Questions from an Ex-Catholic

[empther]

Cat herder,

I like your comments on

1 Timothy 2:3-4 (Douay Rheims)

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

As you said or implied, in different words,

God would not let the early Catholic Church lose its way, become apostate, or adopt false doctrines since people with have no chance to be saved when in darkness.

Of course, some Protestants claim they’ve rediscovered Christ’s original truths.
Oh, really? How would they do that? In fact, it’s impossible. You have it and keep it forever, or else, you have it lose it and never recover it. Witness the Protestants themselves. Over 28,000 denominations and counting.

 

[free_thinker]

This. This is where I think the real problem is at, because in those words “I feel like I don’t belong”, you are highlighting a major thing which I believe a lot of Catholics struggle with - making others feel welcome. Sometimes we can get so caught up in the ‘rights and wrongs’ of the faith, that we lose sight of the first thing Jesus asks us to do, love one another (although sometimes love is not the form we expect it to take, it can be a tough form of love at times). Ultimately we can know everything in the Catechism and what the Church teaches, but if we aren’t sharing it in a loving way then we are making no progress towards bringing others to Christ (One can not force their opinion on another, merely provide discussion so that the other may come to the conclusion themselves (with God’s grace)).

All I can say is you do belong in His Church, It is natural to be skeptical about things at times, we all have our doubts, and a lot of us want to know things for certain. I think it is important to remember that we are all sinners, ultimately we are going to fail from time to time at making others feel welcome, but I would encourage you to keep seeking after these answers despite that. Don’t let the temptation that you don’t belong keep you from Him, because He wants each and everyone of us to be with Him more than we can possibly imagine.

You have hit the nail on the head with this post and I thank you for such a kind and thoughtful response. I feel like the church is so hung up on the rights and wrongs, the good and bad, and sin. I feel like this forum especially dwells on homosexuals, abortion, sex, birth control, and in going through so many of these posts I feel a lot also show a lot of judging and in some cases some outright hate. What I haven’t seen is much love for our fellow man, unless of course that person happens to be someone who shares the same beliefs as they do. We are all sons and daughters of God and we are all one in the same. If we hurt someone, we are not just hurting them… we are hurting the whole human race and ultimately ourselves and our close loved ones. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

What I would like to see (and maybe I should do this myself) are threads that talk about what you did today to make the world a little better of a place. Its not so much that you have to go to church and or even believe in the church, but to BE the church. Be the change that you want to see in the world by leading by example. My only goal in life is to make a positive difference in others lives through selflessness, charity, compliments, compassion, and a general love of others. I just feel like this forum has much negativity in it, and I think its time that we focus on the positive.

 

[davidv]

You have hit the nail on the head with this post and I thank you for such a kind and thoughtful response. I feel like the church is so hung up on the rights and wrongs, the good and bad, and sin.

If sin is going to be the cause of losing our inheritance to eternal life in heaven, why should Church shy away speaking out against those who are trying to convince others that there is no such thing as sin?

I feel like this forum especially dwells on homosexuals, abortion, sex, birth control, and in going through so many of these posts I feel a lot also show a lot of judging and in some cases some outright hate.

How many of these thread are started by those attacking the Church?

What I haven’t seen is much love for our fellow man, unless of course that person happens to be someone who shares the same beliefs as they do.

Are you equating what goes on in this forum the sum and substance of the Church?

We are all sons and daughters of God and we are all one in the same. If we hurt someone, we are not just hurting them… we are hurting the whole human race and ultimately ourselves and our close loved ones. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

Agreed. Those who follow the Church teaching will be obedient to the great commandments to love God and neighbor.

What I would like to see (and maybe I should do this myself) are threads that talk about what you did today to make the world a little better of a place. Its not so much that you have to go to church and or even believe in the church, but to BE the church. Be the change that you want to see in the world by leading by example. My only goal in life is to make a positive difference in others lives through selflessness, charity, compliments, compassion, and a general love of others. I just feel like this forum has much negativity in it, and I think its time that we focus on the positive.

It is quite hard to be positive when so much of what is in the forefront, via the media, is horribly negative.

Often the negativity searches out this forum.

