Questions (Info, not debate please)

[guanophore]

I think its rather akward to pray so much to mary, cause I would think, praying straight to Jesus would be better then anything. I usually don’t pray I just talk, I prefer to talk to him kinda like I do my best friend. Except, I tell him things I’d never tell my best friend.

Sometime when you are havin’ one of them talks, ask Him to place within you the attitude and knowledge that He would like you to have about His mother.

When people are offensive, I simply sig it, that way people see it. I removed it due to someone else’s concern.

I understand it, but I think there is something fundamentally wrong with highlighting offenses. It seems to me that it further divides the Body by what has already given insult and offense.

Eph 4:1-6
" I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2** with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love**, 3 making every effort to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all."

Love does not take notice of offenses. Using this method shows a lack of the love toward which we strive.

What are you asking about Counterfeit?

I am asking you to find a signature that gives honor where honor due, rather than focusing on something dishonorable.

I am pretty sure I’d get banned for trying to convert people here.

Most likely. However, shining your light is not against the forum rules.

I do not try to do the im a victim I simply show some people stand against “my” people.

So long as you realize that it comes across in every post as “I am a victim here”.

Basically you are feeding into the bigotry by categorizing them into groups and focusing on what divides.

I would sig Rob Genter, but I’d have to sig whole posts, and I simply don’t have the space.

One alternative is to save the offensive posts to a text file, and post them as examples when the time comes. You can also use the little triangle at the upper right of the post to report it as offensive.

Yes I would, I was gonna try to get into RCIA, but they snapped on that. I am hoping to convince them for one or the other. I would really like to take RCIA, but idk how the RCIA thing works, other then maybe like a extra-class outside of school.

Yes, it is pretty much like an extra-class outside of school. for now, though, I encourage you to read the material here in the CAF library.

She shouldn’t be considered special cause when compared to Jesus she isn’t?[/qutoe]

Well, of course, but this would be improper! No creature “compares” to the incomparable reveleation of God in Christ. She is special because of what God did for her, and because of who He is.
ChristianKnight;4512678:

I also prayed 1/4 of the rosary (part of the thing, but I got tired of speaking it, so I laid it down, and decided to do the rest the next day, but I forgot what happened, I think I didn’t sleep the night before, and came home feel asleep.

Can you get Catholic radio where you are? It might be better just to tune in and listen to the Rosary. You can also access it on the web. It is just praying scripture, and some people have other ways of praying scripture.

I rarely see on EWTN them praying just to Jesus, and I watch it a pretty good amount. I am just saying the RCC seems to glorify Mary more then any other.

The Eucharist is the Source and Summit of Catholic worship. What bothers most non-Catholics is these devotions that take place outside the Mass. They don’t understand the Mass, or the concept of Catholic worship. We don’t “glorify” Mary in the sense that we “glorify” God. Mary is a reflection of God’s glory, just as we all can be. We notice and approve when God’s glory shines through people.

I have never asked a friend to pray for me. I have prayed for others before.

God bless you my young brother! It is so sad that you are so alone in your faith. Please know that there are dozens of us here on CAF praying for you. :byzsoc:

I think Jesus would be a better person to ask for prayer from then just Mary? Maybe if we said somethign like "Everyone in heaven" pray for us?

I am not sure exactly what this means, since I think Jesus is already the very best Person. HOwever, at every Mass, Catholics ask for the prayers of “all the angels and saints to pray for me to the Lord our God”. This is very scriptural.

 

[Rolltide]

I have never asked a friend to pray for me. I have prayed for others before. I think Jesus would be a better person to ask for prayer from then just Mary? Maybe if we said somethign like “Everyone in heaven” pray for us?

How about this prayer, which is called the Penitential Rite? It is said during the Mass:

All: ** I confess to almighty God,
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord, our God.
**
Priest: May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life.

All: Amen.

We are asking God for forgiveness, and then not only praying to God ourselves, but asking Mary, the angels, the saints, and the parishoners to ALL pray to God together. That’s literally EVERYONE in existence, praying together, for our forgiveness!

