Questions on Annulments

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alchemon

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I never thought that I would need to ask these questions, but I am curious regarding my situation and the possibility of an annulment and various viewpoints. I realize that this type of question can only be truly viewed by the local parish, but I am interested in feedback.

My wife and I married in 2012 at a young age, she being 22; I was 21. At the time we were not catholic, and our marriage was officiated by an “ordained minister” but I am not aware of his background (would have been Protestant - possibly church of Christ). We became catholic in 2016, and we were asked if we wanted to “renew” our vows in the catholic church but we did not.

A few months ago, my wife came to me and said that she was no longer in love with me and such. She then moved into another room of our house, and lived in there for some period of time before finally moving out around a month ago. I have told her that I do not condone these actions, etc. but obviously cannot force her to stay. She wanted to immediately get divorced, but I have told her that I will not go to an attorney until 90 days after her leaving - which is about 60 days from now. She has indicated that she has no desire to reconcile nor attempt professional help.

She and I have remained civil and coparent our child by sharing custody. When asked she just says that she feels like she has “moved on” and “isn’t sure that she was in a proper state of mind before our marriage”. This is to say, that she and i met at 19 or so and dated for a year or so and then began to cohabitate. She feels as if it all moved very quickly and she wasn’t perhaps adequately mature to do so. It is hard to explain her thoughts, but those are the jist of it.

She has indicated that she has no intent to remain married to me and does not care if i date other women and such. At this point we would be divorced save my 90-day agreement. At this point I do not feel a desire to remain married to her, but feel a moral obligation to attempt reconciliation. She has indicated that this will not happen, etc.

I am curious of what my options are moving forward? I feel that I myself made valid vows which i intended to uphold for life, but I am also essentially being abandoned and not the one seeking divorce.

Any help/feedback is appreciated.
 
I’d bet you a ham sandwich that she met someone/connected with someone from her past and has been seeing them.

Continue to pray for her, do not date or behave in any way that does not behoove a married man.

Pray. And pray.
 
alchemon said:
At the time we were not catholic, and our marriage was officiated by an “ordained minister” but I am not aware of his background (would have been Protestant - possibly church of Christ).
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This is a presumptively valid marriage. If you divorce, you or she can petition the Church to examine the marriage for nullity.
alchemon said:
We became catholic in 2016, and we were asked if we wanted to “renew” our vows in the catholic church but we did not.
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I’m not really sure what that was about, but it isn’t relevant to the validity of your marriage unless perhaps one of you were baptized as a Catholic as a baby (or Orthodox).
 
I went through this last year. My wife said she did not want to be married to me anymore and we separated and started pursuing divorce. I have to say I am really disappointed in the response of @TheLittleLady. It is really disheartening when your world is being torn apart to have people who know nothing about the situation start making pronouncements they know what is going on even though they are not close to the situation. It makes things so much worse. And the “ham sandwich” remark trivializes it.

Nothing like infideltiy was going on in our situation. Nothing anyone could guess was going on in our situation. But that did not stop hurtful speculation by people who actually knew us. Actually, if it had been one of the “standard guesses” the situation would have been easier to deal with. But it was more complex.

Thankfully, after three tries at reconciliation, we got things back together. We bought a new house and we are happier than we have been in years. As dark as it got, the separation was the best thing that ever happened in our marriage.

Here’s what it took. It took completely taking a fresh look at our relationship with no preconceptions of what the outcome needed to be. We redesigned our relationship from the ground up. That way there was nothing to fix. It was all new. It took me being willing to do whatever it took to make it work. It took me letting her truly have an equal say in our relationship, which took me realizing and taking responsibility for the fact that I had never thought about that, much less attempted it.

I have to say the Church was no help. She went and saw a priest, who basically said, “Well if you are unhappy, you should separate and get a divorce.” Thanks, Father! I had to do this all on my own and go places in my head I had never gone before. But it was worth it.
 
She did disclose to me at the beginning of this process that she had feelings for someone at her work. I don’t think that these were her primary motivations though. Not that this even would be a huge issue to resolve at this point.

And as far as the other comments, I am willing to attempt to make things work, but if our agreement is between two people - then it takes both parties willingness to try. I have spoken to my priest a couple times about this, and I was basically told that it is a mutual bond that both parties must be consenting to. And that granting divorce may “help begin the healing process”. I just find it hard to imagine a scenario where I am effectively stuck in limbo indefinitely when I am not really actively pursuing the divorce.

Thank you again for the feedback.
 
Well I don’t know your situation and therefore I am not willing to speculate on it. I can only relate what happened to me. My wife initially had no willingness to try either. None. As I said, it took me three major, well thought out tries to get her to even want to try. I cannot relate to the idea that a divorce may “help begin the healing process.” A separation, yes, but not a divorce.

