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michaelcollins
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Where in the Bible does it say sola scripta?
what about Jesus sending the apostles out and arguemndo the orthodox church, where does the protestants and sola scripta come from but 1500 years later
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what about Jesus sending the apostles out and arguemndo the orthodox church, where does the protestants and sola scripta come from but 1500 years later
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Nephilim145
Guest
- You bow, kneel, and pray before images (idols) of mary and the saints. That sounds a lot like worship to me. Kissing a person on the cheek is a far cry from bowing, kneeling and praying to them. I love my mother but I wouldn’t do any of those things to her. Exodus 20:4-5, Dueteronony 5:8-9, Leviticus 19:3-4, Leviticus 26:1-2 etc all DEPLORE making idols and bowing to them. You can call it what you want God calls it an abomonation.
- Mary is a prime example but the same applies. Where in the bible does it say to hold feast days to dead saints. God says in Exodus that he is a jealous God. So why anger him by paying the hommage due to him to sacred images and saints. Why not honor the God they served rather than his servant.
- The hail mary is NOT a biblical prayer. “Hail Mary Full of Grace The Lord is with thee is”. later on “Blessed art thou among women and the fruit of thy womb is” but pray for us sinners and so on is something that come from the council of trent. NOT THE BIBLE. And even if it were biblical why are you repeating it up to as much as 50 times? Matthew 6:7 says** "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. ".** Jesus himself is calling that a nonsensical thing to do.
- Again yes you do have idols. You bow, pray, kneel, make offerings and kiss the feet of statues. You can call it what you want. Reverancing, venerating, respecting, paying hommage but whatever you want to call it GOD calls it IDOLOTRY. Praying to sacred images isn’t supported in the bible its deplored.
Conclusion
- Yes you do have idols bowing, kneeling, kissing, making offerings and praying to a graven image is a dictionary and biblical definition of idolotry. Which God FORBIDS. God calls it iniquity and God hates workers of iniquity.
- While the WORDS of the Hail Mary prayer might be biblical with the exception of the end, the prayer itself ISN’T. The LORD is a jealous GOD and he doesn’t share his glory with anybody. Not even Mary. We protestants love and respect mary as the mother of our savior but we do not and will not bow to her image.
- Catholic doctrines discussed here aren’t biblical and they are man made.
Peace
p.s. please delete my first reply. Hopefully this time the quoting worked.
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NolePaul2009
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First to address your support for Sola Scriptura…there are several verses that easily refute that.
**“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you” (1 Cor. 11:2). **
The Catholic Church does not go by scripture alone, as scriptures here are clearly instructing us to maintain traditions.
**“Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us” (2 Tim. 1:13-14).
“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” (2 Thess. 2:15) **
**“You, then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:1-2). **
More verses to consider…
**“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God” (2 Peter 1:20-21). **
This passage clearly teaches against self intrepetation. As questioned before in this thread, there are 30,000+ protestant denominations and one Catholic Church. Why? The answer is that protestant denominations have their own intrepetations. Have you heard the saying, “You can take any seven verses from the Bible and form your own demonination”? One can clearly see the logic of this verse. If you disagree, then where is your intrepetation coming from?
**"‘Though I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink, but I hope to come to see you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete" (2 John 12). **
Sounds like another verse against Sola Scriptura.
**“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you” (1 Cor. 11:2). **
The Catholic Church does not go by scripture alone, as scriptures here are clearly instructing us to maintain traditions.
**“Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us” (2 Tim. 1:13-14).
“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” (2 Thess. 2:15) **
**“You, then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:1-2). **
More verses to consider…
**“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God” (2 Peter 1:20-21). **
This passage clearly teaches against self intrepetation. As questioned before in this thread, there are 30,000+ protestant denominations and one Catholic Church. Why? The answer is that protestant denominations have their own intrepetations. Have you heard the saying, “You can take any seven verses from the Bible and form your own demonination”? One can clearly see the logic of this verse. If you disagree, then where is your intrepetation coming from?
