Questions my baptist friend had about the catholic faith

[Esdra]

I am not asking about Protestant Church’s Esdra. You tell me this. How can a Priest possibly let someone go in front of the Church knowing that do not have the Sacraments of Baptism, Communion and Confession and let them condemn themself in front of God, and then turn around and face God by disobeying his commands.

When you show me how that is possible then you can show me how Protestants can come together into one Communion with Christ.

Unless you are saying that when a Priest stands before God and take the Sacrament of Holy Orders he is not bound to them.

Well, as I told you before. I haven’t started talking about the CC. You did…

 

[Esdra]

Well, It kinda goes against everything I have ever heard or read and really would make you have to wonder why anyone would get married to begin with if its not in the bible that sex outside of marrigae is wrong and a sin.

You know what my mom once said when I addressed the topic sex outside marriage is forbidden?

“Since Vaticanum II, it’s up to everyone’s choice to either choice to not have sex before marriage or to have sex.” - My sister has had a friend know for 3 years. And I am sure, they do have sex. Both are Catholics (and you rinnie know, if you can remember, what I told you about mom, how faithful she once was.) - but not really practicing.

How did she come to that conclusion?

Another quote of her, “She didn’t have sex before her marriage with my dad, but”, so she said, “she would never ever do that again!”

My cousin married last weekend (civil and Catholic) - he is the same age than I am. (this means quite young.)
He lived with his present wife for 6 years without being married. Do you really think she didn’t have sex with her?

 

[Esdra]

Well, strictly speaking, there isn’t one. There are several. Here are three:

1 Cor. 6:9 – Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 Cor. 7:2 – Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

Gal. 5:19 – Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,…

But that’s a matter of interpretation. Does a couple that lives together for, let’s say, 6 years and loves each other really do fornication by having sex despite being married?
You know, times have changed. Nowadays people don’t marry so early they did 20 years ago. (My mom i.e. married with 20!) - For most people that’s not an option anymore.

 

[hesco]

There are lots of quick and dirty answers, that are easily understood by Catholics, but will have no effect on your Baptist friend. Something with a little meat in it will greatly help in the long run. I say get a copy of Catholicism for Dummies and read it, then lend it to your friend. Better yet, get two copies.

That is an awsome book!! That remonds me I need to return mine to our parish priest

 

[Erich]

But that’s a matter of interpretation. Does a couple that lives together for, let’s say, 6 years and loves each other really do fornication by having sex despite being married?

I assume you meant to say despite not being married. If they’re having sex and they’re not married, by definition they’re fornicating.

This article, entitled Fornication and Adultery (What’s the Difference?), should be helpful to you. (Elsewhere on the site, the author refers to “The Lord’s Supper” as “one of two ordinances given to the Church by our Lord Jesus,” and also mentions that “we can rest assured that a person once saved can not possibly lose their Salvation” so I assume he comes from a Baptist background.)

 

[Esdra]

I assume you meant to say despite not being married. If they’re having sex and they’re not married, by definition they’re fornicating.

Yes, correct. Typo!

This article, entitled Fornication and Adultery (What’s the Difference?), should be helpful to you. (Elsewhere on the site, the author refers to “The Lord’s Supper” as “one of two ordinances given to the Church by our Lord Jesus,” and also mentions that “we can rest assured that a person once saved can not possibly lose their Salvation” so I assume he comes from a Baptist background.)

Hi

thank you for the link. I’ll have a look at it when I am at home again.

Looks promising and interesting.

 

[rinnie]

You know what my mom once said when I addressed the topic sex outside marriage is forbidden?

“Since Vaticanum II, it’s up to everyone’s choice to either choice to not have sex before marriage or to have sex.” - My sister has had a friend know for 3 years. And I am sure, they do have sex. Both are Catholics (and you rinnie know, if you can remember, what I told you about mom, how faithful she once was.) - but not really practicing.

How did she come to that conclusion?

Another quote of her, “She didn’t have sex before her marriage with my dad, but”, so she said, “she would never ever do that again!”

My cousin married last weekend (civil and Catholic) - he is the same age than I am. (this means quite young.)
He lived with his present wife for 6 years without being married. Do you really think she didn’t have sex with her?

What does Vatican II have to do with having sex outside or before marriage. Are you trying to say that the Church allows this? If so I have the Vatican Council II right in front of me at this very moment and fail to see this.

I do recall years ago Pope Johm Paul II saying that if a women and a man live together for FINANCIAL REASONS ONLY and live as BROTHER and SISTER this is not a sin.

But with that said there is absolutely no Physical attraction or feeling displayed whatsoever. If this relationship would develop into a threat of a sexual relationship marriage or moving out is necessary.

LIke for example my Mother who is 80 could also live with my best friends Mother who is eighty and they could share a house have thier on bedroom etc, just share living expenses for financial reasons.

Now of course in society today they could both be accused of being gay the same as a man and women at that age can be accused of having sexual relations.

