Questions from an Ex-Catholic

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I guess I just feel that a lot of things in the church are too black and white with no room for discussion, debate, question, or opinion. I feel like I don’t belong because I don’t agree with or believe everything the church teaches and I take a lot of the Bible with a grain of salt. This is why I can no longer call myself a Catholic, despite the fact that I still believe in God **and the teachings of Jesus…/**quote]

WELCOME to CAF Free_thinker, from a former agnostic (aka gutless atheist) who sometimes used the term “free thinker” in describing himself.

I emphasized that last phrase of yours to say Jesus was a pretty “black and white” guy–He was a moral and spiritual absolutist if there ever was one. The greatest support for Hell and eternal damnation comes from Him (the only hints of universal salvation come from Paul and those only if you cherry-pick verses out of context) The greatest support for the Real Presense comes from Him–as well as the establishment of a heirarchal Church that would always definetly teach the TRUTH about faith and morals.

Message me if you wish–again, Welcome 👍
 
Hello Free Thinker!
Again, greetings for joining us at Catholic Answers Forum (CAF). Weather you feel it or not, the Holy Spirit by definition is nudging you “back home”. But it is a nudge, not a shove or a push. Your free will will not be compromised in this matter—and that is at the heart of our Savior’s teaching on Hell.
I’ve not had the time to go through all of the forum thread, but undoubtedly you’ve read some incredible sounding things, like “a soul chooses Hell” and “Hell is populated by volunteers”. I know they would have sounded incredible, even horrible to me in former years. I think any believer in his right mind does NOT find the concept of Hell enjoyable—at most, only understandable, even necessary.
God is still with every soul and every being in Hell, because God is both Immanent and Transcendent—even to the Enemy. But every being in Hell has found the sensible presence of God to be hateful to its own self-love and self-absorption. Whatever “pains” there may be in Hell are nothing compared to the pains a being would suffer who hates God and who would be forced to be within Gods presence. God’s mercy is withdrawing everything that soul hates, leaving the soul to its own self love.
Our Lord’s metaphors of fire, worms, and garbage are just that—metaphors for a reality we only dimly comprehend right now. What is clear is there will be nothing in Hell that any soul or being in Heaven can feel sorry or regret for—why, as CS Lewis asked, should Heaven be held hostage to hell?
“The worship of one’s self is the worship of nothing—and the worship of nothing is the worship of hell”—Thomas Merton, Seeds of Contempletation.
 
Hello Everyone!

I think a lot of Christians under-estimate the power and wonder of a God who IS unconditional love and I firmly believe that God IS nothing but pure, unconditional love. I feel the church, however, paints quite a different picture. I feel like the church imposes too many human qualities to God, when God is definitely anything but human. I
I would advise you to listen to this podcast at youtube:

youtube.com/watch?v=z-I_A3iD69g&feature=relmfu

and the others in the series. You are so right in you the power and wonder of Christ who IS HERE. This is the first message of St Paul and the early Christians. Don’t bother too much with later additions and rephrasings of what is catholic or not.

It is really not the case that “the church paints quite a different picture” - it is your impression at a given point in time. Let that go and BE the church yourself in Christ.

Remember, Jesus was not a Christian, nor was he overly churchy.

Peter
 
The greatest support for Hell and eternal damnation comes from Him (the only hints of universal salvation come from Paul and those only if you cherry-pick verses out of context) The greatest support for the Real Presense comes from Him–as well as the establishment of a heirarchal Church that would always definetly teach the TRUTH about faith and morals.
The seven most authentic letters of St Paul are the most reliable sources for what the early Jesus-movement felt and thought. They are pretty close in time, 30s and 40s and 50s. The canonical gospels are much later writings, 70s and later, motivated by ideology and hierarchical organization of christians.

That can humiliate us a little when we talk about “the teaching of Christ”.

