Questions of curiosity for converts to Catholicism

[Tommy999]

I know for certain the Church does not advocate staying with an abusive spouse, endangering herself (or himself) and the children. As I understand it, we are not to seek suffering, but when it comes to us anyway it can be joined to Christ’s suffering and be fruitful.

Glad to hear that, katy. Perhaps I misunderstood what they are saying. I’ve been known to misinterpret things before every now and then – just ask my wife.

I can understand that in terms of things that are out of our control, like disease, a car accident or other act of fate, but I hope that isn’t the case in preventable situations where we can take action. That was my only point. Thanks again for clarifying.

 

[Tommy999]

I am happier, more at peace, and more compassionate. That isn’t to say I am always experiencing or demonstrating the maximal of any of these. I still experience ups and downs. But over all I experience these more and to a greater degree.

My faith is greatly enhanced. I have a deeper and stronger faith. In particular I feel a greater bond to the Church throughout time and place. As a Protestant I certainly recognized other Christians. But it is different as a Catholic. We were recently lucky enough to vacation in Hawaii. When we attended Mass there I didn’t feel completely like a visitor. I felt like the local church was just as much mine as my home parish. As a Protestant I could have attended other services, though I never did. But I don’t imagine I would have experienced the same sense of not really just belonging but, properly understood, ownership.

As a Catholic I also feel tied through history all the way back to the Church at its foundation. As a Protestant we certainly viewed ourselves as continuing in the teachings of Jesus. But the fundamental foundation of Protestantism is that the Church in some way got significantly off the tracks. In my experience, other than folks mentioned in the Bible, we mostly concerned ourselves with Christians from the founding of Protestantism up until today. There was oddly an exception for St. Augustine.

Now I get to experience Saints from throughout the history of the Church. And with that I get specific examples of how diverse men and women submitted to the will of God. I find these holy men and women to be great inspiration. But as important is that throughout the Catholic world the Church is honoring these same Saints at the same time. As a Protestant I might hear about a holy person in a sermon or in a book. But the whole Protestant world wasn’t joining together on a specific day to honor and learn from that person’s example.

My faith has been enhanced by daily Mass. I can go to Mass any day of the week. I can offer God the highest form of worship every day. I can experience the sacramental presence of God every day. I can enter a quiet church and pray before God every day. Nothing can build faith more than this.

No, my material condition has not changed. Things are the same.

Thanks for the reply, exnihilo. I especially take to heart what you mentioned about Church history and the sense of unity that exists with the Catholic Church (your Hawaii example).
I gained some insights from them and appreciate it very much.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Thanks for sharing, Lenten_ashes. I really like your analogies about the HDTV and “Joe Blow from Idaho”. I wonder if he is related to Joe Blow from Kokomo? .

Also, the Mary aspect is quite interesting to me. I’d be interested in hearing more about the transformation in your life from Mary as an obstacle to your conversion to being a strong ally now who enhances your faith.

LOL, yes, Tommy he is like a distant cousin of Joe Blow from Kokomo

I started out many years ago wanting to expose Catholicism as a false and pagan religion. I was downtown touring the Cathedral here and I saw this little old lady on the floor groveling around and wailing as she said something in Espanol to a statue of the blessed Mother. And my evangelical, Jesus loving blood was boiling in my veins. I wanted to tell that woman to get off her knees and stop praying to a false god.

But instead, I kept my mouth shut and explored the Catholic church so I could dissect it piece by piece and later inform Catholics of the lie I thought they were living. And as I studied the Catechism, ECF’s, origin of the Bible and many Catholic/Protestant debates, I began to realize they were correct in their positions and often times were saying the same thing as protestants, just speaking different languages.

So I eventually get to the point where I’m in agreement with the church on everything except their position on the Blessed Mother. And I’m feeling more Catholic than protestant and cant fight this feeling…

The things that really convinced me of Mary’s position and made me seek her intercession were as follows:

1.) The communion of saints.The understanding that Jesus has ONE body, not one body in heaven and one on earth…one mystical body that we are all a part of. And with Jesus as the head, He is the “nerve center” so to speak, so this is how we, all connected, can ask saints for prayer and they act on our behalf interceding for us just like my buddies and Baptist family members do.

2.) The protoevangelium…Genesis 3:15. It says God put “enmity” between Satan and the woman who is Mary. That word enmity, look it up in the dictionary and it means hatred or hostility, it is a very strong word. Combine that with her being “full of grace” and you get a idea of why the Church declared these things about her,(immaculate conception, etc) whether we agree or not they do have some basis for believing it.