But as we know people love to talk smack on eachother. But the main point is if there is no sin going on in that house God knows the truth and that is all that the people have to worry about.

But in the same token if 2 people are indeed living together as brother and sister, sister and sister etc. and someone starts a lie about it. that person is who is in the state of sin and better be ready to face God with that sin.

But as far as I KNOW that is all the Pope said. That it is okay for a man and women to live together as Brother and Sister that was his words.

 

[Esdra]

What does Vatican II have to do with having sex outside or before marriage. Are you trying to say that the Church allows this? If so I have the Vatican Council II right in front of me at this very moment and fail to see this.

I do recall years ago Pope Johm Paul II saying that if a women and a man live together for FINANCIAL REASONS ONLY and live as BROTHER and SISTER this is not a sin.

But with that said there is absolutely no Physical attraction or feeling displayed whatsoever. If this relationship would develop into a threat of a sexual relationship marriage or moving out is necessary.

LIke for example my Mother who is 80 could also live with my best friends Mother who is eighty and they could share a house have thier on bedroom etc, just share living expenses for financial reasons.

Now of course in society today they could both be accused of being gay the same as a man and women at that age can be accused of having sexual relations.

But as we know people love to talk smack on eachother. But the main point is if there is no sin going on in that house God knows the truth and that is all that the people have to worry about.

But in the same token if 2 people are indeed living together as brother and sister, sister and sister etc. and someone starts a lie about it. that person is who is in the state of sin and better be ready to face God with that sin.

But as far as I KNOW that is all the Pope said. That it is okay for a man and women to live together as Brother and Sister that was his words.

Yes, I am trying to say that, better said my mom tried.

So if it’s not Vaticanum II - where would she have that from then?
Could it be that it says in the “newest” Catechism?

I know she said the source, but I forgot…
And as you know, rinnie, until fairly recently, mom as a faithful Catholic. And I am sure she’s read all Church documents.

 

[rinnie]

But that’s a matter of interpretation. Does a couple that lives together for, let’s say, 6 years and loves each other really do fornication by having sex despite being married?
You know, times have changed. Nowadays people don’t marry so early they did 20 years ago. (My mom i.e. married with 20!) - For most people that’s not an option anymore.

And yes Esdra the answer is YES. A couple that have sex outside of marriage is called formication and it is indeed a sin. Always was and always will be until the day Jesus comes again in glory to change it.

The best adivce I can tell couples who are doing this is forget about the past, go to the Priest, confess your sin, repent, and stop this sin and either quit having sex outside of marriage or get married and get your soul out of the state of mortal sin.

That is why the Sacrament of Confession is so wonderful for us today and such a free and unmerited Gift from our Loving Father. He gave the Priest that authority to forgive our sin and get us back into the grace with our Almighty Father.

The Priest is not here to condemn, that is not the reason God put him here. He is here to teach us the true word and get us all back into the State of Grace. People do not realize how powerful a Priest is by the authoirty given to him by God and how he is here to help save us.

 

[rinnie]

Yes, I am trying to say that, better said my mom tried.

So if it’s not Vaticanum II - where would she have that from then?
Could it be that it says in the “newest” Catechism?

I know she said the source, but I forgot…
And as you know, rinnie, until fairly recently, mom as a faithful Catholic. And I am sure she’s read all Church documents.

No from what I read you said your Mom said you can have sex outside of marriage its your choice. That is not the teaching of the CC. Nor did she get this from Vatican II.

 

[Esdra]

And yes Esdra the answer is YES. A couple that have sex outside of marriage is called formication and it is indeed a sin. Always was and always will be until the day Jesus comes again in glory to change it.

The best adivce I can tell couples who are doing this is forget about the past, go to the Priest, confess your sin, repent, and stop this sin and either quit having sex outside of marriage or get married and get your soul out of the state of mortal sin.

That is why the Sacrament of Confession is so wonderful for us today and such a free and unmerited Gift from our Loving Father. He gave the Priest that authority to forgive our sin and get us back into the grace with our Almighty Father.

The Priest is not here to condemn, that is not the reason God put him here. He is here to teach us the true word and get us all back into the State of Grace. People do not realize how powerful a Priest is by the authoirty given to him by God and how he is here to help save us.

Nice and good, sister rinnie.
BUT, 80% of all young people I know DO practice sex outside of their marriage. If you tell someone I won’t they’ll look at you like “Whaaaaaaaat?! - How conservative and prude are you?!”
Most of them are at best non-practicing Catholics, if not even Atheists (meaning declined from the Church) -and, I am sorry to say that, they don’t give a ++++ what the Church thinks and “confession is also not necessary”, they say and, “It’s all so old-fashioned. Nowadays that’s not needed anymore.”
Or as my sister would put it, “We are not living in the Middle Ages anymore, are we?”

 

[Esdra]

No from what I read you said your Mom said you can have sex outside of marriage its your choice. That is not the teaching of the CC. Nor did she get this from Vatican II.