Peter
 
In a court of law, the prosecution presents EVIDENCE that is intended to prove it’s case. The prosecution cannot present PROOF without the ability to recreate the event in the presence of the jury in real time. The jury must be swayed and convinced by a preponderance of evidence in order to agree with the case presented. I, as part of the jury presented with evidence that people actually witnessed the events surrounding the formation of the Christian faith, believe that a witness who is willing to die before recanting their testimony, are the strongest form of evidence that their testimony is true. It is impossible to force someone to accept evidence as proof…regardless of the compelling nature of the evidence. As Christians, we believe we have a case. Have you examined the evidence? 🤷
Pismopal -

Believing takes faith, but not blind faith without reason. At the same time, scripture references people who’s hearts are “hardened”, who will not accept The Lord based on written scripture, history and reason. God gives us free will to love him. He reveals enough that we can choose through faith to love him back. If he revealed less, it would be difficult to impossible to love him back. If he revealed more, it would impair our free will to choose him as well.

I trust OT & NT scripture, church history and reason. The OT is fulfilled in the NT…the two books fit perfectly together. The history of the church is well documented, including 11 of the apostles and the first 20 popes being martyrs. The apostles spent 3 years continuously with Jesus and time with him after his resurrection. What did they believe? This explains why they died for their faith.

More proof…incorruptable saints…appearances of the Virgin Mary including Fatima. 70,000 people saw the miracle of the sun including major newspaper reporters. This miracle(s) is proof as well. Proof does not mean we had to be there.

Definition of Proof from merriam-webster below. The ones that have a hardened heart can not accept by the mind. It does not mean that the evidence is not there.

a : the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact
b : the process or an instance of establishing the validity of a statement especially by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning

:coffeeread:
 
The seven most authentic letters of St Paul are the most reliable sources for what the early Jesus-movement felt and thought. They are pretty close in time, 30s and 40s and 50s. The canonical gospels are much later writings, 70s and later, motivated by ideology and hierarchical organization of christians.

That can humiliate us a little when we talk about “the teaching of Christ”.

Peter
Careful here. You are stating your opinions as facts.
There are several issues with what you wrote above.

The biggest issue is that you state that the Gospels are motivated by ideology and hierarchical organization of Christians. This is clearly your own opinion and one that is not shared by the Church. The Church teaches that the entire Bible canon is inspired by the Holy Spirit and is all true and self consistent. Your statement has an agenda that is not in line with that way of thinking.

Secondly, you should not separate out Paul from the rest of the New Testament authors in the way that you did. Why is Paul’s view more authentic than John’s or James or Jude or In fact Peter’s, the first Pope. How did you come to this conclusion?

Third, you state as fact that the Gospels were written in the 70s or later. This is simply a theory. There is a credible alternative theory that places the Gospel of St. Matthew before 40AD, which would place it earlier than any of St. Paul’s writing. This is the commentary from the Catholic Encyclopedia on the subject:

Date and place of composition

Ancient ecclesiastical writers are at variance as to the date of the composition of the First Gospel. Eusebius (in his Chronicle), Theophylact, and Euthymius Zigabenus are of opinion that the Gospel of Matthew was written eight years, and Nicephorus Callistus fifteen years, after Christ’s Ascension–i.e. about A.D. 38-45. According to Eusebius, Matthew wrote his Gospel in Hebrew when he left Palestine. Now, following a certain tradition (admittedly not too reliable), the Apostles separated twelve years after the Ascension, hence the Gospel would have been written about the year 40-42, but following Eusebius (Church History III.5.2), it is possible to fix the definitive departure of the Apostles about the year 60, in which event the writing of the Gospel would have taken place about the year 60-68. St Irenæus is somewhat more exact concerning the date of the First Gospel, as he says: “Matthew produced his Gospel when Peter and Paul were evangelizing and founding the Church of Rome, consequently about the years 64-67.” However, this text presents difficulties of interpretation which render its meaning uncertain and prevent us from deducing any positive conclusion.

