Questions from an Ex-Catholic

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free_thinker said:
Hello Everyone!
  1. I think a lot of Christians under-estimate the power and wonder of a God who IS unconditional love and I firmly believe that God IS nothing but pure, unconditional love.
  2. Who is right and who is wrong? Is there even such a thing as right or wrong?
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Hello free_thinker.

You raise some fair questions, and there is nothing wrong with questioning and exploring these issues. I hope you find your way to “the truth” in the end.

I just want to pick up on a couple of issues you raise.

Firstly, why do you believe God is as you describe above? We Catholics believe in a God who loves us infinitely, yet respects our free will, so I don’t think we’re too far off a similar view. However, we believe so based on God’s revelation through Jesus. We recognise how far below God we are and how little we can possibly know of Him, except for what He reveals to us. What is the basis for your belief?

You ask if there is even such a thing as right and wrong. Yet I think you know the answer. Don’t you reject Catholic teaching and the Church based on your impression that it is wrong? Don’t you believe the notion of hell is wrong? Don’t you believe that love is the ultimate good? I think you do believe in right and wrong and good and bad, but you are quite rightly searching for a proper understanding of these things. We believe they are found in the Church; you doubt or reject this. But as long as you keep searching for God and the truth, you’re heading in the right direction.
 
ExCatholicGuy said:
Absent any observable physical proof, which I realize isn’t part of the Real Presence dogma, the only thing that would convince me would be hearing it directly from God or some other supernatural source. And I don’t mean that facetiously - for a claim so extraordinary and so far outside our experience and comprehension, I can honestly say that no lesser standard of evidence would be credible to me.
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Jesus actually addressed this directly with no beating around the bush. I forget which gospel or where to find it, but try searching on “the rich man and Lazarus.” An arrogant rich man died and went to the hell he had chosen with his time on earth. From there, he could actually see across the vast gap a poor beggar that had once lived outside his gates named Lazarus who was in heaven. He begged God to have mercy on his relatives and asked God to send Lazarus to appear to them and warn them to repent. God replied that He’d already sent plenty enough prophets and that one more would make no difference.

I’m sure you’re confident that you’d change your tune if God appeared before and spoke out loud. But are you so sure? I’d bet you’d blame it on some funky mushrooms in your lunch and move on. God won’t coerce you into believing, but He will more subtly reveal Himself to you if you honestly and humbly ask Him to. Try it.
 
free_thinker said:
Wow, I definitely wasn’t expecting such a tremendous response! I honestly do not know how to answer because there are so many replies and so many things to touch on.

I guess one of the reasons I don’t believe in Hell is that I feel like we can never truly be separate from God. I believe we all have our individuality but are all part of something bigger and greater and in turn we are all part of God and God is part of us. I liken us to something like water… we are all individual droplets of water but we also flow into each other to encompass an entire ocean. The church teaches us that God’s presence is everywhere. Wouldn’t that also mean that God is also present in Hell? If there was such a place, and if we were truly cut off from God, that would mean that a part of God is destroyed as well. And we all know God can’t be destroyed.
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you’re right. contrary to popular catholic belief, God is present in hell, but only in the minimal extent necessary to sustain its existence. The existence of everything must be sustained by god to continue existing, and hell is no exception.
 
I guess I just feel that a lot of things in the church are too black and white with no room for discussion, debate, question, or opinion. I feel like I don’t belong because I don’t agree with or believe everything the church teaches and I take a lot of the Bible with a grain of salt. This is why I can no longer call myself a Catholic, despite the fact that I still believe in God and the teachings of Jesus. If there is one thing I miss about the church it was the sense of community. Because my beliefs span across many different philosophies and religions, I feel like an outcast at times with no one to really talk or discuss with.
 
free_thinker said:
despite the fact that I still believe in God and the teachings of Jesus.
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Again, who is this God you say you believe in? Do you believe Jesus is God?