3.) The incredible parallel between 2nd Samuel 6 and Luke chapter 1 and Mary as Ark of the New covenant. I’ll post a link here because it’s a lot to discuss and I don’t want to babble and bore you:

agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Virgin%20Mary%20as%20the%20Ark%20of%20the%20New%20Covenant.htm

4.) Combine Genesis 3:15, Revelation 11:19 and Revelation 12 and it’s all making sense to me now. Mary is much more important than I as a protestant, have given her credit for (Matthew 23:12).

Now I ask for her intercession pretty much daily, I have to say, more peace has been added to my life and my prayers to the Lord seem to be answered at a higher rate when I ask for her intercession.I have a protestant friend who is a very holy man, and it’s the same thing with him. I pray and pray and pray and nothing happens. Then I ask for his prayers and the Lord moves through this man and miracles occur.

I now view the blessed Mother as a caring and nurturing Mother who happily intercedes on our behalf just like she did at Cana in John 2.

I’ll never be a “rosary Catholic” who spends all day in Marian Devotion like some of these folks, but I also now know that me asking her for prayer does not detract from my relationship with Jesus. Having been through RCIA I have seen first hand that Jesus is the focus of the Church. And if people within the Church are getting it twisted they act on their own accord and not conforming to the Church.

Sorry if that’s too long.

Thanks for the breath of fresh air thread, BTW and the good taste in Christian music.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

No, I do not adhere to OSAS and never have.

:extrahappy::bowdown2:

 

[Lenten_ashes]

However, I had heard on Catholic radio about some folks whose lives got a lot tougher after they became Catholic, and instead of praying for God to help them through or out of their problems and suffering, my interpretation of what they said was that they were proud to join their sufferings to those of Christ, or something to that effect.

Honestly, I was a little confused by that concept and didn’t know if it is prevalent within Catholicism. It almost sounded (to me) like it was an excuse to just resign themselves to their fate rather than to buckle down and ask God for help, but perhaps I misunderstood what they were saying. If you or someone else could help clarify that for me, I would appreciate it.

I know we have different understanding on salvation/justification and infused/imputed righteousness, but many protestants agree with me that we are in a form of purgatory right here on earth in these vessels we call bodies.

We believe that nothing imperfect enters heaven (Revelation 21:27) and those who die as a friend of God, yet are “worldly Christians” so to speak, will be purged of their attachments in purgatory 1 Corinthians 3:15. So if said purging takes place here, that’s actually a good thing as the goal is to be ready for heaven with a clean wedding garment at the moment of our death.

Have you ever heard of redemptive suffering, Tommy? Catholicsm believes that salvation is a process and that while God loves to bless us, He is ultimately more concerned about the fate of our eternal soul and will use these methods for our own benefit. “Offering it up” is a common expression. It’s like Jesus praying in the garden, we pray and ask our requests, but sometimes the answer is no and that God sees the bigger picture so we cant lean on our own understanding.

Pax

 

[Tommy999]

LOL, yes, Tommy he is like a distant cousin of Joe Blow from Kokomo

I started out many years ago wanting to expose Catholicism as a false and pagan religion. I was downtown touring the Cathedral here and I saw this little old lady on the floor groveling around and wailing as she said something in Espanol to a statue of the blessed Mother. And my evangelical, Jesus loving blood was boiling in my veins. I wanted to tell that woman to get off her knees and stop praying to a false god.

But instead, I kept my mouth shut and explored the Catholic church so I could dissect it piece by piece and later inform Catholics of the lie I thought they were living. And as I studied the Catechism, ECF’s, origin of the Bible and many Catholic/Protestant debates, I began to realize they were correct in their positions and often times were saying the same thing as protestants, just speaking different languages.

So I eventually get to the point where I’m in agreement with the church on everything except their position on the Blessed Mother. And I’m feeling more Catholic than protestant and cant fight this feeling…

The things that really convinced me of Mary’s position and made me seek her intercession were as follows:

1.) The communion of saints.The understanding that Jesus has ONE body, not one body in heaven and one on earth…one mystical body that we are all a part of. And with Jesus as the head, He is the “nerve center” so to speak, so this is how we, all connected, can ask saints for prayer and they act on our behalf interceding for us just like my buddies and Baptist family members do.

