Questions (Info, not debate please)

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ChristianKnight

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I say info and not debate cause I just want what your church says on the subject, I am not trying to “oppose them” just want to know, just saying to ease that:
  1. Where did the “ideal” or “tradition” of Saint/Sainthood come from?
  2. Where did the RCC/Pope get the ability to tell who is a Saint and who/how they are out of Purgatory?
  3. Purgatory, can I get some scripture proof (Yes, take proof from the Catholic Bible)
  4. How come Mary is a very important person? She is the mother of christ, physically, but God made Jesus, and she is a Virgin, so its kinda hard to be his actual spiritual mother.
 
ChristianKnight,
I’m at work right now but I’ll be done this evening and provide you with some responses to these questions. I know you’ve been wanting to talk.

Rolltide
 
ChristianKnight said:
  1. Purgatory, can I get some scripture proof (Yes, take proof from the Catholic Bible)
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2 Samuel 12:13-18 - Although God has forgiven David there is still a price to pay for his sin.

Matthew 5:48 - “So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matthew 12:32 - Jesus says, “And anyone whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come.” Jesus clearly shows us that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. Where then is this “age to come?”

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 - St. Paul writes that works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. The sins that one has committed are burned after death, but that individual is still brought to salvation. This state cannot be heaven or hell.

Hebrews 12:22-23 - “The spirits of the just” who died in godliness are “made perfect.” They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

Revelation 20:12-15 - Even the dead that “Death and Hades gave up” are judged, and only if their names are not found in the book of life are they thrown into the pool of fire, “the second death.”

Revelation 21:27 - “Nothing unclean will enter” heaven. Purgatory exists because of God’s mercy.

I hope this helps.
ChristianKnight said:
  1. How come Mary is a very important person? She is the mother of christ, physically, but God made Jesus, and she is a Virgin, so its kinda hard to be his actual spiritual mother.
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The Blessed Virgin Marry is important because she said yes to God. She carried Jesus in her womb, He drank milk from her breast. She should be honored.

I’m sorry that I cannot provide any answers for your first two questions.
 
Quick Purgatory answer:

Even a sola scripturist could deduce Purgatory quite reasonably from Scripture.
  • Even Christians still sin (1 Jn 1:9) which causes a stain to the soul, or the drive to repeat the sin (e.g. Jn 8:34).
  • But in heaven we will not be able to sin, nor could God permit any sinful tendencies in heaven (e.g. Mt 6:10, Ep 5:27, Hb 12:23, Rv 21:27).
  • So you know that a forgiven person (completed by the blood of the Lamb) who still has a tendency for sin will have these stains purged away before he can fully unite with God.
 
ChristianKnight said:
I say info and not debate cause I just want what your church says on the subject, I am not trying to “oppose them” just want to know, just saying to ease that:
  1. Where did the RCC/Pope get the ability to tell who is a Saint and who/how they are out of Purgatory?
.
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don’t think there has been any declaration by any pope as to who has been admitted to heaven from purgatory.
the canonization of a saint is a long and drawn out affair…there needs to be at least two verifable miracles done by God at the "saint’s"request…(i ask such a holy person to pray for me and my prayer is answered)then the person’s life is examined his/her aquentences are questioned as to how this person lived thier life.also there is another person or group that actually “opposes” this person being declared a saint.if the “opposing” team is consitenelty proven wrong,the person who is being looked at may be declared a saint…this may not be the exact procedure but it is close to my best of knowledge.
 
ChristianKnight said:
I say info and not debate cause I just want what your church says on the subject, I am not trying to “oppose them” just want to know, just saying to ease that:
  1. Where did the “ideal” or “tradition” of Saint/Sainthood come from?
  2. Where did the RCC/Pope get the ability to tell who is a Saint and who/how they are out of Purgatory?
  3. Purgatory, can I get some scripture proof (Yes, take proof from the Catholic Bible)
  4. How come Mary is a very important person? She is the mother of christ, physically, but God made Jesus, and she is a Virgin, so its kinda hard to be his actual spiritual mother.
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As questions 2, 3 and 4 have been addressed - re: number 1 - from the “communion of saints” - the bible teaching that all believers are united and together form the “body of christ”. In addition, the reference in Hebrews to there being a “cloud of witnesses” in heaven (these are the saints (believers now in heaven with Christ). We also see believers who have died now in heaven in the book of revelation.