I can highly recommend you get a copy of the book Theology For Beginners by Frankk Sheed.
 
free_thinker said:
I guess I just feel that a lot of things in the church are too black and white with no room for discussion, debate, question, or opinion. I feel like I don’t belong because I don’t agree with or believe everything the church teaches and I take a lot of the Bible with a grain of salt. This is why I can no longer call myself a Catholic, despite the fact that I still believe in God and the teachings of Jesus. If there is one thing I miss about the church it was the sense of community. Because my beliefs span across many different philosophies and religions, I feel like an outcast at times with no one to really talk or discuss with.
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If there a truth, what is not black and white about its truthfulness? Why would you want truth to be wishy-washy?

There are many things that are available in the Church for discussion, debate, question and opinion, like what are the best ways to implement Catholic social teaching.

Why are you trusting your feeling on this matter. Feelings are quite transcient and often not grounded in truth.

There are plenty here on CAF who will engage you in civil discussion on any and all topics (except the banned ones) related to Church teaching.
 
free_thinker said:
I don’t necessarily think it is meant to punish us, but to help us learn. I also don’t think this is the only life we live. I think we live many lives in order to help us grow and gain more experience. I
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Thank you for your thoughts, free thinker 🙂 I am in sympathy with them, as they are thoughts that I myself have lived with for some years now.

You have one kindred spirit in children’s entertainer Jim Henson, who summed up his beliefs thus:

"Over the years, I’ve evolved my own set of beliefs and attitudes – as we all have – that I feel works for me. I don’t feel particularly comfortable telling other people how to think or live. There are people who know much more about these things than I do, but here goes…

I believe that life is basically a process of growth – that we got through many lives, choosing those situations and problems that we will learn through. I believe that we form our own lives, that we create our own reality, and that everything works out for the best. I know I drive people crazy with what appears to be ridiculous optimism, but it has always worked out for me.

I believe in taking a positive attitude toward the world, toward people, and toward my work. I think I’m here for a purpose. I think it’s likely that we all are, but I’m only sure about myself. I try to tune myself in to whatever it is I’m supposed to be, and I try to think of myself as a part of all of us – all mankind and all life. I find it’s not easy to keep these lofty thoughts in mind as the day goes by, but it certainly helps me a great deal to start out this way.

I love my work, and because I enjoy it, it doesn’t really feel like work. Thus I spend most of my time working. I like working collaboratively with people. At its best, the film and television world functions creatively this way. I have a terrific group of people who work with me, and I think of the work that we do as ‘our’ work.

I don’t know exactly where ideas come from, but when I’m working well ideas just appear. I’ve heard other people say similar things – so it’s one of the ways I know there’s help and guidance out there. It’s just a matter of our figuring out how to receive the ideas or information that’s there waiting to be heard.

I find it’s very important for me to stop every now and then and get recharged and reinspired. The beauty of nature has been one of the greatest inspirations in my life. Growing up as an artist, I’ve always been in awe of the incredible beauty of every last bit of design in nature. The wonderful color scheme of nature, which always works harmoniously, are particularly dazzling to me. I love to lie in an open field looking up at the sky. One of my happiest moments of inspiration came to me many years ago as I lay on the grass, looking up into the leaves and branches of a big old tree in California. I remember feeling very much a part of everything and everyone.

Working as I do with the movement of puppet creatures, I’m always struck by the feebleness of our efforts to achieve naturalistic movement. Just looking at the incredible movement of a lizard or a bird, or even the smallest insect, can be a very humbling experience.

At some point in my life I decided, rightly or wrongly, that there are many situations in this life that I can’t do much about – acts of terrorism, feelings of nationalistic prejudice, cold war, etc.–so what I should do is concentrate on the situations that my energy can effect.

I believe that we can use television and film to be an influence for good; that we can help to shape the thoughts of children and adults in a positive way. As it turned out, I’m very proud of the work we’ve done, and I think we can do many more good things.