2.) The protoevangelium…Genesis 3:15. It says God put “enmity” between Satan and the woman who is Mary. That word enmity, look it up in the dictionary and it means hatred or hostility, it is a very strong word. Combine that with her being “full of grace” and you get a idea of why the Church declared these things about her,(immaculate conception, etc) whether we agree or not they do have some basis for believing it.

3.) The incredible parallel between 2nd Samuel 6 and Luke chapter 1 and Mary as Ark of the New covenant. I’ll post a link here because it’s a lot to discuss and I don’t want to babble and bore you:

agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Virgin%20Mary%20as%20the%20Ark%20of%20the%20New%20Covenant.htm

4.) Combine Genesis 3:15, Revelation 11:19 and Revelation 12 and it’s all making sense to me now. Mary is much more important than I as a protestant, have given her credit for (Matthew 23:12).

Now I ask for her intercession pretty much daily, I have to say, more peace has been added to my life and my prayers to the Lord seem to be answered at a higher rate when I ask for her intercession.I have a protestant friend who is a very holy man, and it’s the same thing with him. I pray and pray and pray and nothing happens. Then I ask for his prayers and the Lord moves through this man and miracles occur.

I now view the blessed Mother as a caring and nurturing Mother who happily intercedes on our behalf just like she did at Cana in John 2.

I’ll never be a “rosary Catholic” who spends all day in Marian Devotion like some of these folks, but I also now know that me asking her for prayer does not detract from my relationship with Jesus. Having been through RCIA I have seen first hand that Jesus is the focus of the Church. And if people within the Church are getting it twisted they act on their own accord and not conforming to the Church.

Sorry if that’s too long.

Thanks for the breath of fresh air thread, BTW and the good taste in Christian music.

Thanks very much, Lenten_ashes. This really helped. Asking for Mary to pray for me is something I’m ok with doing, I think. Actually, I’ve done it a few times already, but don’t tell anybody. .

I am even receptive to the Catholic definition of “communion of saints” as including our ability to ask for their intercessory prayer, although I used to believe that we could not ask for their prayers and there was a barrier between us and them, but not a barrier between us and God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

However, it is one thing to ask for them to pray for us. But it is an entirely different thing, in my view, to pray to them as if they could grant our request themselves as if they were divine. I wanted to make that distinction. Is the Catholic position that they can only intercede for us or do Catholics think – for instance – that Mary can grant a petition all by herself?

By the way, the concept of our “redemptive suffering” is not a familiar one to me, although I am quite familiar with Jesus’ redemptive suffering on the cross for our redemption and that we are to “take up our cross and follow Him” as Jesus states in Matthew 16:24. If you don’t mind, please elaborate. Are you referring to purgatory?

Thanks for the charitable and helpful replies, by the way. :tiphat:

 

[Jon_S_1]

Great questions Tommy.

The only position of the church is that the saints can pray for us and we can count on their intercession. They cannot intercede directly of their own will. It is God that intervenes and answers prayers.

Some Catholics conflate this and if their prayer is answered after they asked a saint for intercession they thank the saint for answering. That is an error. You can thank them for interceding.

Many cultures carry this practice too far and engage in idolatry. It’s a carry over from their pre Christian days and is condemned repeatedly by the church but is still a problem in some places.

I believe regarding redemptive suffering it is related to purgatory.

While our salvation is assured if we accept Christ and follow him into baptism and stay in a state of grace (or confess if we fail) our attachment to our sin nature remains.

In heaven there is no sin. No temptation or attachment to sin. We must be truly transformed to be there.

We can begin that process on earth and it finishes in purgatory if necessary. Suffering and offering it up is one way this occurs but there are many ways.

Think of it as sanctification a term you are more familiar with probably.

 

[Tommy999]

Great questions Tommy.

The only position of the church is that the saints can pray for us and we can count on their intercession. They cannot intercede directly of their own will. It is God that intervenes and answers prayers.

Some Catholics conflate this and if their prayer is answered after they asked a saint for intercession they thank the saint for answering. That is an error. You can thank them for interceding.

Many cultures carry this practice too far and engage in idolatry. It’s a carry over from their pre Christian days and is condemned repeatedly by the church but is still a problem in some places.

I believe regarding redemptive suffering it is related to purgatory.

While our salvation is assured if we accept Christ and follow him into baptism and stay in a state of grace (or confess if we fail) our attachment to our sin nature remains.