 

[Rolltide]

I have never asked a friend to pray for me. I have prayed for others before.

I pray for you all the time, ChristianKnight.

 

[ChristianKnight]

Sometime when you are havin’ one of them talks, ask Him to place within you the attitude and knowledge that He would like you to have about His mother.

Will do.

I understand it, but I think there is something fundamentally wrong with highlighting offenses. It seems to me that it further divides the Body by what has already given insult and offense.

Love does not take notice of offenses. Using this method shows a lack of the love toward which we strive.

Would you rather me cuss them out and get banned? Cause thats where I usually want to go, but then I just sig it. I think its a good compromise myself.

I am asking you to find a signature that gives honor where honor due, rather than focusing on something dishonorable.

This really reminds me of Man in Black by Johnny Cash. “till things are brighter, im the man in black” I sig the dishonorable stuff, so people realize it. If you want to sig the honorable stuff, thats your choice.

Most likely. However, shining your light is not against the forum rules.

For now.

One alternative is to save the offensive posts to a text file, and post them as examples when the time comes. You can also use the little triangle at the upper right of the post to report it as offensive.

Tried it before, nothing happened.
ChristianKnight;4512678:

She shouldn’t be considered special cause when compared to Jesus she isn’t?[/qutoe]

Can you get Catholic radio where you are? It might be better just to tune in and listen to the Rosary. You can also access it on the web. It is just praying scripture, and some people have other ways of praying scripture.

I watch it on EWTN, and even doing that disturbs my parents enough.

Why did you pray for someone else if the only effective prayer is the one prayed to Jesus by one’s own self?

I can pray for others, I never said it wasn’t effective, but I said that praying to Jesus for others is better then to mary for others.

I don’t ask for Jesus to pray for me, I hope in Him for salvation. Mary has the power to change The Plan. At the wedding at Cana, Jesus said that according to The Plan, it wasn’t His time. What did Mary say? CHANGE THE PLAN. And He did. Asking Mary to intercede on our behalf is a very effective prayer. When your mother asks you to do something, aren’t you inclined to do it?

Um ya, but you’ve lost me on the point of that question.

This is precisely how my family prays - we ask for special intercession from Mary, then we ask for intercession from each of our patrons, then we ask all holy men and women of God for intercession. We conclude with the Glory Be offering glory and praise to God.

Where do we get the idea of patrons from?

If you believe that Mary is not someone special among all humans, you should read the Gospel of Luke more carefully. The angel Gabriel greets Mary: “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.” She is the favored one, she is the vessel by which the Lord chose to come into the world, she is special.

She is special among humans. Not among Jesus, she is his physical mother, but Jesus is God/Jesus/Ghost. That makes Mary look very un-important.

 

[jkarp]

Why did you pray for someone else if the only effective prayer is the one prayed to Jesus by one’s own self?

I can pray for others, I never said it wasn’t effective, but I said that praying to Jesus for others is better then to mary for others.

I don’t ask for Jesus to pray for me, I hope in Him for salvation. Mary has the power to change The Plan. At the wedding at Cana, Jesus said that according to The Plan, it wasn’t His time. What did Mary say? CHANGE THE PLAN. And He did. Asking Mary to intercede on our behalf is a very effective prayer. When your mother asks you to do something, aren’t you inclined to do it?

Um ya, but you’ve lost me on the point of that question.

When Jesus’ mother asks Him to do something, He does it. He came to fulfill the law, not destroy it. Being a good Hebrew, he followed the 10 Commandments, specifically “Honor your mother and your father.” If you ask his mother to ask for something and she does, He may be more inclined to listen. To understand Mary’s role more fully, you need to understand a bit of Hebrew culture. The Queen Mother held a very special place in Hebrew society, her role was to sit at the right hand of the king and to intercede on behalf of the people. For example:

*(19) Then Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right. (20) **“There is one small favor I would ask of you,” she said. “Do not refuse me.” “Ask it, my mother,” the king said to her, “for I will not refuse you.” *
1 Kings 2:19-20

The Queen Mother sits at the right hand of the King and that makes her look very important.

