Questions from protestants...

[Iowa_Mike]

alright I’m here. I’m the guy who authored the questions in the OP and I’m reading the responses to get up to speed with what you guys are talking about and I’m sure this will be an interesting debate.

What debate, you’ve entered the ‘Hall of Truth’.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[michaelcollins]

the catholic church put the bible they worsip together, yes prtestants worship the bible;

where were the protestants for the first 1500 yrs ad?

why are there over 30,000 protestant denominations and one catholic church?

ask about the moral life of martin luther

 

[NolePaul2009]

Neph,

You see, you are not going to suceed in “converting” any Catholics here. Feel free to challenge away. Though, looks like folks here have posed you some challenging questions!

 

[mercygate]

the catholic church put the bible they worsip together, yes prtestants worship the bible;

where were the protestants for the first 1500 yrs ad?

why are there over 30,000 protestant denominations and one catholic church?

ask about the moral life of martin luther

If I were a non-Catholic, this is not the sort of response that would open my heart to what Catholics have to say.

 

[mercygate]

Debate is a waste of time. It presumes a winner and a loser, and proceeds from a position of hostility. Nephilim is already hostile; we do not need to be. State the Catholic position as clearly as possible and leave it at that.

As a convert myself, I learned after bashing my head up against Catholic teachings for longer than I care to tell, that nobody thinks through positions with more depth and clarity than the Catholic Church when making doctrinal statements. Nobody. Arguing about it just makes you tired.

 

[michaelcollins]

If I were a non-Catholic, this is not the sort of response that would open my heart to what Catholics have to say.

I am not sure what you are saying but these are simply questions to put to the posters friend who he is debating on the subject of the catholic church. If he is debating then you ask a question to make him think and give an answer, that is what is going on in this thread. The non-catholic debater is not approaching this with an open heart but has been brought up to believe the church is the antichrist.

As a former protestant I find the church does not understand the fact that most protestants think the pope and the church are evil, even the antichrist. However, where most protestants are very weak is in theology and history and in knowing what the actual teachings of the church are. It is not a point of loving my brother, I do, it is how do you best get someone who actually hate what you believe to question what they have been taught.

 

[NolePaul2009]

We won’t use the term debate, but an opportunity to educate and attempt to give him what the Catholic Church truely teaches. Neph has some questions, and we are ready to educate him.

 

[mercygate]

I am not sure what you are saying but these are simply questions to put to the posters friend who he is debating on the subject of the catholic church. If he is debating then you ask a question to make him think and give an answer, that is what is going on in this thread. The non-catholic debater is not approaching this with an open heart but has been brought up to believe the church is the antichrist.

So deal with the heart; “a soft answer turneth away wrath.”

As a former protestant I find the church does not understand the fact that most protestants think the pope and the church are evil, even the antichrist. However, where most protestants are very weak is in theology and history and in knowing what the actual teachings of the church are.

True, especially that last point.

It is not a point of loving my brother, I do, it is how do you best get someone who actually hate what you believe to question what they have been taught.

By reposing confidently in what you know to be true and asking gently where we got the New Testament. I understand our interlocutor has a problem with that particular point of history. We should stick with that until he has worked it through for himself…

 

[michaelcollins]

We won’t use the term debate, but an opportunity to educate and attempt to give him what the Catholic Church truely teaches. Neph has some questions, and we are ready to educate him.

Actually most protestants seem to need like me to be hit over the head with the churchs actual teachings to start with- they cannot let go of what they have been taught, you worship Mary, you worship idols, you pray to the dead you ask the priest for forgiveness, they also have to be shown where in the Bible the doctrine comes from, tradition and the churches teachings are not enough for them because of their belief in sola scripta.

we can call it what you like for most it is a fruitless journey at the start but for those who convertt in the end it is coming home to God.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I can’t say I’m excited that he’s been invited here. If he were truly curious, it would be one thing. Just another anti-Catholic who believes to open his mind is to be damned to hell is likely to do no more than cause discord and distress. And truthfully, it’s when they begin to see for themselves that what they’ve been taught is not accurate that they start to get very nervous, and at that point they disolve into an irrational spewing of hatred.

