Questions from Non-Catholics

[John949]

I am realizing that more I do enjoy going to Mass at the Abbey it is different than going to the local parish and also go to their adoration chapel I have obstacles though and trying to work through them. I am also looking at Orthodoxy but it is very ethnic and difficult to assimilate. I have issues with Marian doctrine and the saints (I know it is veneration) that is my main obstacle oddly enough at the Abbey there is very little talk of Mary during Mass but at the local parish it is an integral part of the Mass

 

[al2o3]

I understand. Paraphrasing someone earlier - continue your prayerful journey - the Abbey sounds like a good place to do so. Praying for your continued guidance in wisdom and truth.

God Bless

 

[pablope]

I am realizing that more I do enjoy going to Mass at the Abbey it is different than going to the local parish and also go to their adoration chapel I have obstacles though and trying to work through them. I am also looking at Orthodoxy but it is very ethnic and difficult to assimilate. I have issues with Marian doctrine and the saints (I know it is veneration) that is my main obstacle oddly enough at the Abbey there is very little talk of Mary during Mass but at the local parish it is an integral part of the Mass

I hope I can make you better understand the communion of saints with the links below, and that this is Jewish in origin:

Relics, Saints, and the Assumption of Mary | Called to Communion

The first real blow to this interpretation came when I read Peter Brown’s book, The Cult of Saints: Its Rise and Function in Latin Christianity .

Brown challenged my view that the place of saints and relics in the church was a mere holdover from paganism, and that the practice was somehow peripheral to true Christianity. Instead, Brown painted a picture of ancient Christianity and paganism in which relics were indispensable to the former, and repulsive to the latter. Far from a holdover from paganism, the place of relics in the Church appeared as something intensely Jewish, Hebraic, and Old Testament. Pagans, like Julian-the-Apostate, found the practice revolting and legislated against it. (Paganism, with its notions of ritual purity, had strictly delimited the realm of divine worship and neatly separated it from the realm of corpses and the dead.)

http://www.chabad.org/library/artic...tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm/mobile/false

Is it okay to ask a deceased tzaddik to pray on my behalf?

By Tzvi Freeman

Question:

I was always under the impression that Judaism firmly believed that there are no intermediaries between man and G‑d, and to pray to the deceased is blasphemous and outlawed by the Bible. If so, why is it permissible to ask theRebbe to intercede on one’s behalf at the Ohel ?

Answer:

Yes, Jewish customs can be perplexing. Judaism is all about having a direct connection to G-d. An intermediary is a form of idolatry (see “Unidolatry” for more explanation of why this is forbidden.). Yet for as long as there are records, Jews have been in the habit of asking righteous men and women to have a chat with G-d on their behalf.

 

[Justin_Mary]

I have issues with Marian doctrine and the saints (I know it is veneration) that is my main obstacle oddly enough

I know you didn’t ask for help, but let me say this. God has a plan for you. One way or another he will, has, is at this very moment using you (as your free will allows) to be a blessing in someone’s life. He’s actually preparing you for that purpose in eternity.

So when we defer to the Saints, or the Angels we are acknowledging, appreciating, & thanking the Almighty for the works of His hands.

oddly enough at the Abbey there is very little talk of Mary during Mass but at the local parish it is an integral part of the Mass

Truth be told I haven’t experienced much “Mary talk” in any of the Parishes I’ve been to.

 

[John949]

Thank you for your response a lot to think about

 

[John949]

I love the Chaplet of Divine Mercy and that seems to be what you are saying here

 

[John949]

Maybe I just never encountered sincere Catholics in my parish although I am sure there were many my parish was filled with people who couldn’t wait to get out and if the homily was more then 10 minutes they were upset my parents only went to church on Easter so that was my experience. When I went to the Evangelical church people seemed to be there because they wanted to be. There was the ability to discuss the Bible and I encountered so much sincerity. Not they were not without fault but it was a different experience. I never disliked the Catholic Church I just thought I found what I was looking for

 

[John949]

I appreciate all the sincere (name removed by moderator)ut so please feel free to explain these things. I do understand the tradition in the veneration of Mary and the saints but have a hard time praying for or to someone who has passed on.

 

[LCEMapp]

Pints with Aquinas on YouTube is awesome. Many different guests discussing the Catholic traditions and early church description. I left the church for years and am so grateful God led me home.

 

[MNathaniel]

Maybe I just never encountered sincere Catholics in my parish although I am sure there were many my parish was filled with people who couldn’t wait to get out and if the homily was more then 10 minutes they were upset my parents only went to church on Easter so that was my experience. When I went to the Evangelical church people seemed to be there because they wanted to be. There was the ability to discuss the Bible and I encountered so much sincerity. Not they were not without fault but it was a different experience. I never disliked the Catholic Church I just thought I found what I was looking for

Couple quick thoughts.