 

[Cat_Herder]

You have hit the nail on the head with this post and I thank you for such a kind and thoughtful response. I feel like the church is so hung up on the rights and wrongs, the good and bad, and sin. I feel like this forum especially dwells on homosexuals, abortion, sex, birth control, and in going through so many of these posts I feel a lot also show a lot of judging and in some cases some outright hate. What I haven’t seen is much love for our fellow man, unless of course that person happens to be someone who shares the same beliefs as they do. We are all sons and daughters of God and we are all one in the same. If we hurt someone, we are not just hurting them… we are hurting the whole human race and ultimately ourselves and our close loved ones. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

It’s hard for you to make the world better for a child to grow up in when the child is dead. It is the fact that the child is dead that is negative, not our criticism of abortion.

 

[ArchangeMichel]

About Hell…

The Trinity so love Every human being that He will be in Hell to cure all of them until they go to Heaven. He will be the last to enter in Heaven because He Loves the very last of the Multitude.

It is so because none can imagine the deep and the grasp of His Love.

For a Lover, Heaven is to be with his loved one.

A mother can’t be happy in Heaven without her son, independently of what he has said or done. How much more God Loves Each one of us?

God judgment Is Love. Love Saves.

That is the good news!

 

[Pilosopo]

I guess I just feel that a lot of things in the church are too black and white with no room for discussion, debate, question, or opinion. I feel like I don’t belong because I don’t agree with or believe everything the church teaches and I take a lot of the Bible with a grain of salt. This is why I can no longer call myself a Catholic, despite the fact that I still believe in God and the teachings of Jesus. If there is one thing I miss about the church it was the sense of community. Because my beliefs span across many different philosophies and religions, I feel like an outcast at times with no one to really talk or discuss with.

I’m sorry you feel that way. Catholics are a mix bag, but God still loves us. I guess that is my most fundamental belief. For me, beyond being correct, beyond holding The Truth, beyond living the upright life, is a grasp, a deep understanding and acceptance that God loves me. Perhaps in that sense, more than you finding God in His religion, may God find you… all the best.

 

[susanprieve]

Hello there!

I hadn’t read most of your original post when I felt like I had once written it myself many years ago so instead of directly answering your questions I thought I’d share my own experience (and what led me back to the faith )

A few years ago I myself became disillusioned with the teachings of the Church, viewing them as mean, cruel, and unfathomable (especially in regards to gay marriage, etc.) As a result I stopped going to Church, etc. though I still very much believed in God and in our savior and decided to try to just live out my life as Jesus would without any “Church mumbo jumbo” as I called it at the time. I didn’t even live that immoral of life for the most part (especially in regards to sexual sins, etc.) Then about a year later I started seeing somebody who I lost my virginity to. Looking back on it now I never should have gone through with it and, for that matter, should never have wanted the relationship (sometimes it was anightmare that I never realized until a couple of years afterwards). The worst part is that I knew what I was doing was a mortal sin and . The real came when she suspected that she was pregnant. That absolutely scared the hell out of me, literally. I knew what she’d probably do if she was and actually went into a church and prayed to God that she wasn’t pregnant. Thankfully she wasn’t, but even that wasn’t enough to convince me to change my ways. My life gradually began to fall apart piece by piece over the next few months (though this was caused by a variety of factors).

So what brought me back to the faith? I was put on anti-depressants for about a couple of weeks and they did nothing for me. Until one night I was in my dorm room in college when it happened. It suddenly hit me that what I had done the past year and a half had put my soul in such grave danger of going to hell if I were to die right there and then. So in a way almost “overnight” I became a changed person. I almost immediately set out to find out what else I had done wrong, been wrong about, etc. After some time (and battling bad bouts of scrupulosity) I came to discover that I had not learned the full truth/teachings/etc. about my faith. And yes some were difficult to comprehend and understand at first, but some also pleasantly surprised me. And in the end, I gained so much knowledge about my faith that I’ve been able to live more of a true Catholic life than I ever had before. And for that I am very grateful for

I guess the point I’m trying to convey is that sometimes our own personal “cross” that we have to bear is our lack of understanding of our faith and of why certain things are what they are. But we shouldn’t feel discouraged by this. Rather we should take such an opportunity to grow in spirit and in virtue. I can’t imagine what my life would be right now had I not returned to the church.