Have you heard of Godwin’s Law? Jimmy Akin has a reference to it. The idea is that when an Internet debater begins to lose, the chances of him comparing his opponent to Hitler dramatically increases.

jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2007/08/james-white-has.html

If there were an open-minded Protestant around, I’d say, begin with an examination of the Reformation.

The five solas are Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus, and Soli Deo Gloria. Catholics are accused of not adhering to all five, but it is untrue. We actually adhere to Sola Gratia, Solus Christus, and Soli Deo Gloria. We do not adhere to Sola Scriptura because it is rationally insupportable and we do not adhere to Sola Fide because the Bible never taught it. Going one step further, there is a difference between the law and works righteousness as Paul describes the Jewish tradition, and which cannot save us, and “works” which refer to the active involvement of the will. Confusion between these two cause Protestants to misunderstand the Catholic doctrine of justification.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I have to apologize. I had no idea this story was already posted in this forum until a second ago when it popped to the top of the page.

 

[NolePaul2009]

I don’t have a problem with him coming here, as aren’t we called to attempt to bring all souls to heaven? As long as he remains respectful, Im open to dialogue. Trying to carry on a debate on Youtube is tough as there is a character limit, plus while I grew up Catholic, Im still learning my apologetics and I felt by inviting him here to see what those who had more knowledge then myself may open his eyes.

 

[Nephilim145]

QUOTE=Angels Unaware;4763949]Reverence is not worship. If he kissed your cheek would he be worshipping you? Why have they ignored all the other feast days dedicated to the other saints? If you think the purpose of a feast day is to worship someone, you don’t understand it. Because Christ’s spiritual body is present.
The Hail Mary is a biblical prayer that asks for her intercession in prayer. As a matter of fact none of it is in conflict with the Bible. We do not have idols, so we cannot bow before them.The same verse that says do not make a graven image follows with instructions for making graven images, so anyone who says this does not understand the Bible.

1. You bow, kneel, and pray before images (idols) of mary and the saints. That sounds a lot like worship to me. Kissing a person on the cheek is a far cry from bowing, kneeling and praying to them. I love my mother but I wouldn’t do any of those things to her.
   Exodus 20:4-5, Dueteronony 5:8-9, Leviticus 19:3-4, Leviticus 26:1-2 etc all DEPLORE making idols and bowing to them. You can call it what you want God calls it an abomonation.
2. Where in the bible does it say to hold feast days to dead saints. God says in Exodus that he is a jealous God. So why anger him by paying the hommage due to him to sacred images?
3. The hail mary is NOT a biblical prayer. “Hail Mary Full of Grace The Lord is with thee is”. later on “Blessed art thou among women and the fruit of thy womb is” but pray for us sinners and so on is something that come from the council of trent. NOT THE BIBLE. And even if it were biblical why are you repeating it up to as much as 50 times? Matthew 6:7 says "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. ". Jesus himself is calling that a nonsensical thing to do.
4. I know what you’re trying to get at and its a lie. Yes God INSTRUCTED the Israelites to make the arc with the cherebum on it but no where did he instruct people bow in worship. NOWHERE. When God commands you to make a graven image its a lot different that when you just decide to make a graven image and bow, kneel, kiss and pray to it. So in conclusion to my first true reply I’ve shown.
5. Yes you do have idols bowing, kneeling, kissing, making offerings and praying to a graven image is a dictionary and biblical definition of idolotry. Which God FORBIDS. God calls it iniquity and God hates workers of iniquity.
6. While the WORDS of the Hail Mary prayer might be biblical with the exception of the end, the prayer itself ISN’T. The LORD is a jealous GOD and he doesn’t share his glory with anybody. Not even Mary. We protestants love and respect mary as the mother of our savior but we do not and will not bow to her image.
7. Catholic doctrines discussed here aren’t biblical and they are man made.

If Catholics want to think that sola scriptura is a follied argument thats about as close to heresy as you can get. Basically you’re saying Gods word isn’t good enough for you. Please turn from this evil and believe on Christ Jesus. NOT MARY or your man made traditions.

Peace

 

[michaelcollins]

I don’t have a problem with him coming here, as aren’t we called to attempt to bring all souls to heaven? As long as he remains respectful, Im open to dialogue. Trying to carry on a debate on Youtube is tough as there is a character limit, plus while I grew up Catholic, Im still learning my apologetics and I felt by inviting him here to see what those who had more knowledge then myself may open his eyes.

we have protestants who come here to learn about our religion and those who come to save us, some who come to argue and some out of curiosity, all are welcome and hope they learn the truth.