In heaven there is no sin. No temptation or attachment to sin. We must be truly transformed to be there.

We can begin that process on earth and it finishes in purgatory if necessary. Suffering and offering it up is one way this occurs but there are many ways.

Think of it as sanctification a term you are more familiar with probably.

Thanks for clarifying, Jon. Much appreciated. I am relieved to know that Catholicism doesn’t teach that Mary and the saints can intercede directly of their own will, That’s kind of what I thought was the teaching, but I have heard a few Catholics say they (for example) prayed to St Michael for something and he answered their prayer and granted their request, which threw up a red flag for me if that was the case.

Regarding the need to stay in a state of grace, please explain what would happen in the following scenario. I’ve often wondered about this sort of thing, although it would probably be a rare scenario in real life.

Scenario:
A good Catholic man has led a good and faithful life, being baptized, goes to confession regularly, loves his one and only wife and provides for them and is a good family man, and believes all Catholic teachings and partakes in all the sacraments regularly.

Let’s say that he goes to an office party one night and in a rare lapse in moral judgment he engages in sex with a woman who is not his wife. On the way home he starts feeling remorse for what happened. Then his car Is hit by a drunk driver on the highway and the man is killed.

Does our man go to heaven, hell, or purgatory? I realize that is God’s call to make, but he obviously didn’t die in a state of grace (if I understand Catholic teaching correctly) where he was able to confess to a priest before he died although he had otherwise led an exemplary life for most of his life. I was just curious about Catholic teaching in such a scenario.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Thanks for clarifying, Jon. Much appreciated. I am relieved to know that Catholicism doesn’t teach that Mary and the saints can intercede directly of their own will, That’s kind of what I thought was the teaching, but I have heard a few Catholics say they (for example) prayed to St Michael for something and he answered their prayer and granted their request, which threw up a red flag for me if that was the case.

Regarding the need to stay in a state of grace, please explain what would happen in the following scenario. I’ve often wondered about this sort of thing, although it would probably be a rare scenario in real life.

Scenario:
A good Catholic man has led a good and faithful life, being baptized, goes to confession regularly, loves his one and only wife and provides for them and is a good family man, and believes all Catholic teachings and partakes in all the sacraments regularly.

Let’s say that he goes to an office party one night and in a rare lapse in moral judgment he engages in sex with a woman who is not his wife. On the way home he starts feeling remorse for what happened. Then his car Is hit by a drunk driver on the highway and the man is killed.

Does our man go to heaven, hell, or purgatory? I realize that is God’s call to make, but he obviously didn’t die in a state of grace (if I understand Catholic teaching correctly) where he was able to confess to a priest before he died although he had otherwise led an exemplary life for most of his life. I was just curious about Catholic teaching in such a scenario.

One thing about St Michael. The Angels as Gods messengers can intervene but under Gods will and obedience to Him. For example the St Michael prayer asks him to defend us in battle against evil. We know that he is an archangel and leader of the angelic armies and so we know his commission from God and can ask his aid in that area. So angels are in a different category I would say.

As for your scenario, we have heard it many times, although it usually involves the man heading to the confessional when he gets hit by a bus!

Anyway, Catholic teaching is that we are bound to the sacraments but God is not. So while we don’t presume on anyone’s fate, we can say in this scenario for sake of discussion on salvation theory, that after the incident at the party, if he knowingly and deliberately chose the gravely sinful act, the man was no longer saved because his focus turned from God and on to himself. He chose separation from God. As long as he remained in that state he would be damned.

But Christ’s outstretched arm is always waiting for him to return. His mercy has no bounds but he will not force redemption on someone who doesn’t want it.

Once the man realized his sin, was sorry for it and repented to God in his heart he has begun to grab hold and return to Gods mercy. He must in obedience, go to confession for full reconciliation with God and the church and once he is done there, he is free of the eternal consequence of sin and if he died he would go to heaven.

So what if he died on the way? We can be assured of Gods mercy and that God knows the mans heart and that he would go to heaven.

Does this negate the confessional. By no means! This instead shows God’s majesty.

If the man knew about confession but chose not to go, and was killed he would not be saved because he stood in defiant disobedience to Gods will.

So in general principles this is how it goes.

What about Purgatory?