I will say I used some “levers” to get her to the table that were not all hearts and flowers. These sound unkind, but it was “tough love.” I wanted her back more than anything and I knew I had to do most of the changing, but I also knew that in addition to presenting the positive side, she needed to come face-to-face with some tough realities about divorce. It is easy for one side to do the “50 ways to leave your lover” thing and convince themselves that all will be great, but divorce sucks materially, socially and psychologically.

This may seem paradoxical, but as I was holding out the olive branch, I also played some hardball with the divorce and it got her attention enough to listen to what I was saying. I may not have gone through with some of what I said I would do, but I made her believe I would. She initially thought, oh, I’ll be free and he will have to support me forever and I’ll be fine.

But I studied up on divorce law in the various states and invested some money in good attorneys. I was able to paint a pretty bleak picture for her. I was going to move to a different state that had more male-friendly laws and less waiting time to file. So I could legally force a divorce on my terms. I could take a lower paying job and live a spartan existence and she would have not gotten enough to live on. Some states will try to prevent that, but there are states that will allow it. If there had been a child in play, I would have applied for joint custody and probably gotten it in my new state of residence. We only had dogs, but just my threatening to split them up tugged at her heartstrings.

I laid all that out for her, very dispassionately, but very convincingly. I left no doubt in her mind I would do what I said, even though I didn’t want to. I had to force her to the reconciliation table and once she was at the table, I could lay out the positive approach.

I also played the Church card. She tried to pretend that the vows didn’t matter, but deep down inside, I knew that old Catholic guilt was lurking. It was a delicate balance. I didn’t want to drive her farther away, but I couldn’t stand still for the direction things were going.

Whatever anyone thinks of my approach, it all worked out and we are back together and truly very happy. My message is that when things are darkest, don’t give up. Be willing to do what it takes for the outcome you want, the outcome you know is right.
 
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BTW, I also researched annulments also. Apologists claim they have very strict rules and the process is tough. What I learned is the process takes a while, but 90% of requested annulments get approved in the US and the “grounds for annulment,” there are something like 32 of them, read like a horoscopes. You can fit your situation into one of the grounds if you are skillful. I have to believe the 10% that don’t get approved were because the applicant didn’t do their homework. There is even at least one Canon law firm I found that I was going to hire. It was a former priest and a former nun who were both trained in Canon law and who help people do their annulment applications. So if that is the route you go, there is hope if you do it the right way.
 
jfz178 said:
BTW, I also researched annulments also. Apologists claim they have very strict rules and the process is tough. What I learned is the process takes a while, but 90% of requested annulments get approved in the US and the “grounds for annulment,” there are something like 32 of them, read like a horoscopes. You can fit your situation into one of the grounds if you are skillful. I have to believe the 10% that don’t get approved were because the applicant didn’t do their homework. There is even at least one Canon law firm I found that I was going to hire. It was a former priest and a former nun who were both trained in Canon law and who help people do their annulment applications. So if that is the route you go, there is hope if you do it the right way.
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Just bear in mind that any grounds for annulment are things which apply prior to the marriage. Nothing that happens after you are married are grounds for annulment. They may help support some grounds prior to marriage but in and of themselves are not grounds for annulment.
 
Thank you again for the comments back. I have tried some of the tough love approaches, but we have a child together and have both agreed that remaining as civil as possible is best for him. So, we are kind of like friends at this point but no desire for more of a relationship than this. We have both went on dates with others and such and are both aware of that, and even that doesn’t seem to have caused a response.

The main issue I have is that she lacks the desire to continue and acts as if her frame of mind wasn’t all the way there whenever we got married. It is hard to know I guess exactly if someone “fully understood the level of commitment that they were making” at a younger age especially when looking back on it at an older age.

Hopefully it won’t go down this path as although I have no desire to remain married I know that morally I am obligated to remain so. Thus, I am willing to take as long as necessary to rebuild it, but I can’t do that alone and she must at least be willing to attempt it. But, I have also said that if at the end of our 90 day trial separation, which will be in a couple more months, then I will grant her the divorce that she wants if she still wants to. I feel that morally I can live with that position. She has also agreed to participate in the annulment process as she is catholic and I believe deep down wants to get back into a good position with God.
 
jfz178 said:
but 90% of requested annulments get approved in the US and the “grounds for annulment,” there are something like 32 of them, read like a horoscopes.
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I found that the US has more annulments than every other catholic country combined.
 
jfz178 said:
I will say I used some “levers” to get her to the table that were not all hearts and flowers. These sound unkind, but it was “tough love.”
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I’m an advocate for “tough love” too. I was inspired by a book written by marines who get through ‘hell week’, which is one of the toughest physical and mental challenges in the world. The ‘secret’ they said is that those who went into it thinking that they might quit, would. The ones who pass are the ones who go in determined to black out before they tap out. Marriage is like that really. So much of the secular world creates incentives for divorce, especially financial ones. I insisted on a pre-nuptial agreement because i know i would not be the one to initiate divorce (70% are initiated by women) and there should be no rewards for failure.
 