Yes, and she meant exactely that.
She told me the source where she had that from, but I am afraid, I forgot which source she quoted.
And she even said that so self-assured, as if everybody would need to know that.

 

[rinnie]

Nice and good, sister rinnie.
BUT, 80% of all young people I know DO practice sex outside of their marriage. If you tell someone I won’t they’ll look at you like “Whaaaaaaaat?! - How conservative and prude are you?!”
Most of them are at best non-practicing Catholics, if not even Atheists (meaning declined from the Church) -and, I am sorry to say that, they don’t give a ++++ what the Church thinks and “confession is also not necessary”, they say and, “It’s all so old-fashioned. Nowadays that’s not needed anymore.”
Or as my sister would put it, “We are not living in the Middle Ages anymore, are we?”

What does living up to the word of God have to do with living in the middle ages. Where did I say that people today are NOT living in sin. That are!!

But where did Jesus say that the majority rules. Are we going by the rules of the devil or the rules of Christ. Yes the devil will give you any reason to sin, whats new with that?

But what does it matter if one million people sin or 2 sin? Are you trying to say that if everyone sins its no longer a sin?

 

[rinnie]

Yes, and she meant exactely that.
She told me the source where she had that from, but I am afraid, I forgot which source she quoted.
And she even said that so self-assured, as if everybody would need to know that.

Esdra a news flash for you. She did not get it from the Pope of the RCC. That you can take to the bank.

Here it is in the CCC.

You may want to ask you Mother to show you how she gets her interpretation from this.

2533 CCC Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and women. It is gravelly CONTRARY to the dignity of persons and human sexuality which is naturallly order to the good of spuses and generation and education of children, Moreover is is a GRAVE scandal when there is corruption of the young.

SO it plain english it is a double SIN, you are sinning and you are subjecting your child to the sin also. Grace means MORTAL SIN Esdra.

You have separated yourself from Christ.

 

[rinnie]

Yes, and she meant exactely that.
She told me the source where she had that from, but I am afraid, I forgot which source she quoted.
And she even said that so self-assured, as if everybody would need to know that.

Well I am sure it was not from the RCC. IF she can supply us with that quote I would love to see it. But I can bet you my last dollar it did not come from the RCC.

SIn if forbidden and is never acceptable in the RCC. Never was, never will be.

 

[adrift]

You know what my mom once said when I addressed the topic sex outside marriage is forbidden?

“Since Vaticanum II, it’s up to everyone’s choice to either choice to not have sex before marriage or to have sex.” - My sister has had a friend know for 3 years. And I am sure, they do have sex. Both are Catholics (and you rinnie know, if you can remember, what I told you about mom, how faithful she once was.) - but not really practicing.

How did she come to that conclusion?

I don’t know why she did but it is contrary to what the Church teaches.
From the Catechesim.

2353
Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.

 

[Esdra]

What does living up to the word of God have to do with living in the middle ages. Where did I say that people today are NOT living in sin. That are!!

But where did Jesus say that the majority rules. Are we going by the rules of the devil or the rules of Christ. Yes the devil will give you any reason to sin, whats new with that?

But what does it matter if one million people sin or 2 sin? Are you trying to say that if everyone sins its no longer a sin?

No, not at all. I just quoted my sister, as well as many collegues (female and male) of mine who think so.
What happend, rinnie, can you tell me?
Why did satan get “over night”, if you want to, (we are talking about the past 40 years maximum) get so much power over the people?
That people don’t care at all what Jesus said/says and His Church (no matter which denomination in this case!).

 

[Esdra]

Well I am sure it was not from the RCC. IF she can supply us with that quote I would love to see it. But I can bet you my last dollar it did not come from the RCC.

Sin is forbidden and is never acceptable in the RCC. Never was, never will be.

Okay, I’ll ask her.

 

[rinnie]

No, not at all. I just quoted my sister, as well as many collegues (female and male) of mine who think so.
What happend, rinnie, can you tell me?
Why did satan get “over night”, if you want to, (we are talking about the past 40 years maximum) get so much power over the people?
That people don’t care at all what Jesus said/says and His Church (no matter which denomination in this case!).

SImple Esdra Satan is FUN!! With him it is worry about yourself and forget everyone else.

When did you ever hear your grandmother say I have to get myself some shoes. NO she got her Children shoes. Our generation was a very me me generation and don’t wait CHARGE IT and now we are in a mess.

When did you ever hear your Grandmother say I need to pay 100.00 to get a massage I am so stressed when she had a house that was not paid off.

The devil is fun until he lets you have so much fun you destroy yourself, and sadly take others with you.

Instead of saying this is right or wrong simply because GOD SAID SO. We are told mind your own business,

How many older people would have said to their Great or GrandMother mind you own business? No you would have been embarassed and tried to hide this from Granny.

 

[rinnie]

Okay, I’ll ask her.

Better yet buddy, get out your phone book. Call any Roman Catholic Church you want.