In any of the heaven scenarios above the man may or may not go to purgatory. It’s hard to say. Purgatory is simply where we are cleaned up for heaven. It is not an in between place like people think. It is where we make right the EARTHLY CONSEQUENCES of our sins. The eternal consequence is decided, and if you are going to heaven you get freed and ready for God in Purgatory.

Hope that helps.

I love this quote on Purgatory,

“Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy.”

Pope Benedict XVI- Spe Salvi

 

[Jon_S_1]

Also this quote:

"The transforming ‘moment’ of this encounter cannot be quantified by the measurements of earthly time. It is, indeed, not eternal but a transition, and yet trying to qualify it as of ‘short’ or ‘long’ duration on the basis of temporal measurements derived from physics would be naive and unproductive. The ‘temporal measure’ of this encounter lies in the unsoundable depths of existence, in a passing-over where we are burned ere we are transformed. To measure such Existenzzeit, such an ‘existential time,’ in terms of the time of this world would be to ignore the specificity of the human spirit in its simultaneous relationship with, and differentation from, the world.
. . .
"[Purgatory] is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints.
. . .
“Encounter with the Lord is this transformation.”…

–Joseph Ratzinger, Eschatology: Death and Eternal Life, p. 230-231

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Thanks very much, Lenten_ashes. This really helped. Asking for Mary to pray for me is something I’m ok with doing, I think. Actually, I’ve done it a few times already, but don’t tell anybody. .

I am even receptive to the Catholic definition of “communion of saints” as including our ability to ask for their intercessory prayer, although I used to believe that we could not ask for their prayers and there was a barrier between us and them, but not a barrier between us and God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

However, it is one thing to ask for them to pray for us. But it is an entirely different thing, in my view, to pray to them as if they could grant our request themselves as if they were divine. I wanted to make that distinction. Is the Catholic position that they can only intercede for us or do Catholics think – for instance – that Mary can grant a petition all by herself?

By the way, the concept of our “redemptive suffering” is not a familiar one to me, although I am quite familiar with Jesus’ redemptive suffering on the cross for our redemption and that we are to “take up our cross and follow Him” as Jesus states in Matthew 16:24. If you don’t mind, please elaborate. Are you referring to purgatory?

Thanks for the charitable and helpful replies, by the way. :tiphat:

Tommy, your secret is safe with me my friend!! Took me years to even accept the Catholic definition of the communion of saints…

No, Mary cant grant anything by herself. Great as she is, she is still a created being. I’ve never read anything in Catholic teaching that even hints of Mary having the ability to personally answer prayers. Now I must admit, some of the language from these approved apparitions are a bit disturbing to me as I’m not sure that’s how the blessed Mother would be talking. However, you aren’t required to believe in apparitions as they are private revelation. Anything she or any Angel or Saint is doing comes from the direction of God.

In regards to redemptive suffering, we can’t save ourselves no matter how much hardship we endure. Only Christ’s sacrifice on the cross is sufficient for our salvation. This is a protestant misconception about redemptive suffering and purgatory. It is believed that most of us have at least a very brief stop in purgatory as we all seem to have some sort of attachment to sin. I have heard it described as taking a shower before you go to see the King so that you are presentable. Well, we do that already here on earth every Sunday we get cleaned up and put on our best clothes to honor the Lord.

I actually kind of used to believe in the prosperity, WOF gospel until I witnessed how false it is with my own eyes. Made a pilgrimage of sorts a few hundred miles to see a WOF minister. And the place was packed…they were literally bringing crippled people in from nursing homes and facilities to receive their miracles that I thought we were all entitled to as believers in Christ who paid for it all. And at the end of the service not one person received a miracle to my knowledge. If you came in in a wheel chair or hospital bed that is how you left the service. This was very disheartening and a few passages came to mind:

Hebrews 12:6New International Version (NIV)

6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”[a]

And:

1 Corinthians 5:5New International Version (NIV)

5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a]** so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.**

And:

Revelation 2:22Amplified Bible (AMP)

22 [a]Listen carefully, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her * into great anguish, unless they repent of her deeds.*

And it became clear to me that the Lord uses whatever means necessary to save our very stubborn souls and that “name it, claim it” is a false gospel.

Ideally we want to have perfect contrition, doing things out of pure love for God. But if we cant muster up love for God, fear isn’t a bad place to start lol. A “come to Jesus moment” is a way the protestant friends would call this.