I hope this helps in some way. Take care and God bless

I want to thank you for reaching out with such a sincere and caring response. Your post was so sweet. God bless you.

 

[JerryZ]

Absent any observable physical proof, which I realize isn’t part of the Real Presence dogma, the only thing that would convince me would be hearing it directly from God or some other supernatural source. And I don’t mean that facetiously - for a claim so extraordinary and so far outside our experience and comprehension, I can honestly say that no lesser standard of evidence would be credible to me.

So you basically want Jesus to come back and do it all over for your own personal plasure

I guess that will not happen any time soon

Hope you enjoy a happy life, we will pray for you!

 

[Gorgias]

So you basically want Jesus to come back and do it all over for your own personal plasure

That was my initial reaction, too. But, what’s really in play is this: why is this a reasonable standard of proof? I mean, we don’t say “general relativity is unbelievable! Unless Einstein came back and convinced me of it, I cannot assent to it – after all, a claim so extraordinary and so far outside our experience and comprehension, I can honestly say that no lesser standard of evidence would be credible to me”…!

 

[Nan_S]

Absent any observable physical proof, which I realize isn’t part of the Real Presence dogma, the only thing that would convince me would be hearing it directly from God or some other supernatural source. And I don’t mean that facetiously - for a claim so extraordinary and so far outside our experience and comprehension, I can honestly say that no lesser standard of evidence would be credible to me.

Even if you DID hear directly from God or some other supernatural source, would you accept that the source was legitimate? What criteria would you use to decide whether the messenger or the message was real?

It’s easy to say you’ll accept extraordinary evidence. But I find that most people who make that statement have set the bar so high that no kind of evidence will ever be good enough, and anything presented is either dismissed as inadequate or given an alternate explanation.

What kind of extraordinary evidence would be good enough for you? How would you be convinced that God or another supernatural source is genuine and therefore worthy of delivering any message?

 

[ExCatholicGuy]

So you basically want Jesus to come back and do it all over for your own personal plasure

I guess that will not happen any time soon

Hope you enjoy a happy life, we will pray for you!

I don’t even know whether Jesus was the son of God, and if he was, whether he really did and said the things which the Church claims, and whether he meant them in the way the Church interprets them. The evidence is thin.

 

[grannymh]

1. Why do Catholics/Christians believe that the Bible is free of error and flaw when human beings have written it? It’s also a book that has been translated from ancient languages in a way different time and place than we are in now. Do you ever feel that some parts of it were lost in translation, or even edited or downright tailored to those who had a hidden agenda in the past? I mean, I think it takes a lot more faith in our fellow man to trust everything the Bible says than faith in God.

This may surprise a lot of Catholics. So be it.

Not every verse in Scripture is automatically transformed into Catholic Doctrines.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I don’t even know whether Jesus was the son of God, and if he was, whether he really did and said the things which the Church claims, and whether he meant them in the way the Church interprets them. The evidence is thin.

Pagan Rome waged war on unarmed Christians for hundreds of years, killed them by the thousands, and yet was unable to exterminate them–and ultimately converted to Christianity. The world’s greatest superpower being thwarted by the hand of God… is that what you call “thin”?

 

[guanophore]

You have hit the nail on the head with this post and I thank you for such a kind and thoughtful response. I feel like the church is so hung up on the rights and wrongs, the good and bad, and sin. I feel like this forum especially dwells on homosexuals, abortion, sex, birth control, and in going through so many of these posts I feel a lot also show a lot of judging and in some cases some outright hate. What I haven’t seen is much love for our fellow man, unless of course that person happens to be someone who shares the same beliefs as they do. We are all sons and daughters of God and we are all one in the same. If we hurt someone, we are not just hurting them… we are hurting the whole human race and ultimately ourselves and our close loved ones. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

I have had lots of problems not feeling welcome in parishes and gatherings. Catholics seem to have such a hard time with just “fellowship”. My yearning to belong to a community let me to frequent Protestant ecclesial communties for 20 some years. In the end I had to accept that clinging to Jesus as He has revealed Himself in His One Church was the most important thing, more than feeling included and wanted.