It’s true that there will be more Catholics at Sunday Mass who don’t seem to ‘want’ to be there on a given day, than evangelicals at church who don’t seem to ‘want’ to be there on a given day… but maybe that’s because the Catholic Church makes it clear that it’s an obligation to attend Mass on Sunday and a mortal sin not to. Whereas evangelicals (in my understanding) will typically not accuse themselves of mortal sin if they miss a Sunday service. So only the ones who are enthusiastic on that particular day show up.

Human psychology being what it is, I’m not surprised that in a building where the only people who showed up are self-selectively enthusiastic enough to show up for their own reasons… there’s more enthusiasm than in the room where there’s a very diverse community of people from diverse spiritual life stages (and moods), some of whom would have happily come in anyway that day (often probably the ones you see at daily Mass too) but others of whom are genuinely offering up their Sunday participation as a sacrifice to God. They ain’t feelin’ it today… but they’re there. And that to me is actually a beautiful thing in its own way. People participating in worshipping God even when they aren’t ‘feeling’ like it. Performing spiritual works even while in a period of spiritual dryness.

I reckon human psychology also enables Protestant ceremonies to perhaps feel emotionally ‘warmer’, because they’re often less structured and the ideas about liturgy are very different from the Catholic (and, it sounds like from Patty’s words, Jewish) liturgies. I reckon it’s easier to seem warm and sincere when you can ad lib and speak or move ‘off the cuff’, perhaps. Whereas our priests and liturgy are more like… a living Bible, themselves. They don’t get to stop preserving the same words on the page. They don’t get to ad lib new ones. In a global Church spanning basically every country and culture and political regime on earth, any potential innovations (in theory) must be approved from above, lest some rogue priest who thinks he’s the bees knees accidentally lead his congregation into seven different heresies and three symbolically catastrophic pitfalls. The priests at Mass aren’t there to be charismatic, though if their homily is soul-tingling that’s great — they’re there to cooperate with Jesus in offering the sacrifice of the Mass. And that Mass must be substantially one, across the world.

(ctd next comment)

 

[MNathaniel]

(ctd)

Basically, I’m a fan of warmth and easy conversation (and obviously sincerity) so I’m not suggesting you abandon your desire for those. I’m suggesting that sincerity in a Mass looks a certain way for a reason (and sometimes Catholic sincerity is shown in the very fact of being present despite being in a period of emotional or spiritual dryness)… and warmth and enthusiasm are something you’re more likely to see, in a way you’ll recognize, in the other ministries Catholics participate in, once they go forth from the Mass to serve the world.

I think you could find the same thing you found at an Evangelical church service, at a good Catholic Bible study. And at a good Catholic charismatic praise and worship evening. Basically everything good you’re describing, can exist within Catholicism (and I’ve experienced it). It’s just, remembering that for Catholics, Mass is Mass, and other events are those other events. We can attend them all — just not all thrown into the same salad of a single event on Sunday.

Edit: I should add, not some single event Sunday salad that’s even missing the main ingredient: Jesus our high priest offering his once-for-all sacrifice of himself, the lamb, to the Father, through the priest.

No matter how danceable and sing-alongable the music at a worship event, or how deep the insight and fellowship goes during a Bible study (both of which are good and I‘ve attended)… nothing adds up to the sacrifice of the Mass, even in the most ugly building and with the most atrocious musical accompaniment, and the worst homilies. If anything, restless pewfuls awkwardly listening to bad music then listening to a bad homily week after week, reminds me that God is the one who binds us together, not our human excellence in other areas. And I end up particularly thanking God during such services, for tolerating and working through such weak creatures as us.

If Jesus condescends to be seated in the tabernacle of this given church and held in the hands of the priest who gave that homily, and received into our very bodies, I can condescend to attend the Mass, listen to the homily, and remember to be thankful that Jesus is the one I’m there for.

 

[Justin_Mary]

in my parish although I am sure there were many my parish was filled with people who couldn’t wait to get out

There are dozens of reasons people do what they do. It would be wrong for us to presume why.

I went to the Evangelical church people seemed to be there because they wanted to be. There was the ability to discuss the Bible and I encountered so much sincerity.

I’ve thought about this. & I don’t know the answer. But the non-Catholic churches I’ve been to, I don’t remember a 7am service, 9am service, 11am service & a 7pm service.

Still, when the Deacon says, “Go in peace.” I always hear, “and glorify the Lord with your lives.”

Which I think is a very different dynamic than the evangelical experience. Where the goal is to get together with like minded people & do things together with those like minded people.

I think the Catholic culture is more about being nourished & restored then going out spreading God’s grace.

My wife’s family is pretty devout & I remember after Mass every Sunday they would get together. Her sisters, brothers, in-laws, kids… my family would occasionally come over as well as my in laws families, & friends.

Since her mother passed, & the kids kids got older we don’t do that as much. But I think that’s what it was all about. & at the time i thought that’s why all those families were anxious to get out. Somebody had to reserve a spot at the park.

 

[pablope]

I appreciate all the sincere (name removed by moderator)ut so please feel free to explain these things. I do understand the tradition in the veneration of Mary and the saints but have a hard time praying for or to someone who has passed on.