When I was young, my ambition was to be one of the people who made a difference in this world. My hope still is to leave the world a little bit better for my having been here.
It’s a wonderful life and I love it."
 
free_thinker said:
I mean no disrespect, but I just wanted to know if there are any other Catholics out there that have questioned some of these things.
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Hello there! 🙂

I hadn’t read most of your original post when I felt like I had once written it myself many years ago so instead of directly answering your questions I thought I’d share my own experience (and what led me back to the faith :))

A few years ago I myself became disillusioned with the teachings of the Church, viewing them as mean, cruel, and unfathomable (especially in regards to gay marriage, etc.) As a result I stopped going to Church, etc. though I still very much believed in God and in our savior and decided to try to just live out my life as Jesus would without any “Church mumbo jumbo” as I called it at the time. I didn’t even live that immoral of life for the most part (especially in regards to sexual sins, etc.) Then about a year later I started seeing somebody who I lost my virginity to. Looking back on it now I never should have gone through with it and, for that matter, should never have wanted the relationship (sometimes it was anightmare that I never realized until a couple of years afterwards). The worst part is that I knew what I was doing was a mortal sin and . The real came when she suspected that she was pregnant. That absolutely scared the hell out of me, literally. I knew what she’d probably do if she was and actually went into a church and prayed to God that she wasn’t pregnant. Thankfully she wasn’t, but even that wasn’t enough to convince me to change my ways. My life gradually began to fall apart piece by piece over the next few months (though this was caused by a variety of factors).

So what brought me back to the faith? I was put on anti-depressants for about a couple of weeks and they did nothing for me. Until one night I was in my dorm room in college when it happened. It suddenly hit me that what I had done the past year and a half had put my soul in such grave danger of going to hell if I were to die right there and then. So in a way almost “overnight” I became a changed person. I almost immediately set out to find out what else I had done wrong, been wrong about, etc. After some time (and battling bad bouts of scrupulosity) I came to discover that I had not learned the full truth/teachings/etc. about my faith. And yes some were difficult to comprehend and understand at first, but some also pleasantly surprised me. And in the end, I gained so much knowledge about my faith that I’ve been able to live more of a true Catholic life than I ever had before. And for that I am very grateful for 🙂

I guess the point I’m trying to convey is that sometimes our own personal “cross” that we have to bear is our lack of understanding of our faith and of why certain things are what they are. But we shouldn’t feel discouraged by this. Rather we should take such an opportunity to grow in spirit and in virtue. I can’t imagine what my life would be right now had I not returned to the church.

I hope this helps in some way. Take care and God bless 🙂
 
free_thinker said:
I still believe in God and the teachings of Jesus.
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Please don’t let this turn you away from Jesus, but…

The Church’s teaching about hell and judgement is based primarily on what Jesus had to say about these topics.

Jesus came to save all people, but taught clearly that there is a reality called hell. He wants all people to come to God and paradise through Himself, but accepts that people have the freedom to reject Him.
 
ExCatholicGuy said:
Maybe, maybe not. Who knows, except of course God?
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You’re presupposing that the Catholic Church lost the truth of Jesus, in other words, a great apostasy–but this is totally ruled out by 1 Timothy 2:3-4 as I have explained (over and over again) here.
 
alongexpected said:
The word of god never contradicts itself? What about all that OT hogwash about god murdering Israelites for peeking into the Ark or massacring entire towns?
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I suggest you Study hermeneutics first and if you have don’t take my answer out of context God was merciful then as He Is now. if you want me to explain further I will.

Shalom
God bless
 
free_thinker said:
I feel like I don’t belong because I don’t agree with or believe everything the church teaches and I take a lot of the Bible with a grain of salt. This is why I can no longer call myself a Catholic, despite the fact that I still believe in God and the teachings of Jesus. If there is one thing I miss about the church it was the sense of community. Because my beliefs span across many different philosophies and religions, I feel like an outcast at times with no one to really talk or discuss with.
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This. This is where I think the real problem is at, because in those words “I feel like I don’t belong”, you are highlighting a major thing which I believe a lot of Catholics struggle with - making others feel welcome. Sometimes we can get so caught up in the ‘rights and wrongs’ of the faith, that we lose sight of the first thing Jesus asks us to do, love one another (although sometimes love is not the form we expect it to take, it can be a tough form of love at times). Ultimately we can know everything in the Catechism and what the Church teaches, but if we aren’t sharing it in a loving way then we are making no progress towards bringing others to Christ (One can not force their opinion on another, merely provide discussion so that the other may come to the conclusion themselves (with God’s grace)).