In our day opinion is rather divided. Catholic critics, in general, favour the years 40-45, although some (e.g. Patrizi) go back to 36-39 or (e.g. Aberle) to 37. Belser assigns 41-42; Conély, 40-50; Schafer, 50-51; Hug, Reuschl, Schanz, and Rose, 60-67. This last opinion is founded on the combined testimonies of St. Irenæus and Eusebius, and on the remark inserted parenthetically in the discourse of Jesus in chapter xxiv, 15: “When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place”: here the author interrupts the sentence and invites the reader to take heed of what follows, viz.: “Then they that are in Judea, let them flee to the mountains.” As there would have been no occasion for a like warning had the destruction of Jerusalem already taken place, Matthew must have written his Gospel before the year 70 (about 65-70 according to Batiffol). Protestant and Liberalistic critics also are greatly at variance as regards the time of the composition of the First Gospel. Zahn sets the date about 61-66, and Godet about 60-66; Keim, Meyer, Holtzmann (in his earlier writings), Beyschlag, and Maclean, before 70, Bartiet about 68-69; W. Allen and Plummer, about 65-75; Hilgenfeld and Holtzmann (in his later writings), soon after 70; B. Weiss and Harnack, about 70-75; Renan, later than 85, Réville, between 69 and 96, Jülicher, in 81-96, Montefiore, about 90-100, Volkmar, in 110; Baur, about 130-34. The following are some of the arguments advanced to prove that the First Gospel was written several years after the Fall of Jerusalem. When Jesus prophesies to His Apostles that they will be delivered up to the councils, scourged in the synagogues, brought before governors and kings for His sake; that they will give testimony of Him, will for Him be hated and driven from city to city (x, 17-23) and when He commissions them to teach all nations and make them His disciples, His words intimate, it is claimed, the lapse of many years, the establishment of the Christian Church in distant parts, and its cruel persecution by the Jews and even by Roman emperors and governors. Moreover, certain sayings of the Lord–such as: “Thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church” (16:18), “If he [thy brother] will not hear them: tell the Church” (xviii, 10)–carry us to a time when the Christian Church was already constituted, a time that could not have been much earlier than the year 100. The fact is, that what was predicted by Our Lord, when He announced future events and established the charter and foundations of His Church, is converted into reality and made coexistent with the writing of the First Gospel. Hence, to give these arguments a probatory value it would be necessary either to deny Christ’s knowledge of the future or to maintain that the teachings embodied in the First Gospel were not authentic.
newadvent.org/cathen/10057a.htm
 
I would advise you to listen to this podcast at youtube:

youtube.com/watch?v=z-I_A3iD69g&feature=relmfu

and the others in the series. You are so right in you the power and wonder of Christ who IS HERE. This is the first message of St Paul and the early Christians. Don’t bother too much with later additions and rephrasings of what is catholic or not.

It is really not the case that “the church paints quite a different picture” - it is your impression at a given point in time. Let that go and BE the church yourself in Christ.

Remember, Jesus was not a Christian, nor was he overly churchy.

Peter
The seven most authentic letters of St Paul are the most reliable sources for what the early Jesus-movement felt and thought. They are pretty close in time, 30s and 40s and 50s. The canonical gospels are much later writings, 70s and later, motivated by ideology and hierarchical organization of christians.

That can humiliate us a little when we talk about “the teaching of Christ”.

Peter
You are positing a great apostasy–that the early “Jesus movement” was correct and the supposedly later Church is not. Yet you say St. Paul is authoritative. Well, this is what he said:

[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 2:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]

Well… If Paul is correct then it is the will of God that there never be a loss of the truth. Therefore there can be no difference between the early “Way” and the Church. So you’re wrong. Period.
 
The seven most authentic letters of St Paul are the most reliable sources for what the early Jesus-movement felt and thought. They are pretty close in time, 30s and 40s and 50s. The canonical gospels are much later writings, 70s and later, motivated by ideology and hierarchical organization of christians.

That can humiliate us a little when we talk about “the teaching of Christ”.