Suffering is so paradoxical, Jesus, the God-man hanging from a cross looks like defeat yet it is actually great victory. It’s a great mystery that we meditate upon. And if it comes our way and becomes clear that it is the Lord’s will, we should embrace it, IMO.

A short clip about it from someone I respect:

youtube.com/watch?v=Q9E4L_dRk4Y

The Lord be with you, friend!!

 

[exnihilo]

Thanks very much, Lenten_ashes. This really helped. Asking for Mary to pray for me is something I’m ok with doing, I think. Actually, I’ve done it a few times already, but don’t tell anybody. .

I am even receptive to the Catholic definition of “communion of saints” as including our ability to ask for their intercessory prayer, although I used to believe that we could not ask for their prayers and there was a barrier between us and them, but not a barrier between us and God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

However, it is one thing to ask for them to pray for us. But it is an entirely different thing, in my view, to pray to them as if they could grant our request themselves as if they were divine. I wanted to make that distinction. Is the Catholic position that they can only intercede for us or do Catholics think – for instance – that Mary can grant a petition all by herself?

I asked for the Blessed Virgin’s intercession and started praying the rosary in secret quite some time before I actually decided to formally explore entering the Church.

I understand the importance of the distinction between asking for prayers and asking a Saint to do something. I also understand the discomfort Protestants can feel at hearing how Catholics can talk about seeking the assistance of Saints. I as a convert sometimes feel uncomfortable with certain language. But I think it is a complex issue.

First we must understand that language is not always precise. Today I read about a Protestant woman I know whose family experienced a house fire. Tragically both of her children died in the fire. The news article quoted the family as saying the children are soaring with the Angels. Is this accurate? We could say this is presumptive concerning their eternal destination. Do Angels fly? If a man is in Heaven and does not have a resurrected body can he fly? We might pick apart the statement but we understand the real core of it, that the children died and the parents have faith and hope in God.

Next we must consider what happens to us when we die in God’s friendship and what it means to be divine. Addressing the later first sometimes folks are too restrictive in saying we attribute to man what is only of God. All created things owe their existence and abilities, whatever they are, to God. We have personhood as God does. We have a will as God does. We have knowledge as God does. Of course how we posses these things is different then how God possesses them. And nothing we have do we have intrinsically. But all men share in some ways in God’s nature.

When we die in God’s friendship we become more like God. The orthodox use the term theosis. In the West we might call it divinization. It says in 2 Peter we become partakers of the divine nature. What exactly does this mean? That could be a long separate discussion. But I would say that while there is a limit to how like God man can become popular theology in my opinion can neglect to explore the concept at all. This is often done so from a good motive of protecting God’s sovereignty but it may be at the expense of truth. God is generous. All that we are and have comes from him. In the act of creation he shared. In Jesus’ sacrifice he shared. What will Heaven be like given God’s sharing nature?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I asked for the Blessed Virgin’s intercession and started praying the rosary in secret quite some time before I actually decided to formally explore entering the Church.

I understand the importance of the distinction between asking for prayers and asking a Saint to do something. I also understand the discomfort Protestants can feel at hearing how Catholics can talk about seeking the assistance of Saints. I as a convert sometimes feel uncomfortable with certain language. But I think it is a complex issue.

First we must understand that language is not always precise. Today I read about a Protestant woman I know whose family experienced a house fire. Tragically both of her children died in the fire. The news article quoted the family as saying the children are soaring with the Angels?

In the Anglican parish I was in, the pastor also had a deliverance ministry. Performing Anglican exorcisms on people. And they would call upon the Arch Angel Michael but they would request that Jesus sends him. So they are doing what we do in the Catholic Church, but changing the language a bit out of fear of, i guess offending God.

As someone who is formerly military, I actually appreciated that because we had a chain of command that you didn’t break. And so, I too, get their apprehension.

 

[Tommy999]

One thing about St Michael. The Angels as Gods messengers can intervene but under Gods will and obedience to Him. For example the St Michael prayer asks him to defend us in battle against evil. We know that he is an archangel and leader of the angelic armies and so we know his commission from God and can ask his aid in that area. So angels are in a different category I would say.

As for your scenario, we have heard it many times, although it usually involves the man heading to the confessional when he gets hit by a bus!

Anyway, Catholic teaching is that we are bound to the sacraments but God is not. So while we don’t presume on anyone’s fate, we can say in this scenario for sake of discussion on salvation theory, that after the incident at the party, if he knowingly and deliberately chose the gravely sinful act, the man was no longer saved because his focus turned from God and on to himself. He chose separation from God. As long as he remained in that state he would be damned.