All I can say is you do belong in His Church, It is natural to be skeptical about things at times, we all have our doubts, and a lot of us want to know things for certain. I think it is important to remember that we are all sinners, ultimately we are going to fail from time to time at making others feel welcome, but I would encourage you to keep seeking after these answers despite that. Don’t let the temptation that you don’t belong keep you from Him, because He wants each and everyone of us to be with Him more than we can possibly imagine.
 
free_thinker said:
I just wanted to know if there are any other Catholics out there that have questioned some of these things.
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Hello, Free Thinker - you’re in good company. I am someone who, just like you, wanted answers and couldn’t find them in the Church. I left it to find the answers and was pleasantly surprised that after 10 years of looking they were in the same Church I’d left behind. So here I am, back home and happy in the Catholic Church. Hopefully, that’s where you’ll eventually end up, too.

Hello Everyone!

Just a little background about myself… I am a 30 year old female who grew up Catholic. I was a pretty devout Catholic for my childhood and my teenage years, but as I grew older and began to think for myself and question things, I no longer identify myself with the Catholic Church or any one religion for that matter. I have, however, become extremely spiritual in the past three years or so, and have found myself more connected with God than I ever felt while a member of the church. I left the church because I found myself disagreeing with a lot of fundamental issues and teachings of the church, mostly because they did not make much sense to me, and still don’t. I was wondering if you guys could shed some light on some subjects and if we could have an open yet respectful discussion.
free_thinker said:
  1. One of the biggest problems I have with Catholicism (as well as other Christian religions) is the concept of Hell.
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I’ll explain this concept to you with a personal encounter I had recently. I took in three people into my home. I loved them all and I wanted the best for them all. There were rules to living in my house by necessity so that all could get along and nobody hurt anybody else. Two of the three violated those rules in a manner that put everyone in danger. I could not allow these two to stay in my home anymore unless they were willing to repent because they would have hurt everyone who lived there with what they were doing. One of the two repented and was welcomed back. One of the two refused to even come talk to me about it. He simply left.

I would have forgiven him, and he might even have been able to be eventually reconciled to everyone and let back into our home, but because he would not ask for it he could not receive my forgiveness. He was not willing to change his ways, and so he had to remain outside of my home. I still love him, I still care about him, but I will not allow him in until he is willing to change because he represents a danger to the happiness of everyone else who IS willing to be reconciled and obedient.

This is how it is with heaven and Hell. God CANNOT allow those who are unrepentent into Heaven because they would hurt everyone else who IS willing to repent. It would be a grave injustice to everyone else. Also, you have to realize that a person who has spent their entire lives rejecting God would not find Heaven very heavenly since it is a state of perfect unity with him.
free_thinker said:
  1. Why do Catholics/Christians believe that the Bible is free of error and flaw when human beings have written it? It’s also a book that has been translated from ancient languages in a way different time and place than we are in now. Do you ever feel that some parts of it were lost in translation, or even edited or downright tailored to those who had a hidden agenda in the past? I mean, I think it takes a lot more faith in our fellow man to trust everything the Bible says than faith in God.
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We, as Catholics, do NOT rely on Scripture (the Bible) alone. We are quite fortunate in this because it helps to prevent some of the problems you describe with context being lost and editing or tailoring. The Catholic Church rests firmly on three pillars, all of which are guaranteed to keep us error free by no greater authority than Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit. These three pillars - which keep each other in check - are the Papacy, the Magisterium, and Sacred Scripture. The Magesterium is the college of Bishops and they are in charge of keeping alive all of the context that might otherwise get lost. They are, in essence, the living traditon of the Church.
free_thinker said:
  1. How can religion in general be a valid concept when everyone claims their religion is “the truth”? Isn’t religion also just a manmade concept that people tailor their own beliefs and interpretations around? In the end, aren’t all religions basically acknowledging a higher power? Who is right and who is wrong? Is there even such a thing as right or wrong?
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That everyone seeks the truth is a sign that there is a truth to be found. In fact, science is a method for testing things to discover whether or not they are true and it couldn’t exist if there wasn’t truth. One of the main premises behind science is that anything that is true will remain true no matter how many times it is tested. Anything that isn’t true will begin to fall apart to reveal whatever nuggets of truth might be contained in the deception.