**"‘Though I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink, but I hope to come to see you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete" (2 John 12). **
Sounds like another verse against Sola Scriptura.
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michaelcollins
Guest
There is no slola scripta or once saved always saved in the bible, you take various verses out of context to get a result Martin Luther was looking for because of his fear about his salvation, but martin Luthers church was very close to the catholic church most protestants keep adding or subtracting till it is not recognizable.
Like most protestants you fail to answer the questions, where was the protestant church for 1500 years, why would Jesus wait that long to have truth come out, which truth is it of the 33000 denominations? What good has personal interpretation got you but total conflict?
Do protestants pray for one another? Yes. Is mary in heaven with the Lord? yes. why would you not assk mary to pray for you, I would rather have the Mother of God pray for me than Jim Baker of Jimmie Swaggert, wouldnt you?
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Nephilim145
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Yeah because those 1500-1600 year time span the bible was banned under threat of death. If you owned a bible you were to get killed. Why do you think the inquisiton and the St. Bart’s Day even massacre happened? Where in the bible does it say sola scriptura?
2 Timothy 2:15 .Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
Now once we did get the bible in our native languages and good men paid with their lives in very horiffic ways people read it and found out your doctrine is corrupt and not biblical which is why people fell away from it and drew closer to the bible as the one and only word of God.
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michaelcollins
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please refer me to the Beble where it says sola scripta?
what is the history of the most prominenbt protestant Bible the King James V? It was commissioned by an English King with a goal of maintaining the monarchy, therefore doctrinal changes.
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NolePaul2009
Guest
Those verses you pose say nothing about Sola Scriptura…again the verses I posed to you actually teach AGAINST it. Also, I posed a verse to you that preached against personal intrepetation.
See:
“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you” (1 Cor. 11:2).
“Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us” (2 Tim. 1:13-14).
“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” (2 Thess. 2:15)
“You, then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:1-2).
“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God” (2 Peter 1:20-21).
“‘Though I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink, but I hope to come to see you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete” (2 John 12).
See:
“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you” (1 Cor. 11:2).
“Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us” (2 Tim. 1:13-14).
“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” (2 Thess. 2:15)
“You, then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:1-2).
“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God” (2 Peter 1:20-21).
“‘Though I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink, but I hope to come to see you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete” (2 John 12).
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Nephilim145
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Like I said in a previous post the Protestant church wasn’t around because the bible was suppressed for 1500 years. So of course bible believing Christianty wasn’t around because owning the bible meant life and death and while many did die to own it not many enough that is until it was finally translated and the bam we get out it. Do we pray for each other yes. I didn’t say that was wrong. But we pray to God. Is mary in heaven yes. But what can praying to her do for me that praying to God wouldn’t? Would I want Jimmy Swaggart praying for me, no but I wouldn’t want a pedophile Catholic priest around me or my future children either. We don’t presonally interpret the bible. It says what it means and means what it says. Nothing more. But if you want to talk about an interpretation that has destroyed things. Your popes have been waging wars the world over based on his interpretation or because he said it was Gods will.
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michaelcollins
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Ok Im sorry I’m leaving now I’m obviously an idiot, dad gum my JD. I should have been able to read those verses and see that they said only the Bible not to go by tradition, course to my little mind the OP has a much better scripture listing for his points than you.
You have to type slowly because I did not get the sola scripta from your verses, it just does not seem to be there, funny about you literalists something that isnt literal what do you do with it?
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Georgia
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The anger in these posts and the misstatements on Church doctrine are sad. I think it is time to say a prayer.
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Junebug999
Guest
But I see nothing in these two scriptures that say “scripture alone”. One says study, the other says all scription is given…
But scripture alone? I don’t see it.
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Iowa_Mike
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Here’s what your missing. It seems to me that you are reading scripture 1 sentence at a time when you must read every sentence in context with the whole bible.