Peter
When people cite “late composition” of the gospels they are repeating “academic habit”, not really reasoned positions. As I put it in a footnote on my exegesis of John 6:
“. …The claim of “Late Composition” of the Gospels and Epistles (along with other largely unsupported theories, such as “Q”, “Markan priority”, “community composition, and “psuedographic authorship”) is more of an inherited habit of modern (after 1800) New Testament scholarship than a matter of evidence-based findings. The bias to “de-mythologize” the New Testament (e.g., remove supernatural events and claims) was born from the irreligious motives of the Enlightenment-era’s Deist “scholars”, called “scientific”, and passed on as secular orthodoxy. These largely unexamined guiding assumptions penetrated mainstream Protestant seminaries in the later 19th century (provoking in reaction the Fundamentalist movement) and after the “anti-modernism oath” was revoked by the Vatican in the 1950s, it entered into Catholic theology schools as well. Many very orthodox Catholic scholars cite Late Composition dates because that is what they were taught from their professors (many of them either secular or liberal Protestants) and because supporting a more traditional dating and authorship is seen as “uncritical”. However, “uncritical” seems to be the very attitude of modernist scholars towards the theories of “Late Composition” and the rest of their inherited traditions.”
 
When people cite “late composition” of the gospels they are repeating “academic habit”, not really reasoned positions. As I put it in a footnote on my exegesis of John 6:
“. …The claim of “Late Composition” of the Gospels and Epistles (along with other largely unsupported theories, such as “Q”, “Markan priority”, “community composition, and “psuedographic authorship”) is more of an inherited habit of modern (after 1800) New Testament scholarship than a matter of evidence-based findings. The bias to “de-mythologize” the New Testament (e.g., remove supernatural events and claims) was born from the irreligious motives of the Enlightenment-era’s Deist “scholars”, called “scientific”, and passed on as secular orthodoxy. These largely unexamined guiding assumptions penetrated mainstream Protestant seminaries in the later 19th century (provoking in reaction the Fundamentalist movement) and after the “anti-modernism oath” was revoked by the Vatican in the 1950s, it entered into Catholic theology schools as well. Many very orthodox Catholic scholars cite Late Composition dates because that is what they were taught from their professors (many of them either secular or liberal Protestants) and because supporting a more traditional dating and authorship is seen as “uncritical”. However, “uncritical” seems to be the very attitude of modernist scholars towards the theories of “Late Composition” and the rest of their inherited traditions.”
I agree. the fundamental reason for late composition (post 70 AD) was that they wished to put them beyond the year of the destruction of Jerusalem, about which Jesus prophesied in the synoptic Gospels. In this way, they sought to undermine the divinity of Jesus, which of course would have additional support if he correctly identified the destruction of Jerusalem before it happened. To validate this argument, they needed to create a Marcan primacy argument and for that they had to create a new source of information they called Q. Of course, it bends credibility that such an important source of information that was available to both Matthew and Luke was never discussed prior to the late 1800s by anyone and has never been found.

To me, I find it hard to believe that Marcan primacy is true, when it was the stated Tradition of the church for over 1800 years that Matthew was the first gospel (hence its placement in the Canon) and the Marcan primacy argument has the Q problem to overcome…

Why is this important to the discussion of the existence of Hell? Well, it goes to the credibility of the Gospel sources
 
I am giving you objective evidence that Christianity is true: Pagan Rome lost against pacifist Christians who were martyred by the thousands.

There is no comparable event in any other religion. You cannot say “well every religion has voluntary conversions” and use that to explain away this event because no other religion has won a revolutionary war in which only the bad guys were fighting.

Put down the red herrings.
You only gave evidence that enough people found Christianity more compelling than pagan beliefs, and believed it strongly enough, that they overcame tremendous resistance. Unless you can show evidence of divine intervention, you’re only demonstrating belief, not truth.

The fact that no comparable event has occurred is irrelevant.
 
You only gave evidence that enough people found Christianity more compelling than pagan beliefs, and believed it strongly enough, that they overcame tremendous resistance. Unless you can show evidence of divine intervention, you’re only demonstrating belief, not truth.
They didn’t even try to overcome. They didn’t fight back. They won anyway. You keep glossing over that.

Your lack of response to the last post is also very telling. That post proves the victory is a divine response based on deduction of the type used in courtrooms every day. Well, at least you have a good excuse to get out of jury service… You reject the judicial system.
The fact that no comparable event has occurred is irrelevant.
Why not? Because you are the great and powerful Oz and you say so?
 
Because it is impossible.