Its not required to pray to Mary or the saints. Don’t do it if you’re not ready to accept this but be open to it though. Let God guide you, in His time and will.

 

[John949]

Yes many converts had this same issue initially and I do understand that I don’t have to pray to them to be Catholic yet it is such a part of their teaching and is so intertwined in the theology you feel that if you don’t do it you are really not a part of what is going on

 

[ButNowIsee]

I was baptized fundamentalist almost 30 years ago. I have joined various churches and Bible study groups and have had my share of spiritual up-and-downs. Last year I walked into a Catholic Mass for the first time. Now I am in the RCIA program.

To John949,
I believe God works in His mysterious ways, including this forum and this post you started, which I kept coming back again and again. One of the reason I decided to commit myself into the RCIA process is discussion thread like this. I believe this is His Church in action in a unique way.

Having to choose between different “churches” is a pain, like a child having to choose between divorced mom and dad. I don’t know where you will end up with, but I would suggest not to focus too much on how certain people or style or preacher or book makes you feel. They are good and important, but will all change or wear out eventually. Eventually it’s not about which is the right church. It’s about what God want me to do, and what if I don’t want to do it…

 

[John949]

My wife’s conversion happened at a Charismatic Catholic meeting and we used to go to Charismatic praise and worship events at a local monastery; go to healing services with Father D’Orio as well

 

[John949]

I have come to believe that the Eucharist is the real presence of Christ which helps me understand the Mass and it’s difference from evangelicalism. I did make confession with a priest at the Abbey (face to face which I prefer) and have gone at my local parish but I don’t understand the saying just the our Fathers and Hail Marys ( I did not say the Hail Marys as I have not been able to justify that as of yet) repetitively as a form of repentance. If I confessed to God and went to the priest is not the absolution enough if you have compunction? Why is binding and loosing only for the priest? When I read the Bible it doesn’t seem to single that out just for the priest. BTW I have listened to Pints with Aquinas, CA, Reppinger, Baron, Goring, Taylor, Voris, etc. I cannot get enough of it. These threads help me out a lot too!

 

[al2o3]

I did make confession with a priest at the Abbey (face to face which I prefer) and have gone at my local parish but I don’t understand the saying just the our Fathers and Hail Marys ( I did not say the Hail Marys as I have not been able to justify that as of yet) repetitively as a form of repentance.

You are on a “journey” back to a Catholic faith after a sojourn with evangelical christianity. There is some things you may have to “unlearn” from an evangelical approach. For example, authority and obedience play a large role in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Catholics accept that Scripture records Christ gave direct authority to bind and loose to Peter. This special apostolic authority has been delegated in the Church since then. If our approach to reconciliation is one of humility and contrition, then our hearts must be open to “obedience” - imaging Christs own obedience to the Father’s will. The penance offered us by the priest is an “action” of our will to repair our relationship with God. This action brings His grace to our “intention” to go and sin no more. If our penance is incomplete, then our reconciliation is incomplete. If our posture of “obedience to God” is correct, it is not for us “to require to justify” our penance. Rather it is something to take joy, from the grace it bestows.

Now I understand, for you, saying hail marys is difficult. It is good to hear that you have a face to face confession with your confessor. I much prefer it. It is also an opportunity for you to discuss your current faith journey with your confessor. On one hand, I am sure he will understand and give you penitential actions that help rather than hinder your journey of faith. On the other hand, our offering of repentance is not always meant to be “comfortable” - think of fasting. It is the submission of our will to His (Christs) that is called for in reconciliation.

Regarding repetitive prayer - I see it as an “aspiration of my soul” that ascends as incense to the Father - as referred to in Scripture. Its the posture and attitude of my heart and my actions in daily life that would determine if such repetition was indeed “vain”. Christ himself gave us the words to pray - Surely He meant us to repeat them!

For your reference: Do Catholics Pray "Vain Repetitions?" | Catholic Answers

Hope this helps

God bless

 

[al2o3]

I do understand the tradition in the veneration of Mary and the saints but have a hard time praying for or to someone who has passed on.

The Good News is that Christ (having paid for our sins ) brings eternal life! If there is eternal life then there must be saints living eternally. They are alive and in the presence of God! So we would have to re-define “passed on” as “passed on from their earthly presence” - but present eternally none-the-less. As much as I asked my sister to pray for me last week - I can ask the saints (church triumphant) to pray for me too. Why would they not hear me? Mary is just a very special saint We certainly do not “worship” them - we ask for their prayers and intercession with God the Almighty on our behalf.

Off course, I recognise - nothing stops us from going directly to God ourselves. So I’m not saying its either/or - but rather, both/and.

 

[Kininni]

MNathaniel… what an excellent post! Not only are you using beautiful prose, but describing the difference between Mass and Sunday services anywhere else in a wonderful and understandable way. Thank you for expressing my thoughts in a way I could not.