It would not be prudent to judge the love in the Church by your expereince on an apologetics forum. People come here on purpose for debate and expect to have friction. It is a place where conflict about different beliefs is part of the ministry. If you want to see what Catholics are doing to love their fellowman, go to one of the ministries and volunteer, like St. Vincent de Paul or another Catholic Charity. There you will find love in action. I am not saying that people engaged in apologetics should not be loving, but we are here to exchange ideas and confront ideologies and doctrines.

What I would like to see (and maybe I should do this myself) are threads that talk about what you did today to make the world a little better of a place.

Yes you will find much more of this on the spirituality and prayer request threads.

Its not so much that you have to go to church and or even believe in the church, but to BE the church. Be the change that you want to see in the world by leading by example. My only goal in life is to make a positive difference in others lives through selflessness, charity, compliments, compassion, and a general love of others. I just feel like this forum has much negativity in it, and I think its time that we focus on the positive.

I am sure you will be able to find what you see elsewhere, free.

 

[PoorKnight]

You have hit the nail on the head with this post and I thank you for such a kind and thoughtful response. I feel like the church is so hung up on the rights and wrongs, the good and bad, and sin. I feel like this forum especially dwells on homosexuals, abortion, sex, birth control, and in going through so many of these posts I feel a lot also show a lot of judging and in some cases some outright hate. What I haven’t seen is much love for our fellow man, unless of course that person happens to be someone who shares the same beliefs as they do. We are all sons and daughters of God and we are all one in the same. If we hurt someone, we are not just hurting them… we are hurting the whole human race and ultimately ourselves and our close loved ones. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

What I would like to see (and maybe I should do this myself) are threads that talk about what you did today to make the world a little better of a place. Its not so much that you have to go to church and or even believe in the church, but to BE the church. Be the change that you want to see in the world by leading by example. My only goal in life is to make a positive difference in others lives through selflessness, charity, compliments, compassion, and a general love of others. I just feel like this forum has much negativity in it, and I think its time that we focus on the positive.

Dear Free Thinker,

I had a lot of the same thoughts / beliefs you’re having now. I want to encourage you to search for Truth where-ever that may lead you.

I"d just like to address something you’ve mentioned here: that you want to make the world a little better place. All Catholics say AMEN!

But let me ask you: on what do you base what makes the world “better”? Is it YOUR OWN understanding of “better” and “worse”?

Have you based your idea on T.V. shows, Movies etc?

I saw at one point that you believe in Jesus Christ. AWESOME!! But how much do you believe in Him? Do you believe what He says? How much of what He says have you read, re-read and let change you?

One thing Christ did say is that He was going to build a Church. He said of that Church that the gates of Hell would not prevail against her [the Church]. He said of her, that those who listen to her listen to Him. Do you believe in Christ enough to believe His Words?

Do you want to hear Christ speaking to you?

Also, you seem to have gotten the idea that the Catholic Church is cold, unfeeling, judgemental and even hateful. That is the world’s (as portrayed in TV, Movies, News reports etc) view of the Catholic Church. IT IS NOT THE TRUTH.

PLEASE READ HER TEACHINGS FOR YOURSELF. There is no harm done, is there? I mean, if she’s wrong, then you’ll plainly see it. But don’t base your opionion of her on incomplete (or false) information.

The Church is anything but cold, judgemental, hateful and unfeeling. The Sacrament of Reconciliation, alone, (let alone the other 6 Sacraments) shows that! Where else can you get the assurance of being absolved from ANY WRONG-DOING! AMEN!

The Church is far from hateful. Yes, she points out where people have done wrong things - that’s part of making the world a better place (is that part of your making the world a better place, to love people SO MUCH that you’re willing to tell them they are wrong?)

The Church LOVES all people! (Individuals inside the Church are fallen humans and with that comes the temptations to be judegemental and hateful, but, again, we help eachother to make of ourselves a holy people). And after that we walk along side them, love them and lovingly ask them to “repent and believe the Good News!” - perhaps you remember that from Ash Wednesday?

What you have mistaken as being “judgemental” is the Church merely LOVING people. As part of LOVING them she must sometimes correct them (do parents discipline their children? Do you think it is because they like to see kids in pain? No, it is out of the desire to see the child become the best they can be and therefore make a TRUELY possitive difference in the world!