*Where do we get the idea of patrons from? *

There’s a whole heap of history to the Christian Church before the 1500’s, this article may be a good starting place regarding patrons:
newadvent.org/cathen/11562a.htm

 

[ChristianKnight]

When Jesus’ mother asks Him to do something, He does it. He came to fulfill the law, not destroy it. Being a good Hebrew, he followed the 10 Commandments, specifically “Honor your mother and your father.” If you ask his mother to ask for something and she does, He may be more inclined to listen. To understand Mary’s role more fully, you need to understand a bit of Hebrew culture. The Queen Mother held a very special place in Hebrew society, her role was to sit at the right hand of the king and to intercede on behalf of the people. For example:

The Queen Mother sits at the right hand of the King and that makes her look very important.

There’s a whole heap of history to the Christian Church before the 1500’s, this article may be a good starting place regarding patrons:
newadvent.org/cathen/11562a.htm

I know that. Alexander’s mother was very sly and devious and was one reason Alexander lasted as long as he did (not hebrew, but macedonian, but same concept), but Jesus is not a normal hebrew. He is a god, he is not a human. His mother is physically his mother, but she is a virgin which I get, but still find akward, cause all humans must have sex to have a child (unless you do AI, which I have seen done to cows and is not pretty, but thats a different story) but I understand the whole Mary had Jesus, and Joseph wasn’t the father, even though he was Mary’s husband.

How come Joseph never gets any credit? He helped raise the boy too, I am sure.

lol what did I ever say about the 1500’s? You guys honestly think I cannot see after the reformation or something?

 

[jkarp]

. . . but Jesus is not a normal hebrew. He is a god, he is not a human.

You’re incorrect, Jesus was fully human and fully God. He may not have been a normal Hebrew but he was Hebrew. Hebrew law was instituted by God and Jesus came to fulfill the law, not destroy it. As such, He didn’t throw out everything that came before His public ministry, but brought it to fulfillment. When we read the bible it is important that we take off our 21st Century Christian goggles and put on our 1st Century Hebrew goggles. When we do this, everything begins to come into focus.

How come Joseph never gets any credit? He helped raise the boy too, I am sure.

Joseph is, in my opinion, the model of an ideal man. I ask for his help and intercession daily.

lol what did I ever say about the 1500’s? You guys honestly think I cannot see after the reformation or something?

Sure you see clearly after the reformation, it seems to be the parts that came before that are murky. I’m sure that you are aware that some stuff happened before the reformation but I’m pretty sure that you haven’t done much study of it. I’m sure there are more out there, but of all the protestants that I know (which comprise a large portion of my friends) only one has done any serious study of the history of the Christian Church before the 1500’s.

 

[Rolltide]

He is a god, he is not a human.

Actually, he’s FULLY man and FULLY God simultaneously. Many of the early heresies in the church dealt with people who didn’t believe that Jesus was actually human, or actually God. If he wasn’t fully human as well as fully God, the sacrifice on the cross wouldn’t have meant anything.

How come Joseph never gets any credit? He helped raise the boy too, I am sure.

You’re absolutely right. Joseph should get credit, and Catholics give plenty of devotion to St. Joseph. EWTN broadcasts the Litany of St. Joseph every week.
miraclerosarymission.org/litjos.htm

lol what did I ever say about the 1500’s? You guys honestly think I cannot see after the reformation or something?

I think they’re saying that your knowledge of the history of early Christianity is less than your knowledge of Christianity during the period of the Bible, and Christianity after 1500, when the Reformation occurred. A lot of important things happened in the history of Christianity between the death of the Apostles and 1500 too.

 

[guanophore]

Will do.

Your open mind and open heart are refreshing.

Would you rather me cuss them out and get banned? Cause thats where I usually want to go, but then I just sig it. I think its a good compromise myself.

Of course not! But let us not settle for any compromise. Let us strive for the best! Love covers a multitude of sins. That which you are lacking God will supply in abundance.

This really reminds me of Man in Black by Johnny Cash. “till things are brighter, im the man in black” I sig the dishonorable stuff, so people realize it. If you want to sig the honorable stuff, thats your choice.