Let’s say I am investigating a murder in a small town. The murder occurred in a bank vault and the victim is a security officer who had gone into the vault and locked it–although not before forgetting to reset the security DVR, so there’s no video. The vault was forced open. Well, that narrows the list of suspects considerably. I only have to investigate people who can bench press a ginormous number or those who have access to industrial strength machinery. But you, defense attorney, say that I can never prove that your client, Mr. Laid-Off ExOlympian (who used to work in a steel factory), did it because I don’t have any observers that actually saw him break in. Too bad–he is guilty because anybody in that jury box can deduce that of everyone in that town, only one guy has the manner, means and motive.
Can you point me to any scholarly works which dismiss all other possible causes (political, social, economic forces) and conclude that the event was due to divine intervention? I would be most interested in reading them.
 
Can you point me to any scholarly works which dismiss all other possible causes (political, social, economic forces) and conclude that the event was due to divine intervention? I would be most interested in reading them.
There you go retreating into your Eurocentric White Anglo Saxon apostate-Protestant protective bubble (which you, er, your parents paid for with an overpriced college loan) because Jesus makes you uncomfortable. If I show you any academic source that is not a Eurocentric White Anglo Saxon apostate-Protestant (hereinafter “EWASaP”), you will reject it because it is not from a EWASaP. So I’m not going to play your game.

Instead, let’s go through each of your claims about other causes.

Economic. We’re talking about martyrs. You can’t take it with you, as they say. So money had zilch to do with it.
**Social. **Again, we’re talking about martyrs. You can’t take your social status with you either.
Political. Obviously the martyrs are not dying for political gain. As with money and social status, you can’ t take that with you. However, as you probably know, the Christian persecution is ended by Constantine the Great. He is initially a pagan. He gets dragged into the revolution that followed the fall of the Tetrarchy when his father, who was an imperial claimant, died. So Constantine fights his cousin-in-law Maxentius for the throne–while both of them are still pagan and Christians are still dying.

THEN, and only then, does Constantine convert to Christianity, formally declaring that he was a Christian after he had turned 42 years old. In the meantime all his coins and statutuary were all pagan.

So Christianity had nothing to do with beginning the war for the imperial succession. That was already going on among the pagans before Christianity even enters into the picture. What we do know is Constantine saw the witness of hundreds of thousands of martyred Christians, spontaneously converted, and then won the war. Constantine’s sword was already raised before his conversion and he would have fought Maxentius with or without his religious conversion. But what is also apparent is that Constantine’s soldiers were mostly pagan, and Constantine’s conversion could have caused them all to desert. Constantine had nothing to gain economically or politically by his conversion–he was already a wealthy and popular prince–and his conversion could have cost him everything. But it did not. In fact, the whole army converted, when they could have just as easily denounced Constantine as an apostate and proceed to join Maxentius, which they would have been obligated to do under Roman law.

Imagine Adolph Hitler witnessing the martyrdom of the Jews at his death camps, spontaneously converting to Judaism as a result, joining the alliance with his forces intact (no desertion!), and then invading Japan with the Luftwaffe to end the war. Of course you can’t imagine that. But that is what happened with Constantine. As I said, nothing like that has ever happened in human history–it’s just impossible–but it happened anyway.

And now, we interrupt this thread to bring you a message from the Pope that is relevant to your question: Faith and reason are not in conflict but complement each other. So there you have it, your academic source.
 
Can you point me to any scholarly works which dismiss all other possible causes (political, social, economic forces) and conclude that the event was due to divine intervention? I would be most interested in reading them.
There you go retreating into your Eurocentric White Anglo Saxon apostate-Protestant protective bubble. If I show you any academic source that is not a Eurocentric White Anglo Saxon apostate-Protestant (hereinafter “EWASaP”), you will reject it because it is not from a EWASaP, since your parents paid megabucks to send you to a “college” that taught you to ignore the rest of the world and listen only to EWASaPs. (No offense intended. The same thing happened to me.) So I’m not going to play your game because I’ve already played it and the ending is that everyone loses.

Instead, let’s pop the expensive bubble and go through each of your claims about other causes.

