as alluring. Make sure your love is far deeper than physical beauty. But yes, Catholicism can have a certain beauty, and more power to you if you can discern it. It can be hard sometimes in the modern mass, but it’s still there.

Beauty, though, often comes from love. If you accept the Church’s truth, and follow her practices, I guarantee* you will find her beautiful for all the days of your life.

*not a guarantee

(now that’s funny, )

 

[Jennifer123]

Hi Manphibian-

Just wanted to say welcome! I’m sure the Catholics who frequent this forum will give you plenty of great information, I just wanted to share some of my favorite apologetic links hoping to help out:

catholic.com/
envoymagazine.com/
scripturecatholic.com/
catholicresourcecenter.org/

For radio shows you can hear over the internet:
ewtn.com/
I recommend Household of Faith:
ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=6124&T1=Household+of+Faith
relevantradio.com/docs/index.asp

 

[KWilliam]

There are so many wonderful and helpful posts for you here Manphibian, I’m sure it’s almost overwhelming!

The library. Seriously, the History has been written in thousands of books. Just be careful to make sure that you get one that is historical and not one that rewrites or interprets history to serve an agenda. Regarding practices, I’ve bought for friends in your situation a book called “Why do Catholics do that” and also a book by Schreck (don’t recall the title

I think the book that Orionthehunter is trying to think of is “Catholic & Christian” by Alan Schreck.

It’s a very good book and helps explain many misunderstandings.

Also, check with the pastor at your local parish! We have a parish library here and there are many materials that they would be glad to give or loan to you. The particular book mentioned here was given to me by our priest when I came back to the Catholic Church.

 

[tradcatmel]

All I can say is the tridentine mass (in latin) is the best and that is what the photos above are about.

By the way, the photos are awesome!

Blessed be God in the most holy sacrament of the altar.

Amen

 

[Wormwood]

1. Why is there so many anti-Catholics? What makes some people so angry and uncomfortable with Catholicism? In other words… What’s the big deal?

Some people who misunderstand the Church hate it because they think it is leading people astray. Some unbelievers are influenced by the world which hates Christ, and still others feel they were lied to by the Church after being confronted by proselytizers who pointed out certain Bible verses, interpreting them as meaning things the Church doesn’t teach and convince the poorly informed or lax Catholic that the Church is the enemy of Christ. Sad, isn’t it? But true, as many here can testify

I have to play devil’s advocate here, no pun intended
As an agnostic who engages in theistic debate often, I have to say first that other people’s responses were just as biased and misleading, and that there is nothing about this particular person’s reply that makes it any worse. Seconly the two main reasons I hear people denounce catholicism (outside of crazy talk like idolitry) are 1) historical abuses of power and perversion of doctrine (like selling indulgences among other perversions) 2) the self righteous and dismissive nature of so many catholics towards any other faith.

The only people that KNOW they are God’s people are the Isrealites…try as you might to make some obscure reference seem like it is talking about the catholic church in some respect, but it is stated outright that the Jews are God’s choosen people…in fact, Jesus, Mary, and most of the apostles were Jews. That should be proof enough who his favorites are. You wanna play it safe? Try Jews for Jesus…safety net built right in both ways.