But Christ’s outstretched arm is always waiting for him to return. His mercy has no bounds but he will not force redemption on someone who doesn’t want it.

Once the man realized his sin, was sorry for it and repented to God in his heart he has begun to grab hold and return to Gods mercy. He must in obedience, go to confession for full reconciliation with God and the church and once he is done there, he is free of the eternal consequence of sin and if he died he would go to heaven.

So what if he died on the way? We can be assured of Gods mercy and that God knows the mans heart and that he would go to heaven.

Does this negate the confessional. By no means! This instead shows God’s majesty.

If the man knew about confession but chose not to go, and was killed he would not be saved because he stood in defiant disobedience to Gods will.

So in general principles this is how it goes.

What about Purgatory?

In any of the heaven scenarios above the man may or may not go to purgatory. It’s hard to say. Purgatory is simply where we are cleaned up for heaven. It is not an in between place like people think. It is where we make right the EARTHLY CONSEQUENCES of our sins. The eternal consequence is decided, and if you are going to heaven you get freed and ready for God in Purgatory.

Hope that helps.

I love this quote on Purgatory,

“Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy.”

Pope Benedict XVI- Spe Salvi

Thanks for the reply, Jon, especially for the answer to my scenario. I liked your answer very much. I had a misconception for awhile that Catholicism had a “What have you done for me lately?” approach to salvation from sin in the sense that it didn’t matter what you had done for the first 50 years of your life – it was what you had done on your last hours and minutes of life that could seal your eternal fate if you happened to make a bad choice just prior to death.

Otherwise, in a warped sort of way (thinking wise) it would seem better for a Catholic to die as soon as they left the confessional to ensure they went to heaven (either immediately or after purgatory), even if they had lived a pretty sinful life prior to that than to be someone who had lived an exemplary Catholic life (partaking in the sacraments on a regular basis and being a good Catholic in every other respect) only to slip up and sin just prior to death and be damned for all eternity based on timing – that just didn’t seem like something that a merciful God would do just based on timing, but that’s just me and how I look at things, which I realize is fallible.

Thanks again.

 

[Tommy999]

I asked for the Blessed Virgin’s intercession and started praying the rosary in secret quite some time before I actually decided to formally explore entering the Church.

I understand the importance of the distinction between asking for prayers and asking a Saint to do something. I also understand the discomfort Protestants can feel at hearing how Catholics can talk about seeking the assistance of Saints. as a convert sometimes feel uncomfortable with certain language. But I think it is a complex issue.

First we must understand that language is not always precise. Today I read about a Protestant woman I know whose family experienced a house fire. Tragically both of her children died in the fire. The news article quoted the family as saying the children are soaring with the Angels. Is this accurate? We could say this is presumptive concerning their eternal destination. Do Angels fly? If a man is in Heaven and does not have a resurrected body can he fly? We might pick apart the statement but we understand the real core of it, that the children died and the parents have faith and hope in God.

Next we must consider what happens to us when we die in God’s friendship and what it means to be divine. Addressing the later first sometimes folks are too restrictive in saying we attribute to man what is only of God. All created things owe their existence and abilities, whatever they are, to God. We have personhood as God does. We have a will as God does. We have knowledge as God does. Of course how we posses these things is different then how God possesses them. And nothing we have do we have intrinsically. But all men share in some ways in God’s nature.

When we die in God’s friendship we become more like God. The orthodox use the term theosis. In the West we might call it divinization. It says in 2 Peter we become partakers of the divine nature. What exactly does this mean? That could be a long separate discussion. But I would say that while there is a limit to how like God man can become popular theology in my opinion can neglect to explore the concept at all. This is often done so from a good motive of protecting God’s sovereignty but it may be at the expense of truth. God is generous. All that we are and have comes from him. In the act of creation he shared. In Jesus’ sacrifice he shared. What will Heaven be like given God’s sharing nature?

I agree, exnihilo;, especially with the part I bolded. It seems like there is a fine line sometimes. Most evangelical Protestants don’t have to wrestle with this because they are taught to not pray to Mary and the saints for intercession at all. However, if someone doesn’t cross the line, I personally think those prayers to Mary and the saints could be quite efficacious as scripture says when it says in James 5;16 that the fervent prayers of the righteous availeth much.