Rau said:
I insisted on a pre-nuptial agreement

What amount of resistance did you encounter?
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None, i explained that the laws of this country create incentives for divorce the longer we are married and i find that perverse. I get more resistance from other people who say “but that’s like planning to fail” but they speak from a position of ignorance and bias. Actually entering into a lifelong agreement that you know has a 43% probability of failure and not thinking about the potential for failure is planning to fail.
 
stupidisasstupiddoes said:
Actually entering into a lifelong agreement that you know has a 43% probability of failure and not thinking about the potential for failure is planning to fail.
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“Planning for divorce” also happens to be the precise definition of “invalid marriage” from the perspective of the Church.
 
alchemon said:
We became catholic in 2016, and we were asked if we wanted to “renew” our vows in the catholic church but we did not.
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@1ke covered the important points, but I just wanted to touch on this comment you made, @alchemon.

I’m not certain what you mean by “at the time [of the wedding] we were not catholic”. Some people will say that and mean, "I was never a member of the Catholic Church, but some will say it and mean, “I wasn’t a practicing Catholic.” The issue, as @1ke points out, is whether either (or both) of you had been baptized in the Catholic Church, not whether you were practicing or not. If one or both of you had been baptized in the Catholic Church prior to your marriage, then it’s quite likely that your marriage would not be seen as ‘valid’ from the perspective of the Church (since it did not follow the form of matrimony that the Church requires). Since your pastor and/or RCIA team didn’t insist on a ‘renewal of vows’ (i.e., a valid marriage ceremony), I suspect that this is not the case.

So, if neither of you had been baptized in the Catholic Church, there might be the question of whether you were baptized at the time of your wedding, but even that is immaterial to the question of the validity of the marriage. Whether you were both baptized non-Catholic Christians, or one of you was, or neither of you were, then your marriage is putatively valid. (If this is the case, then the “renewal of vows” that you were offered makes little sense, from a canonical perspective – your marriage, if valid, would become sacramental the moment you both were baptized, whether that happened in the past or in 2016).

So, most likely, the fact that there was not a “renewal of vows” probably has no bearing in this situation.

I’ll keep you and your wife in my prayers!
 
Possibly one of the most stupid things I’ve ever read: “The very contemplation of divorce at the outset of a marriage creates an “escape hatch” and could well imply something less than a total commitment.” As i said, anyone entering into a commitment that has a 43% failure rate and doesn’t consider the possibility of failure is simply negligent.
 
My situation has taught me that marriage is a contract between two individuals, and you may think that you know the other individual - but you really only know yourself, and the existence of the contract can be easily broken by either party. I don’t think that signing a prenuptial agreement is “planning for divorce”. It is more akin to buying insurance. No one plans to lose their house in a fire, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t wise to plan for that’s contingency.

On the other hand, having a potential spouse who has reservations with signing one shouldn’t be a major red flag. Most people still buy into the “love conquers all”, but regardless of how well you think you know someone else - they can and definitely will change. As long as you are willing to potentially risk half of the stuff that you have worked for, then no problem (ie if prior to marriage if the relationship is still worth risking that).

But, also: you are the only person on earth who is truly looking out for your own best interests, so you do have to consider that aspect.
 
Technically true, but I found out that the reality is the grounds are so generic that stuff that happens after the marriage can be used as stand-alone “smoking gun” evidence of what was going on before the marriage. Some examples:
  • You or your spouse intended to marry someone who either possessed or did not possess a certain quality, e.g., social status, marital status, education, religious conviction, freedom from disease, or arrest record. That quality must have been directly and principally intended. (Does any spouse turn out to have all the qualities you thought they would?)
  • You or your spouse was intentionally deceived about the presence or absence of a quality in the other. The reason for this deception was to obtain consent to marriage. (Who doesn’t hold back some of their worst qualities, especially if we are not asked and it doesn’t come up, fearing we will run the other person off?)
  • You or your spouse married intending, either explicitly or implicitly, not to create a permanent relationship, retaining an option to divorce. (Well if one side is filing for divorce, that’s pretty much a given. If you truly believe the relationship is permanent, you don’t change the philosophy when the going gets tough. The Church doesn’t say “permanent with the following exceptions …” Permanent is permanent.)
  • You or your spouse attached a future condition to your decision to marry, e.g., you will complete your education, your income will be at a certain level, you will remain in this area. (Well who doesn’t do this? Those kinds of expectations go into every marriage and inevitably some are not met perfectly. There is long-running thread here “Soupe Standards” where some young lady has a list of like 90 things she wants in a spouse. If she ever gets married, things go bad and she wants an annulment, all she has to do is print out that thread and attach it to her petition.)
Those are just a few examples. There are more. And I found out that the arguments I just made above are accepted by tribunals if they written up well. Also, if that doesn’t work, you can appeal to the Vatican. It cost $1,000, but Rome approves some annulments the local tribunals turn down.
 
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