How many lives of the Saints have you studies? No not the cliche stories you were told as a kid growing up (Hey this one guy talked to a Turkey and healed it’s leg He’s a Saint!!) But the REAL LIVES of the Saints?

The Wants, Desires, Concerns and Dreams of the Saints ARE VERY CLOSE TO YOUR OWN especially that second paragraph of yours I quoted above. Read them! Study them! They made a profoundly possitive difference in the world! Let their lives guide you so that you too can make a profoundly possitive difference in the world!

Thank you for pointing out our human tendency to focus on the negative more often than we should. We should be a more joyful people, but this world keeps dragging us down… But despite that, we live, we love, we follow Christ!

May God Bless you, May Christ draw you and May the Holy Spirit Guide you on your Journey!! (Emmeth until the Amen! - Look up the meanings of those words)

Nate (a poor knight of Christ)
:Signofcross:

 

[Miriam1947]

I would also recommend the Sinner’s Guide for somebody lax in their faith, however I think one should avoid it if one is scrupulous or easily discouraged. If you are neither you will get a lot out of it.

I went to your website. It is very hard to read. And I would love to read it.

How about changing the type to black and the background to white?

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I guess I just feel that a lot of things in the church are too black and white with no room for discussion, debate, question, or opinion. I feel like I don’t belong because I don’t agree with or believe everything the church teaches and I take a lot of the Bible with a grain of salt. This is why I can no longer call myself a Catholic, despite the fact that I still believe in God and the teachings of Jesus. If there is one thing I miss about the church it was the sense of community. Because my beliefs span across many different philosophies and religions, I feel like an outcast at times with no one to really talk or discuss with.

FT if you are still following this thread I would like to add more but this is enough for now.
You are a girl after my own heart and I have grappled with the same issues you enuntiate from my youth until now.

A few pointers that may or may not make sense to you which may help you plot a further course within the Catholic Church:
(1) We are saved more by God’s faith in us than our faith in God.
(2) Faith is not, finally, a set of conceptual beliefs but a trajectory of heart based actions (yes one may have to walk in intellectual darkness and even contradiction)
(3) The cosmos is witness to two presences of God, to two births, not one. The first we have is of “right” (and hence God exists in hell) but the truly wise find it insufficient. The second is a pure gift and God may justly give it or not give it. Such is the nature of friendship. I am not being unjust or cruel to you if I do not wish to offer you my friendship…especially if you are the sort of person whom I can see would in the end not respect or value my trust in you.
(4) The Cosmos knows nothing of this 2nd birth - not even Buddha. One does not know friendship until it is freely offered from “the other side.” And when it is offered it always comes “from out of the blue”. We call this Revelation. It is outside of our natural “cosmos” yet when experienced we know immediately it is the fulfillment of what the Cosmos was actually made for.
(5) Yes, I too accept the name “god” (or God as the just Judge) is often used as an anthropromorphic personification for the punishments/rewards meted out to us by our own/others karma. But God also acts in history in a truly Personal manner as well - which “salvation history” the Old testament bears witness to. The Hebrews were offered frienship from God (“chosen”) in a way no other race was.
(6) I have no problem with the “Last Judgement” as being truly a personal act of a loving God. If people act in such a way as to effectively desire all the external goodies/gifts His Friendship brings in his wake, yet actually aren’t interested in Him as a person, why should he seal the friendship? Charity begins at home. Would he be loving Himself if he allowed such abuse for all time? If this was a marriage we would call it “battered wife syndrome” and tell her to get the f$%# out of that relationship wouldn’t we . In a way this Judgement is also Karma. Maybe they are just two sides of the same coin but we creatures just don’t have the mental capacity to see how they connect together.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

…ran out of time for the following meant above:

(7) Sin. You are right. Sin, primarily, is when we freely and knowingly act against the way things are (check out Aquinas on “Natural Law”) not because it offends the totally arbitrary rules of some capricious Wizard of OZ (known technically as “Positive Law”). If someone pretends to be speaking for God they would call it “Divine Positive law” but most of the time it is probably just human! (Human Positive law).
This is not to say that God does not invite us to give up our rights by desring that we endure things that strictly speaking no-one has a right to demand from us (e.g. obedience to legitimate authorities even when they are stupid). Failure in this area would mean our love of God is weak and self-pride is strong and no doubt means God is unable to work his Will in the world through us as well as he otherwise could. Is this “sin”? In the Biblical sense maybe it is (i.e. a falling short of the mark as in an arrow not hitting its target). I would call it a failure in love rather than success in evil.