 

[Tommy999]

In the Anglican parish I was in, the pastor also had a deliverance ministry. Performing Anglican exorcisms on people. And they would call upon the Arch Angel Michael but they would request that Jesus sends him. So they are doing what we do in the Catholic Church, but changing the language a bit out of fear of, i guess offending God.

As someone who is formerly military, I actually appreciated that because we had a chain of command that you didn’t break. And so, I too, get their apprehension.

I like that wording, too. That is one of the aspects of Catholicism that I’ve never had trouble with – the hierarchical structure from the pope on down that reminds me of how armies that are effective function.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I like that wording, too. That is one of the aspects of Catholicism that I’ve never had trouble with – the hierarchical structure from the pope on down that reminds me of how armies that are effective function.

It’s definitely a positive and I think it was imperative in the early church, especially, to keep order and preserve the gospel.

Has it’s downfalls too, though. We know about the scandals…and if you have any matter that needs to go through Rome, like a annulment, it moves snail like.

Pax

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hello all,
This question is addressed to those who converted to Catholicism, especially those who used to belong to one of the Protestant faith traditions, although any convert is welcome to reply.

Questions:
Has your life changed in any significant way(s) since converting to Catholicism? if so, please elaborate

**Has your faith been enhanced? If so, please provide an example or two **

**Have you been blessed materially or in some other way since converting to Catholicism or have you encountered more struggles, or are things about the same as they have always been? **

Thanks to those of you who choose to reply. I am curious if there were any major changes in your life or lifestyle since you “Crossed the Tiber” and if there were, do you attribute them to your decision to convert or were they unrelated?

For instance, if you are doing better financially and/or in your health or family life, do you attribute those blessings to be from God for you becoming Catholic? Conversely, if you have seen more struggles and/or challenges in your life since becoming Catholic, do you think this is God’s way of testing your newfound faith or do you believe it is Satan attacking you for your decision, or are these things unrelated altogether to your decision to convert to Catholicism?

1. Yes, too many to elaborate on. I pray, go to church on Sunday, read the Bible, study religious “stuff”. I do weird things like hang a crucifix on my wall and bring home blessed leaves on Palm Sunday. (Weird, in the context of my atheist life but not weird for a Catholic.) I have jewelry with crosses and more than one rosary. The first cross ever brought into my home, and I mean ever, was a small and broken rosary that was given to me. (I fixed it.) But I mean to say these are things that come from my faith.
2. Of course. I am a convert from atheism. Faith for me was a real mystery. I consider my faith as a gift, a grace.
3. Ha, I have more organizations and people to donate to than I ever imagined existed. Also, a thing to come from my faith…giving, and a different view to my earnings, that it’s not just me and what I have done, but also what God has provided. A new question to ponder, that I didn’t have before…what is my financial responsibility, outside of my family?

 

[7_Sorrows]

I am a convert from the Episcopal and Anglican churches. I was not a practicing Christian for over 20 years and studied another 10 years about the Anglican way and Judaism and Catholicism before converting. I have been a Catholic for 8 years and have stayed pretty faithful. There have been some bumps in the road and I have faced many challenges and obstacles. Have I suddenly become wealthy since converting? No! In fact I lost most of my life savings from the real estate collapse and stock market crash right around the time I converted. I still have my moments of being cynical and angry and doubtful, but I also have the moments where I am close to God and feel the Holy Spirit. Would I return to protestantism? No!
I love the Mass and Adoration and my Catholic prayers and devotions.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

1. Yes, too many to elaborate on. I pray, go to church on Sunday, read the Bible, study religious “stuff”. I do weird things like hang a crucifix on my wall and bring home blessed leaves on Palm Sunday. (Weird, in the context of my atheist life but not weird for a Catholic.) I have jewelry with crosses and more than one rosary. The first cross ever brought into my home, and I mean ever, was a small and broken rosary that was given to me. (I fixed it.) But I mean to say these are things that come from my faith.
2. Of course. I am a convert from atheism. Faith for me was a real mystery. I consider my faith as a gift, a grace.
3. Ha, I have more organizations and people to donate to than I ever imagined existed. Also, a thing to come from my faith…giving, and a different view to my earnings, that it’s not just me and what I have done, but also what God has provided. A new question to ponder, that I didn’t have before…what is my financial responsibility, outside of my family?

Rebecca, Just out of curiosity, how were you introduced to the faith?

Thanks for sharing.

Pax