You are pointing out wrongs, instead of giving honor to what is right. You are keeping a record of offenses.

Tried it before, nothing happened.

The mods will not openly discuss the disciplines given to other members. It is an error to think that “nothing happened”.

I watch it on EWTN, and even doing that disturbs my parents enough.

Understandibly.

I can pray for others, I never said it wasn’t effective, but I said that praying to Jesus for others is better then to mary for others.

One should not underestimate the power of intercession. Do you know, in the book of Job, God says He will only accept Job’s prayer, and not those of the others.

Um ya, but you’ve lost me on the point of that question.

What do you see happening at the wedding in Cana?

Where do we get the idea of patrons from?

I think it is from Gk. culture. I think the Greeks developed art, poetry, theatre, and other cultural arts because the society was rich enough for patrons (supporters) to pay for their keep so that they could focus on their art. The Romans absorbed this practice, and it is practiced spiritually in the Church.

She is special among humans. Not among Jesus, she is his physical mother, but Jesus is God/Jesus/Ghost. That makes Mary look very un-important.

Well, it does not to us. FOr us, it is the opposite. That the Creator of the Universe would humble Himself, becoming a man, born of a woman is a great honor to the Woman, and humanity.
Jesus took His flesh from her flesh, then gave that flesh for the life of the world.

A mother is not just a mother of a physical body, but of a Person. She was also the mother of His Soul, and nurtured His spirit. He relied upon her and entrusted Himself completely to her care.

 

[Irish_Polock]

if you are refering to St. John the baptist then you are correct in saying so.
but trishie was refer to the person whom Jesus choose as an apostle St.John,the evangilist,writer of the fourth gospel.and his account of the wedding feast at canna.in this account Mary is shown as one who points to Jesus.

Off topic but…

I thought that John the Evangelist was actually St. Mark (in Hebrew anyways), and John the Apostle was the writer of our forth gospel, the former being the writer of the second. Or is this completely wrong? And of course there is also John the Baptizer.

 

[guanophore]

but Jesus is not a normal hebrew. He is a god, he is not a human.

He is both! He is Son of David, and is the fulfillment of the Kingdom of David on a human level.

His mother is physically his mother, but she is a virgin which I get, but still find akward, cause all humans must have sex to have a child (unless you do AI, which I have seen done to cows and is not pretty, but thats a different story) but I understand the whole Mary had Jesus, and Joseph wasn’t the father, even though he was Mary’s husband.

When you consider that God was able to create all of the universe out of nothing, it is not hard to conceive that the Holy Spirit could overshadow Mary, and create the Son of Man within her womb.

How come Joseph never gets any credit? He helped raise the boy too, I am sure.

Catholics give Joseph a lot of credit. Apparently our reverence for him does not bother Protestants as much as our reverence for Mary.

lol what did I ever say about the 1500’s? You guys honestly think I cannot see after the reformation or something?

Truthfully, I am not sure what kind of faith tradition you have been exposed to that may be affecting your beliefs.

 

[ChristianKnight]

You are pointing out wrongs, instead of giving honor to what is right. You are keeping a record of offenses.

What is the problem with that?

The mods will not openly discuss the disciplines given to other members. It is an error to think that “nothing happened”.

It is not. Nothing happened. The guy was not banned, even though I know for a fact others warned him before, and on the same topic, I am pretty sure.

One should not underestimate the power of intercession. Do you know, in the book of Job, God says He will only accept Job’s prayer, and not those of the others.

No, and that doesn’t seem right to be honest.

What do you see happening at the wedding in Cana?

What?

I think it is from Gk. culture. I think the Greeks developed art, poetry, theatre, and other cultural arts because the society was rich enough for patrons (supporters) to pay for their keep so that they could focus on their art. The Romans absorbed this practice, and it is practiced spiritually in the Church.

Doesn’t make much sense, but umk.

A mother is not just a mother of a physical body, but of a Person. She was also the mother of His Soul, and nurtured His spirit. He relied upon her and entrusted Himself completely to her care.