 

[Nephilim145]

Actually most protestants seem to need like me to be hit over the head with the churchs actual teachings to start with- they cannot let go of what they have been taught, you worship Mary, you worship idols, you pray to the dead you ask the priest for forgiveness, they also have to be shown where in the Bible the doctrine comes from, tradition and the churches teachings are not enough for them because of their belief in sola scripta.

we can call it what you like for most it is a fruitless journey at the start but for those who convertt in the end it is coming home to God.

Please show me in the bible where mary in co-redemptrix of souls becasue the bible says there is ONE mediator between man and God and that is JESUS. But maybe you see something I don’t.

 

[Nephilim145]

All the questions are very easy to answer. The main part of Catholic Answers has many answers. You can also read Jimmy Akin.

Anyone who studies Catholicism in depth and compares it to Protestanism will come away with very different perceptions than what is being taught in Bible churches. Many convert when they intellectually study the questions in depth, but even if they don’t convert, if they are honest they no longer ask the silly questions or have silly accusations. These churches are anti-intellectual, and they don’t hold a candle to Catholicism in serious study and debate.

Actually, I am somewhat surprised that anyone would be proud of posting such offensive videos on YouTube. Those videos show brainwashed, prejudiced zealots interfering with a sacred worship service. They should be embarrassed.

I was a catholic for over 10 years and went to catholic school for about 7 after that I became an athiest. Even when I was younger I couldn’t understand how idolotry could be a sin yet we had graven images that we prayed to and bowed to which was in direct violation of Gods word.

 

[VociMike]

QUOTE=Angels Unaware;4763949]Reverence is not worship. If he kissed your cheek would he be worshipping you? Why have they ignored all the other feast days dedicated to the other saints? If you think the purpose of a feast day is to worship someone, you don’t understand it. Because Christ’s spiritual body is present.
The Hail Mary is a biblical prayer that asks for her intercession in prayer. As a matter of fact none of it is in conflict with the Bible. We do not have idols, so we cannot bow before them.The same verse that says do not make a graven image follows with instructions for making graven images, so anyone who says this does not understand the Bible.

1. You bow, kneel, and pray before images (idols) of mary and the saints. That sounds a lot like worship to me. Kissing a person on the cheek is a far cry from bowing, kneeling and praying to them. I love my mother but I wouldn’t do any of those things to her.
   Exodus 20:4-5, Dueteronony 5:8-9, Leviticus 19:3-4, Leviticus 26:1-2 etc all DEPLORE making idols and bowing to them. You can call it what you want God calls it an abomonation.
2. Where in the bible does it say to hold feast days to dead saints. God says in Exodus that he is a jealous God. So why anger him by paying the hommage due to him to sacred images?
3. The hail mary is NOT a biblical prayer. “Hail Mary Full of Grace The Lord is with thee is”. later on “Blessed art thou among women and the fruit of thy womb is” but pray for us sinners and so on is something that come from the council of trent. NOT THE BIBLE. And even if it were biblical why are you repeating it up to as much as 50 times? Matthew 6:7 says "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. ". Jesus himself is calling that a nonsensical thing to do.
4. I know what you’re trying to get at and its a lie. Yes God INSTRUCTED the Israelites to make the arc with the cherebum on it but no where did he instruct people bow in worship. NOWHERE. When God commands you to make a graven image its a lot different that when you just decide to make a graven image and bow, kneel, kiss and pray to it. So in conclusion to my first true reply I’ve shown.
5. Yes you do have idols bowing, kneeling, kissing, making offerings and praying to a graven image is a dictionary and biblical definition of idolotry. Which God FORBIDS. God calls it iniquity and God hates workers of iniquity.
6. While the WORDS of the Hail Mary prayer might be biblical with the exception of the end, the prayer itself ISN’T. The LORD is a jealous GOD and he doesn’t share his glory with anybody. Not even Mary. We protestants love and respect mary as the mother of our savior but we do not and will not bow to her image.
7. Catholic doctrines discussed here aren’t biblical and they are man made.