I presume you are referring to 1 Timothy 2:5. Here St. Paul testifies to the divinity of Christ.
- taken from the Navarre Bible.
For example, Matthew 16:16-20
Did not Christ establish Peter as a mediator?
God Bless,
Iowa Mike
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NolePaul2009
Guest
Please show me in the bible where mary in co-redemptrix of souls becasue the bible says there is ONE mediator between man and God and that is JESUS. But maybe you see something I don’t.
Easy, Michael, I will address this one. Yes, the Bible does say there is one redeemer/mediator, and us asking Mary to pray for us to her SON Jesus does not violate that. In (1 Tim. 2:1-4) Paul is teaching that we should pray for one another. I know you are going to reply, well Mary is dead and can’t hear you, however that is not the case as Revelation 5:8 reveals that Mary and the Saints do intercede for us.
Rev 5:8: The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Easy, Michael, I will address this one. Yes, the Bible does say there is one redeemer/mediator, and us asking Mary to pray for us to her SON Jesus does not violate that. In (1 Tim. 2:1-4) Paul is teaching that we should pray for one another. I know you are going to reply, well Mary is dead and can’t hear you, however that is not the case as Revelation 5:8 reveals that Mary and the Saints do intercede for us.
Rev 5:8: The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
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michaelcollins
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Ok at least we agree on something, the protestant church was not around. Now we have a basis for dialogue.
Is Jesus Lord and God? Does his word mean anything? If so you read the scripture thsat we interpret as founding the church and you have the succession from Peter.
Now unless you think Jesus could get it wrong? No? Then we have the above verses about tradition. Do they mean anything?
More later have to go for now but as long as we have one point we can agree on we can start there.
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Junebug999
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Georgia I agree…praying
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NolePaul2009
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Michael,
I know you are passionate and a former convert, but lets not be hostile and responding with sarcasm. I know I was guilty of such in my replies this morning to him on the Youtube video, but really that is not the way. I know this guy seems to have hostility, but we need to respond in a Christian manner. That is JMO.
I know you are passionate and a former convert, but lets not be hostile and responding with sarcasm. I know I was guilty of such in my replies this morning to him on the Youtube video, but really that is not the way. I know this guy seems to have hostility, but we need to respond in a Christian manner. That is JMO.
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michaelcollins
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You are right I should type with love in my heart for my brother, my problem is an inability to change personalities and multitask.
In between these posts I am being very very scarcastic and as condescending as I can to other laawyers who I believe are being unethical on behalf of an insurance company-imagine that, an insurance company doing something unewthical, oh well, its just I cant shnge tones very well and should not try to post here and work.
Now dont try and tell me I should not be sarcastic to ins. co lawyers that would be too much to take an I might have to join a protestant church
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NolePaul2009
Guest
**The hail mary is NOT a biblical prayer. “Hail Mary Full of Grace The Lord is with thee is”. later on “Blessed art thou among women and the fruit of thy womb is” but pray for us sinners and so on is something that come from the council of trent. NOT THE BIBLE. And even if it were biblical why are you repeating it up to as much as 50 times? Matthew 6:7 says "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. ". Jesus himself is calling that a nonsensical thing to do. **
Easy. The Hail Mary is a biblical prayer. The first part. Hail Mary Full of Grace, the Lord is With thee is taken from the greeting that angel Gabriel gave to Mary in Luke 1:28. The next part comes from Luke 1:42 which is where Mary’s cousin Elizabeth is talking to her about the fruit of her woumb.
The second part of the prayer is not biblical, though the thoughts its expresses is Biblical.
"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
To your objection to “Holy Mary”, as you probably view her as a sinner as the rest of us. However, Mary was a Christian (the first to accept Jesus, see Luke 1:45), and the Bible describes Christians generally as Holy, as it calls them saints, which means holy ones. See Eph 1;1, Phil 1:1, Col 1:2).