Economic. We’re talking about martyrs. You can’t take it with you, as they say. So money had zilch to do with it.
**Social. **Again, we’re talking about martyrs. You can’t take your social status with you either.
Political. Obviously the martyrs are not dying for political gain. As with money and social status, you can’ t take that with you. However, as you probably know, the Christian persecution is ended by Constantine the Great. He is initially a pagan. He gets dragged into the revolution that followed the fall of the Tetrarchy when his father, who was an imperial claimant, died. So Constantine fights his cousin-in-law Maxentius for the throne–while both of them are still pagan and Christians are still dying.

THEN, and only then, does Constantine convert to Christianity, formally declaring that he was a Christian after he had turned 42 years old. In the meantime all his coins and statutuary were all pagan.

So Christianity had nothing to do with beginning the war for the imperial succession. That was already going on among the pagans before Christianity even enters into the picture. What we do know is Constantine saw the witness of hundreds of thousands of martyred Christians, spontaneously converted, and then won the war. Constantine’s sword was already raised before his conversion and he would have fought Maxentius with or without his religious conversion. But what is also apparent is that Constantine’s soldiers were mostly pagan, and Constantine’s conversion could have caused them all to desert. Constantine had nothing to gain economically or politically by his conversion–he was already a wealthy and popular prince–and his conversion could have cost him everything. But it did not. In fact, the whole army converted, when they could have just as easily denounced Constantine as an apostate and proceed to join Maxentius, which they would have been obligated to do under Roman law.

Imagine Adolph Hitler witnessing the martyrdom of the Jews at his death camps, spontaneously converting to Judaism as a result, joining the alliance with his forces intact (no desertion!), and then invading Japan with the Luftwaffe to end the war–with the result of removing the Pacific campaign and the use of the A-bomb from history, thus saving millions of lives. Of course you can’t imagine that. It’s too good to be real. But that is what happened with Constantine. As I said, nothing like that has ever happened in human history–it’s just impossible–but it happened anyway. There is no other reasonable explanation out there besides God.

And now, we interrupt this thread to bring you a message from the Pope that is relevant to your question: Faith and reason are not in conflict but complement each other. So there you have it, your academic source.
 