Yes, there is such a thing as right or wrong and you can prove this to yourself. Try handling fire the right way, for example, and you won’t get burned. Try handling it the wrong way and you’re in for a world of pain. In almost everything there is a right way and a wrong way to do things, and that includes relationships.

I hope this helps.
 
free_thinker said:
  1. How can religion in general be a valid concept when everyone claims their religion is “the truth”? Isn’t religion also just a manmade concept that people tailor their own beliefs and interpretations around? In the end, aren’t all religions basically acknowledging a higher power? Who is right and who is wrong? Is there even such a thing as right or wrong?/quote}
I don’t think the fact that people claim things renders the concept invalid. It is up to each religion to make its case as to why it is true–and up to us to evaluate the claims.

It maybe for some religions that people pick and choose and assemble a set of beliefs–but in my experience most people chose their religion or the particular sect of a religion based on how well that groups beliefs align with their own. That seems to me to be the incorrect way to go about it.

I think one should look for the truth (yes I believe there is an absolute truth) and then try to conform their lives to that. Most people do just the opposite and try to conform religion to their beliefs and that is why we see a proliferation of sects or churches within various religions. There are things in science that are true but that don’t make sense to me and that I don’t really understand–but they are still true --it does not matter what I think and I can’t change that fact. I think the Christ rose from the dead–I think Christ is God incarnate and that he founded a church and that that church happens to be the Catholic Church. I think he promised to send the Holy Spirit to protect that church from teaching error and believe he has done so. If I beleive that then it doesn’t really matter if I agree with or understand a teaching at this point in time (there have been teachings that I might have had disagreements with in the past but as I study I have come to see the truth of) because these teachings come from God who created us and not from man. My understanding is limited and it is shaped by the world around me. Can you really look at the teachings of the Church and say these are tailored to our own beliefs and interpretations? You’ll find many Catholics who find some of the teachings hard but we strive to live them because we know they are the truth. There is so much more to say.

Peace,
Mark
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How the concept of hell escapes some…well, that escapes me. Where would God put Mother Theresa or Saint Francis, for examples, in the same place as Hitler…Stalin…Mao? 🤷
 
alongexpected said:
What about all that OT hogwash about god murdering Israelites for peeking into the Ark?
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God did not murder Israelites for peeking into the Ark. He warned them, and they did not believe Him, that men were not capable of looking Him in the face. This is what the Israelites were trying to do - look God in the face. The reality is that God is not just love, He is also light. We see this basic truth about his nature throughout scripture. The burning bush, Moses’ face becoming radiant after his encounters with God, Christ’s radiance during the transfiguration. I think this isn’t just metaphorical but may actually be very literal. God is a RADIANT being. Unless we become like Him, He is actually harmful to our health. This is why he warned the Israelites not to look at or even touch the Ark unless He gave the okay because they would be killed.

As for him ordering the Israelites to kill entire villages and towns, God’s justice is always perfect. Those people were warned and given opportunities in plenty to repent. They were intent on wiping out the Israelites, so God ordered the Israelites to remove the threat. Those children were gifts to the men and women of those towns, gifts which they were twisting into weapons against God and God’s chosen people. God simply took the gifts back to prevent their continued abuse.
 
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