Also, just because Mary is called the “Mother of God”, it doesnt mean that Mary is older then God, it only means that the person she gave birth to was a divine person, not a human person. To deny Mary as the mother of God is a heresy known as Nestorianism, which claims that Jesus was two persons (one divine, one human).
As I said before, you say that Timothy teaches about one redeemer, which it does, however if you look at 1 Tim 2:1-4, Paul instructs us to pray for one another. As for the argument of Mary being dead and not being able to hear us, again I refer you to Rev 5:8.
Easy. The Hail Mary is a biblical prayer. The first part. Hail Mary Full of Grace, the Lord is With thee is taken from the greeting that angel Gabriel gave to Mary in Luke 1:28. The next part comes from Luke 1:42 which is where Mary’s cousin Elizabeth is talking to her about the fruit of her woumb.
The second part of the prayer is not biblical, though the thoughts its expresses is Biblical.
"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
To your objection to “Holy Mary”, as you probably view her as a sinner as the rest of us. However, Mary was a Christian (the first to accept Jesus, see Luke 1:45), and the Bible describes Christians generally as Holy, as it calls them saints, which means holy ones. See Eph 1;1, Phil 1:1, Col 1:2).
Also, just because Mary is called the “Mother of God”, it doesnt mean that Mary is older then God, it only means that the person she gave birth to was a divine person, not a human person. To deny Mary as the mother of God is a heresy known as Nestorianism, which claims that Jesus was two persons (one divine, one human).
As I said before, you say that Timothy teaches about one redeemer, which it does, however if you look at 1 Tim 2:1-4, Paul instructs us to pray for one another. As for the argument of Mary being dead and not being able to hear us, again I refer you to Rev 5:8.
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NolePaul2009
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No problem. The only reason I say this is I am just as guilty. Pride and ego get in the way, and I tend to be sarcastic to and tend to talk smack sometimes. With the Catholic Church, I know in my heart that I need to be more loving and less hostile, but as you see in my replies on the Youtube video, I tend to let my emotion, pride and ego get in the way. In law, or insurance, or in sports, that is another thing…
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Nephilim145
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- Yes and then it goes on to give you those traditions (KJV calls them ordinances) men must prap propehecy with heads uncovered and womens heads must be covered. null point
- How does this apply to sola scriptura the whole part before this is talking about keeping Jesus’ words in your heart even if your being persecuted for spreading the gospel? Null point
- The verse before that one you quoted" 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." So the Gospel is the way to obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So in holding to traditions that you have recieved either by word of mouth or epistle it could be logically concluded that these traditions to be VALID would have to be BIBLICAL. Not man made. You cannot tell me that idolotry is ok because… its not really worshipping but more veneration.
Gods word is the bible you would agree. So these traditions to be Godly would have to be by extension biblical. All others are man made which obviously isn’t exatly looked to highly upon.
- That doesn’t disprove sola scriptura. A man of true faith isn’t going to tell you that mary is the co-redemer of souls because in the bible Jesus is the only redemer of souls and the only mediator between God and man. 1 John 4:1 says to test the spirits because there are many false prophets. Those that confess jesus come in the flesh are of God and those that don’t aren’t. Catholics by definiton aren’t of God because while you say Jesus came in the flesh you for some reason seem to think you need to pray to mary for forgiveness of sins. which makes your entire doctrine FALSE. 1/2 of a lie is still a lie.
- I don’t have any objection. We take the word of God as his literal words. We don’t add or subtract to them. We recognize that interpretation is for God and God alone. This doesn’t disprove sola scriptura. This is a corner stone of protestant theology.
- 2 John 9 - Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Mary co-redemtrix/mediatrix = not doctrine of christ
Prima Scriptura = No doctrine of christ (if its not in the word of God then its man made and therefore no good)
Pope = Not doctrine of Christ (how dare a man call himself infallable and the holy father, blasphemy at its finest. Simply disgusting)
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