Blessings,

Brian
 
ChristianKnight said:
I say info and not debate cause I just want what your church says on the subject, I am not trying to “oppose them” just want to know, just saying to ease that:
  1. Where did the “ideal” or “tradition” of Saint/Sainthood come from?
Click to expand...
Hello CK. The term is derived, I believe, from the notion of final sanctification. Historically, the determination of who was and who was not a “saint” - i.e. sanctified and present with God in Heaven - was a matter of less formal concern. All the faithful pretty much assumed the Apostles, Mary, and the early martyrs were “sainted” and in the presence of God. Only later did the process of canonization occur. It is the infallible teaching authority of the church from which the ability to canonize a saint is derived. It is a lengthy and thorough vetting process that is in itself a single topic for its own thread.
christian knight:
  1. Where did the RCC/Pope get the ability to tell who is a Saint and who/how they are out of Purgatory?
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If you are asking where the Pope gets the authority to declare a person to be a canonized saint, then the answer is “From Jesus.” It is the teaching authority of the Church by which the Pope has the authority to declare a person to be a saint worthy of public veneration by the church. But even one who is not canonized as a saint can be the object of private veneration. In other words, my grandmother is not a canonized saint, but I can still ask her, “Grams, please pray for me if you can.” (I’m not aware of the Pope or the Church ever declaring that a person has been released from Purgatory.)
christian knight:
  1. Purgatory, can I get some scripture proof (Yes, take proof from the Catholic Bible)
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Nothing unclean can enter heaven. (Rev. 21:27) We are called to be perfect. (Mt. 5:48) If we are not perfect when we die, but we die in God’s grace, there is a place (or rather a state) that is not heaven or hell - after life - in which we are made “perfect” and “clean.” Our works are tested and those that fall short of perfect are burned up, while those that are pleasing remain, and we are saved, although we suffer loss as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:15) There is more, but this is a start.
christian knight:
  1. How come Mary is a very important person? She is the mother of christ, physically, but God made Jesus, and she is a Virgin, so its kinda hard to be his actual spiritual mother.
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I think you’ve answered your own question. God’s own messenger declares her to be “full of grace” and she is chosen to be the mother of Jesus (who is not just “made by God” but IS GOD). Jesus is God. Mary is His mother. Hence, she is the mother (not the creator) of God. She is special and we know this because she herself states this in Scripture: Lk 1:46-49.
[46] And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord,
[47] and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
[48] for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden.
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;
[49] for he who is mighty has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.
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Mary is special because God says she is special, because scripture says she is special, and because we believe she - of all the women of time from beginning to end - was chosen to be the mother of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

Why do you think she should *not *be considered as special?

Peace,
-Robert
 
MarcoPolo said:
Quick Purgatory answer:

Even a sola scripturist could deduce Purgatory quite reasonably from Scripture.
  • Even Christians still sin (1 Jn 1:9) which causes a stain to the soul, or the drive to repeat the sin (e.g. Jn 8:34).
  • But in heaven we will not be able to sin, nor could God permit any sinful tendencies in heaven (e.g. Mt 6:10, Ep 5:27, Hb 12:23, Rv 21:27).
  • So you know that a forgiven person (completed by the blood of the Lamb) who still has a tendency for sin will have these stains purged away before he can fully unite with God.
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I think that the problem here is most persons who are SS are taught by their pastors that purgatory denies the “completed work of Christ” by mandating that a person “work” out sins before going to heaven. Of course, this argument misunderstands the doctrine of Purgatory. Nothing about Purgatory calls into question Christ’s work on the cross. Rather, the process of purgatory is exclusively for those who have already been “saved” by Christ’s work. It is the final application of that sanctification that occurs in Purgatory.

Peace,
-Robert
 
Robert_in_SD said:
Why do you think she should *not *be considered as special?