 

[fhansen]

Hello Everyone!

Just a little background about myself… I am a 30 year old female who grew up Catholic. I was a pretty devout Catholic for my childhood and my teenage years, but as I grew older and began to think for myself and question things, I no longer identify myself with the Catholic Church or any one religion for that matter. I have, however, become extremely spiritual in the past three years or so, and have found myself more connected with God than I ever felt while a member of the church. I left the church because I found myself disagreeing with a lot of fundamental issues and teachings of the church, mostly because they did not make much sense to me, and still don’t. I was wondering if you guys could shed some light on some subjects and if we could have an open yet respectful discussion.

1. One of the biggest problems I have with Catholicism (as well as other Christian religions) is the concept of Hell. I think a lot of Christians under-estimate the power and wonder of a God who IS unconditional love and I firmly believe that God IS nothing but pure, unconditional love. I feel the church, however, paints quite a different picture. I feel like the church imposes too many human qualities to God, when God is definitely anything but human. I believe within this pure and endless source of unconditional love that is God that no one can and ever will be completely separate from him, nor will he judge anyone. Saying you will go to Hell because you don’t follow him or the church or Jesus or any of other myriad of sins someone could possibly commit doesn’t add up in my book. A truly unconditional God loves you no matter what, even if you don’t ask for forgiveness, don’t believe, or outright reject him.

The concept of hell is tied together with 1) man’s free will, and 2) God’s justice. Because existence is inherently good, justice in no way compels God to annilate any part of His creation just because it chooses to oppose His will (to sin or commit moral evil). But, at the same time, because evil is a reality in the present world, justice does demand that this evil is eventually separated from the good that God created. Hell is the necessary destiny of anything that willfully, adamantly opposes the will of God, i.e. that opposes the perfect goodness and order of the universe.

1. Why do Catholics/Christians believe that the Bible is free of error and flaw when human beings have written it? It’s also a book that has been translated from ancient languages in a way different time and place than we are in now. Do you ever feel that some parts of it were lost in translation, or even edited or downright tailored to those who had a hidden agenda in the past? I mean, I think it takes a lot more faith in our fellow man to trust everything the Bible says than faith in God.

The Catholic Church recognizes that 1) the bible contains the word of God and thus possess all truths necessary regarding man’s salvation, but also, 2) that the bible alone is inadequate for the purpose of ascertaining those truths with certainty. She teaches that another source, her lived history from the beginning of Christianity, aka “Tradition”, is necessary in order to fill in the details of our faith. Ultimately the church, herself, was commissioned to interpret both Scripture and Tradtion with the light of the Holy Spirit guiding her.

1. How can religion in general be a valid concept when everyone claims their religion is “the truth”? Isn’t religion also just a manmade concept that people tailor their own beliefs and interpretations around? In the end, aren’t all religions basically acknowledging a higher power? Who is right and who is wrong? Is there even such a thing as right or wrong?

For what possible reason should a religion be not necessarily the right one? Maybe all are right, maybe all are wrong, maybe one, two, or three are right, presumably so long as they wouldn’t contradict each other anyhow. The point is that one religion, could, indeed be right, or at least most accurate, when it comes to describing and conveying the nature and will of God.
.

 

[josie_L]

It still remains a paradox, then, why an omnipotent God could not have made the consequences of rejecting Him less severe and less permanent.

God is LOVE, therefore in rejecting Him you are in essence embracing all that is anathema to love, so if the consequences in rejecting God are severe then it is because they chose to reject LOVE. And once they do, do you think they regret this choice while in Hell, or do they still continue to hate God, i.e., LOVE (are they not exercising their free will in continuing to hate)? Did the Devil regret turning against God? I think you know my answer to that.