That sounds wrong. If Jesus was dependant on Marry, then how is he a God? God’s do not depend on others. God are independant.

Actually, he’s FULLY man and FULLY God simultaneously. Many of the early heresies in the church dealt with people who didn’t believe that Jesus was actually human, or actually God. If he wasn’t fully human as well as fully God, the sacrifice on the cross wouldn’t have meant anything.

**… **

I think they’re saying that your knowledge of the history of early Christianity is less than your knowledge of Christianity during the period of the Bible, and Christianity after 1500, when the Reformation occurred. A lot of important things happened in the history of Christianity between the death of the Apostles and 1500 too.

I don’t know much about Christian History, and frankly, I prefer Military History to it, by far.

Sure you see clearly after the reformation, it seems to be the parts that came before that are murky. I’m sure that you are aware that some stuff happened before the reformation but I’m pretty sure that you haven’t done much study of it. I’m sure there are more out there, but of all the protestants that I know (which comprise a large portion of my friends) only one has done any serious study of the history of the Christian Church before the 1500’s.

I doubt I’ll ever take a class for any Christian History.

 

[fbl9]

Off topic but…

I thought that John the Evangelist was actually St. Mark (in Hebrew anyways), and John the Apostle was the writer of our forth gospel, the former being the writer of the second. Or is this completely wrong? And of course there is also John the Baptizer.

okay the writer of the second gospel John Mark,aka St.Mark the evangilist…writer of the fourth Gospel St.John the evangilist aka St.John the apostle of Jesus.
clear as mud:thumbsup:

 

[Rolltide]

I don’t know much about Christian History, and frankly, I prefer Military History to it, by far.

I doubt I’ll ever take a class for any Christian History.

But see, Christian history and theology doesn’t just end at the end of the Acts of the Apostles. Nor does it end with the death of the Apostle John and Revelations. It keeps going. There’s so MUCH that developed in the early church. Many groups tried to undermine the early church. There were heretics, like the Gnostics, Docetists, and Arians. There were MANY martyrs. The liturgy (church services) developed, and many are still practiced in exactly the same way today. There were doctrinal disputes, and great philosophers and saints like St. Augustine. There were incredible works of charity. The church preserved the ancient knowledge of the Romans. The church created the entire school and university system the way that we know it today. And yes, there were problems. Many were fixed. Some were not. If you want to know WHY Christianity and denominations are the way they are today, you just about can’t even have an intelligent conversation without knowing about this stuff. It’s quite fascinating.

As an aside, I do teach some military history too, so if you have any questions for an expert, I could probably help you out.

 

[ChristianKnight]

But see, Christian history and theology doesn’t just end at the end of the Acts of the Apostles. Nor does it end with the death of the Apostle John and Revelations. It keeps going. There’s so MUCH that developed in the early church. Many groups tried to undermine the early church. There were heretics, like the Gnostics, Docetists, and Arians. There were MANY martyrs. The liturgy (church services) developed, and many are still practiced in exactly the same way today. There were doctrinal disputes, and great philosophers and saints like St. Augustine. There were incredible works of charity. The church preserved the ancient knowledge of the Romans. The church created the entire school and university system the way that we know it today. And yes, there were problems. Many were fixed. Some were not. If you want to know WHY Christianity and denominations are the way they are today, you just about can’t even have an intelligent conversation without knowing about this stuff. It’s quite fascinating.

As an aside, I do teach some military history too, so if you have any questions for an expert, I could probably help you out.

Nah, my school doesn’t even teach that, closest I got is Honors US History, they shut down AP cause no one signed up for it. Ticked me off. I am talking to my teacher about me doing the whole AP US History book and doing the Honor’s class, and maybe being able to get the AP credit.

 

[jkarp]

I doubt I’ll ever take a class for any Christian History.

I’m not suggesting that you become a scholar of Church history but to be willfully ignorant of what those before us have said and written? Do you have any particular reason for your refusal to look at what our Christian fathers have said?

 

[ChristianKnight]

I’m not suggesting that you become a scholar of Church history but to be willfully ignorant of what those before us have said and written? Do you have any particular reason for your refusal to look at what our Christian fathers have said?