Peace,
-Robert
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I think its rather akward to pray so much to mary, cause I would think, praying straight to Jesus would be better then anything. I usually don’t pray I just talk, I prefer to talk to him kinda like I do my best friend. Except, I tell him things I’d never tell my best friend.
 
Your current signature
"Originally Posted by Mannyfit75
I believe Protestantism lead to the heresy of relativism. That is why we have homosexuals asking for rights and abortion. Protestants are to blame. "

Hi Christian Knight,
I am puzzled that you have chosen to use this unrealistic generalization as your signature. It’s use appears to be an expression of unforgiveness or anger. Perhaps you don’t mean it as so, but this is how it appears. There have been those who have been less respectful and christian than is desirable, but there have been many more who have responded respectfully and kindly to you. Why enshrine a less kindly remark than a loving response as your signature?
I apologise on behalf of anyone who has nettled or offended…and God grant you peace.
 
Trishie said:
Your current signature
"Originally Posted by Mannyfit75
I believe Protestantism lead to the heresy of relativism. That is why we have homosexuals asking for rights and abortion. Protestants are to blame. "

Hi Christian Knight,
I am puzzled that you have chosen to use this unrealistic generalization as your signature. It’s use appears to be an expression of unforgiveness or anger. Perhaps you don’t mean it as so, but this is how it appears. There have been those who have been less respectful and christian than is desirable, but there have been many more who have responded respectfully and kindly to you. Why enshrine a less kindly remark than a loving response as your signature?
I apologise on behalf of anyone who has nettled or offended…and God grant you peace.
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When people are offensive, I simply sig it, that way people see it. I removed it due to someone else’s concern.
 
‘counterfeit’ ? Jesus’ comment
"There are many rooms in my Father’s house; if there were not, I should have told you. I am going now to prepare a place for you, and after I have gone to prepare you a place, I shall return to take you with me; so that where I am you may be too…I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through me. If you know me, you know my Father too. From this moment, you know Him and have seen Him. To have seen me is to have seen the Father.” [John 14:1-4, 6-7]

May the Lord bless you
 
Trishie said:
‘counterfeit’ ?
"There are many rooms in my Father’s house; if there were not, I should have told you. I am going now to prepare a place for you, and after I have gone to prepare you a place, I shall return to take you with me; so that where I am you may be too…I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through me. If you know me, you know my Father too. From this moment, you know Him and have seen Him. To have seen me is to have seen the Father.” [John 14:1-4, 6-7]

May the Lord bless you
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What are you asking about Counterfeit?
 
ChristianKnight said:
I think its rather akward to pray so much to mary, cause I would think, praying straight to Jesus would be better then anything. I usually don’t pray I just talk, I prefer to talk to him kinda like I do my best friend. Except, I tell him things I’d never tell my best friend.
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say you done something against your best friend.Your best friend will not even acknowledge your presence,so how would you approach him?through another mutual friend…mutual friend being the key here.
this is not a precise reason for praying to God through the saints,but it is a way of understanding .
from the prayer Hail Mary “blessed is the fruit of thy womb JESUS…”
 
fbl9 said:
say you done something against your best friend.Your best friend will not even acknowledge your presence,so how would you approach him?through another mutual friend…mutual friend being the key here.
this is not a precise reason for praying to God through the saints,but it is a way of understanding .
from the prayer Hail Mary “blessed is the fruit of thy womb JESUS…”
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I do not think Jesus would get mad if you did something bad, or against him, he is supposed to be ever-loving.

Well, I just don’t see why have a Hail Mary, instead of maybe a Hail Jesus, but thats just me.
 
Fair enough…I’m inclined to speak directly to Jesus 99 percent of the time
but read again perhaps, Jesus’ change of intention at the wedding feast of Cana…at first He demurred saying it was not yet time…but His mom had asked and He obliged her faith when she told the sevants, simply, to do whatever He directed them to do.
 
Trishie said:
Fair enough…I’m inclined to speak directly to Jesus 99 percent of the time
but read again perhaps, Jesus’ change of intention at the wedding feast of Cana…at first He demurred saying it was not yet time…but His mom had asked and He obliged her faith when she told the sevants, simply, to do whatever He directed them to do.
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you’ve lost me trish. 🤷
 
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