If Catholics want to think that sola scriptura is a follied argument thats about as close to heresy as you can get. Basically you’re saying Gods word isn’t good enough for you. Please turn from this evil and believe on Christ Jesus. NOT MARY or your man made traditions.

Peace

One question/issue per thread, please.

 

[Nephilim145]

the catholic church put the bible they worsip together, yes prtestants worship the bible;

where were the protestants for the first 1500 yrs ad?

why are there over 30,000 protestant denominations and one catholic church?

ask about the moral life of martin luther

Actually no you didn’t and if you think you did then those boys over in the Eastern Orthodoxy have something to say about that. But you didn’t create the bible. The bible was around 200 years before the council of nicea. The council of Nicea was to battle the heresy of aaryanism not to create the bible which was already around. YOUR bible however the vulgate was created by the council of trent where you’re priest took apocryphal books (which before that they called heretical) and made them part of YOUR cannon. We do not worship the bible. We look to Gods word as our final authority. We don’t look to a pope, catechisms, papal bulls, cadrinals or any of that other man made non-sense. We look to what God said. And that is final. If Gods word isn’t final enough for you, well may you have a good time explaining to God why that is.

 

[Nephilim145]

1. You bow, kneel, and pray before images (idols) of mary and the saints. That sounds a lot like worship to me. Kissing a person on the cheek is a far cry from bowing, kneeling and praying to them. I love my mother but I wouldn’t do any of those things to her.
   Exodus 20:4-5, Dueteronony 5:8-9, Leviticus 19:3-4, Leviticus 26:1-2 etc all DEPLORE making idols and bowing to them. You can call it what you want God calls it an abomonation.
2. Where in the bible does it say to hold feast days to dead saints. God says in Exodus that he is a jealous God. So why anger him by paying the hommage due to him to sacred images?
3. The hail mary is NOT a biblical prayer. “Hail Mary Full of Grace The Lord is with thee is”. later on “Blessed art thou among women and the fruit of thy womb is” but pray for us sinners and so on is something that come from the council of trent. NOT THE BIBLE. And even if it were biblical why are you repeating it up to as much as 50 times? Matthew 6:7 says "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. ". Jesus himself is calling that a nonsensical thing to do.
4. I know what you’re trying to get at and its a lie. Yes God INSTRUCTED the Israelites to make the arc with the cherebum on it but no where did he instruct people bow in worship. NOWHERE. When God commands you to make a graven image its a lot different that when you just decide to make a graven image and bow, kneel, kiss and pray to it. So in conclusion to my first true reply I’ve shown.
5. Yes you do have idols bowing, kneeling, kissing, making offerings and praying to a graven image is a dictionary and biblical definition of idolotry. Which God FORBIDS. God calls it iniquity and God hates workers of iniquity.
6. While the WORDS of the Hail Mary prayer might be biblical with the exception of the end, the prayer itself ISN’T. The LORD is a jealous GOD and he doesn’t share his glory with anybody. Not even Mary. We protestants love and respect mary as the mother of our savior but we do not and will not bow to her image.
7. Catholic doctrines discussed here aren’t biblical and they are man made.

If Catholics want to think that sola scriptura is a follied argument thats about as close to heresy as you can get. Basically you’re saying Gods word isn’t good enough for you. Please turn from this evil and believe on Christ Jesus. NOT MARY or your man made traditions.

Peace

One question/issue per thread, please.

I was quoting but it God all jacked up I’ll re do it and you can delete it. Sorry about that.

 

[NolePaul2009]

Actually no you didn’t and if you think you did then those boys over in the Eastern Orthodoxy have something to say about that. But you didn’t create the bible. The bible was around 200 years before the council of nicea. The council of Nicea was to battle the heresy of aaryanism not to create the bible which was already around. YOUR bible however the vulgate was created by the council of trent where you’re priest took apocryphal books (which before that they called heretical) and made them part of YOUR cannon. We do not worship the bible. We look to Gods word as our final authority. We don’t look to a pope, catechisms, papal bulls, cadrinals or any of that other man made non-sense. We look to what God said. And that is final. If Gods word isn’t final enough for you, well may you have a good time explaining to God why that is.

Can you prove that the Bible didn’t come from the Catholic Church? Where do you think the Bible came from?

Also, please start separate threads for different questions, that way we can address each and every point.