Back to the original post, I would like to add something less theological and more personal.
  1. One of the biggest problems I have with Catholicism (as well as other Christian religions) is the concept of Hell. I think a lot of Christians under-estimate the power and wonder of a God who IS unconditional love and I firmly believe that God IS nothing but pure, unconditional love. I feel the church, however, paints quite a different picture. I feel like the church imposes too many human qualities to God, when God is definitely anything but human. I believe within this pure and endless source of unconditional love that is God that no one can and ever will be completely separate from him, nor will he judge anyone. Saying you will go to Hell because you don’t follow him or the church or Jesus or any of other myriad of sins someone could possibly commit doesn’t add up in my book. A truly unconditional God loves you no matter what, even if you don’t ask for forgiveness, don’t believe, or outright reject him.
From my point of view which is still young in the Catholic faith, Hell is a complete separation from God. We were given free will so we choose to come close to God or to pull away. Because we all sin and not all of us go to Hell it must not be an act (or acts) of sin alone that decide where you go. Sin draws us farther from God but I don’t know how much takes you how far. And if you love God, or perhaps you don’t believe in God but you have that inborn sense of right and wrong the Catechism talks about and you believe in and love goodness it makes sense that you would would sin considerably less than someone who loves pain and misery (sounds ridiculous but I’ve read a lot of true crime and watch weird documentaries sometimes and people like that are out there). And you would feel remorse for wrong acts and you would want to or perhaps would make reparations.
  1. Why do Catholics/Christians believe that the Bible is free of error and flaw when human beings have written it? It’s also a book that has been translated from ancient languages in a way different time and place than we are in now. Do you ever feel that some parts of it were lost in translation, or even edited or downright tailored to those who had a hidden agenda in the past? I mean, I think it takes a lot more faith in our fellow man to trust everything the Bible says than faith in God.
I’ve looked at a lot of different Bibles from different denominations. A lot of them contain footnotes on where changes were made and why - I’ve even seen one that was written in our current language as though a modern author wrote it. It does claim that it is what it is and why it was written that way. I just bought a Catholic Study Bible that has a LOT of information in it that is pretty amazing. I’ve also listened to quite a few theologians and Bible scholars that explain certain translations from different languages. For instance, I forgot the Hebrew words, but they have two for creator. They have Creator, which is only used in reference to God because it is one who has created something out of nothing, which only God can do. Then there is creator, which applies to man, because we create new things from preexisting substances. For questions like that I would highly recommend going to a good scripture study at a local Catholic church. When I went they put it in the historical context, mentioned the author or likely author(s), and also went into depth on meanings that may be slightly different in translation - the Creator/creator one I actually got in scripture study.
  1. How can religion in general be a valid concept when everyone claims their religion is “the truth”? Isn’t religion also just a manmade concept that people tailor their own beliefs and interpretations around? In the end, aren’t all religions basically acknowledging a higher power? Who is right and who is wrong? Is there even such a thing as right or wrong?
    .
This one I wrestled with for a while even after becoming confirmed. Even though my parents were atheists, as a small child I had a sense that there was something in us that connected us to the world around us and the universe we’re in that went beyond chemical reactions throughout life controlling what we do and ceasing to exist with our bodies turning into worm food after death. I read really bad occult things initially at a very young age which is weird in retrospect, moved on to neopaganism, and found the most peace in buddhism and some hinduism for several years. Going back to the first question - I read quite a bit on and by the Dalai Lama and Thich Nhat Hanh and thought to myself there’s no way those guys are going to Hell. While I can’t judge the state of a man’s soul if they are what they seem to be and don’t have some crazy secret life no one knows about, I find it highly unlikely they will. But I just happened to listen to an audio download from EWTN’s library and this question came up. The wife of Dietrich von Hildebrand was speaking with Fr. Mitch Pacwa S.J. (I forget her first name) and she said Jesus is the only one who said I am the way, the truth, and the life - men of other religions did not, such as The Buddha and Muhammad. She also said (and I’ve heard similar things from other people) that either he was telling the truth, or he is the most despicable liar the world has ever seen. As for whether we believe it or not is up to our faith. By the way there is a huge selection of audio series on the EWTN website that are free to download, you might find those interesting.
 
Can you point me to any scholarly works which dismiss all other possible causes (political, social, economic forces) and conclude that the event was due to divine intervention? I would be most interested in reading them.
What would be acceptable credentials for someone who’s scholarly works you would accept? Would you exempt the works of a believer? If so, you have predefined your answer because if someone did “scholarly works” that showed the event was due to divine intervention, that person would have to become a believer or acknowledge that their own work wasn’t credible.

For what its worth, Constantine himself thought that his victory at Milvian Bridge was due to divine help from the Christian God and led directly to his ultimate conversion. This is well documented even in non-Christian literature. An example: militaryhistory.about.com/od/battleswarsto1000/p/milvianbridge.htm
 
Pismopal -

Believing takes faith, but not blind faith without reason. At the same time, scripture references people who’s hearts are “hardened”, who will not accept The Lord based on written scripture, history and reason. God gives us free will to love him. He reveals enough that we can choose through faith to love him back. If he revealed less, it would be difficult to impossible to love him back. If he revealed more, it would impair our free will to choose him as well.

I trust OT & NT scripture, church history and reason. The OT is fulfilled in the NT…the two books fit perfectly together. The history of the church is well documented, including 11 of the apostles and the first 20 popes being martyrs. The apostles spent 3 years continuously with Jesus and time with him after his resurrection. What did they believe? This explains why they died for their faith.

More proof…incorruptable saints…appearances of the Virgin Mary including Fatima. 70,000 people saw the miracle of the sun including major newspaper reporters. This miracle(s) is proof as well. Proof does not mean we had to be there.

Definition of Proof from merriam-webster below. The ones that have a hardened heart can not accept by the mind. It does not mean that the evidence is not there.

a : the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact
b : the process or an instance of establishing the validity of a statement especially by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning

:coffeeread:
Dear friend…you are preaching to the choir which might be an idictment of my ability to clearly define my ideas…or something:shrug: God bless:)
 
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