Yes, debates. My debates never end well.

 

[guanophore]

"guanophore:

You are pointing out wrongs, instead of giving honor to what is right. You are keeping a record of offenses.

What is the problem with that?

It is contrary to the teachings of Jesus.

“Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.” 1 Cor 13:4-7

This is a good measure for all of us to use. Substitute your name for the word love to evaluate your obedience to God.

guanophore is patient; guanophore is kind, etc.

. Nothing happened. The guy was not banned, even though I know for a fact others warned him before, and on the same topic, I am pretty sure.

You are wrong. We can discuss this privately.

No, and that doesn’t seem right to be honest.

God gets to be in charge, and His idea of right is what prevails.

Rom 9:18
" So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses."
"guanophore:

What do you see happening at the wedding in Cana?

What?

Please read the Gospel of John chap. 2, and tell me how you see the role of Mary.
"guanophore:

A mother is not just a mother of a physical body, but of a Person. She was also the mother of His Soul, and nurtured His spirit. He relied upon her and entrusted Himself completely to her care.

That sounds wrong. If Jesus was dependant on Marry, then how is he a God? God’s do not depend on others. God are independant.

This is a very good question, and one that was wrestled with by the theologians and fathers of the Church for decades. Finally they understood that Jesus had two natures, one divine, one human. It was called the “hypostatic union”. Meaning that the two natures were complete in one Person. Jesus was dependent upon Mary in his human nature. Jesus poured out His divine privilege, and took upon Himself human form.

“…Christ Jesus,
6 who, though he was in the form of God,
did not regard equality with God
as something to be exploited,
7 but emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
being born in human likeness.
And being found in human form,
8 he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death —
even death on a cross.” Phil 2:5-8

In that form, He was completely helpless and dependent upon Joseph and Mary for His care, just like every human infant.

I don’t know much about Christian History, and frankly, I prefer Military History to it, by far.

I think you will come to find a lot of overlap.

I doubt I’ll ever take a class for any Christian History.

Well, don’t limit your options. Hopefully you will go to college, and there you can find a number of classes that will benefit your study of the faith. I took Christian history at Seminary, and it gave me a whole new perspective on the world and society.

 

[ChristianKnight]

guanophore:

This is a very good question, and one that was wrestled with by the theologians and fathers of the Church for decades. Finally they understood that Jesus had two natures, one divine, one human. It was called the “hypostatic union”. Meaning that the two natures were complete in one Person. Jesus was dependent upon Mary in his human nature. Jesus poured out His divine privilege, and took upon Himself human form.

Well, don’t limit your options. Hopefully you will go to college, and there you can find a number of classes that will benefit your study of the faith. I took Christian history at Seminary, and it gave me a whole new perspective on the world and society.

Well, I thought about becoming a hermit or monk. I like the idea of reading the bible for hours a day, praying. My only thing is, I need at least one of my hobbies, which I don’t know if is allowed. One major thing I liked about, and still like, is that monks were allowed to work in gardens for a large part of the day, and farming is a passion I cannot give up. I love animals too.

I plan to go to college after the Army. I am going to the Army to try to be a helicopter pilot or a Green Beret. Either way, I want to go to college and major in Military History, and get minors in something like Philosophy and maybe something else.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, debates. My debates never end well.

I understand this, but as you grow in the Spirit, you will find that you are much more successful. Fruit is something that takes time to produce, and to mature. Did you know they pick bananas totally green? IN the store, when they are ripe, they often throw them out because they are starting to turn brown. Breaks the heart! I purchase the ripest bananas in the bin, then let them sit for several days I like them soft and sweet.

Gal 5:22-26
“…the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also be guided by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, competing against one another, envying one another.”

1 Peter 3:15-16
Always be ready to make your defense to anyone who demands from you an accounting for the hope that is in you; 16 yet do it with gentleness and reverence. Keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who abuse you for your good conduct in Christ may be put to shame.

As you grow in your faith, fruit will naturally be produced, and you will find more gentleness and reverence in your debates.