Questions on Ecumenism

[TNT]

**…
Let me ask a question of those who self-identify as traditionalists: when it comes to ecumenism, what ARE you willing to compromise on, for the salvation of souls? I don’t mean doctrine or dogma, there can obviously be no compromise on that, but what are you willing to compromise on? **

No more swords n torch fires…jist Bowie knives on the first Round.
http://www.knifeoutlet.com/shop/products/mapac.jpg

Now, I ask you. What will the non-catholics be willing to “compromise on”, or better yet, what have they compomised on in say, the last 40yrs of Conciliar Church Groveling…err Ecumenism?
(The Buddhists dropping 6 of their 1287 gods notwithstanding.)

 

[paramedicgirl]

No more swords n torch fires…jist Bowie knives on the first round.

Now, I ask you. What will the non-catholics be willing to “compromise on”, or better yet, what have they compomised on in say, the last 40yrs of Conciliar Church Groveling…err I mean Ecumenism?

 

[TNT]

That’s all a bit vague isn’t it?

… Does that line up with your opinion?

Buttin in here:
Non vague stuff to follow:
There is no salvation outside the church. (If there is such a thing as salvation.)
As much as I love n adore my nieces n nephews who are not catholic, and have no interest in becoming one, they are not in the way of salvation. All have been Trinitarian baptized. All express Catholic heresy in their beliefs.
However, if they are by some enigma invincibly ignorant, such ignorance does NOT condemn them any more than it will save them.
Only Universalism will actually be savin them in their current condition.

BTW:
What, prey tell is one invincible against? God, the HS, r jist me.

 

[palmas85]

That’s all a bit vague isn’t it?

And you would consider? How does the Church consider it?

Again, how does the Church interpret that verse? Be careful of cherry-picking one verse of Scripture to support your argument, what ever it is.

Oh? They seem? What does the Church say about how the possibility of their salvation seems? Does that line up with your opinion?

As far as I know the church interprets it the same way I do. I believe, if I’m not mistaken they consider it the same way I do. And as far as I know, the church feels about their salvation the same way that I do. At least, I have never heard them say anything much different.

The Church states clearly that it is the one true church. It says other religions** MAY** have truth and MAY offer a way to salvation. It does not say anywhere that they positively offer a path to salvation. It says that it may be possible.

If the Church does say that these other faiths can definitely lead one on a path to salvation and eternal life, please point it out to me as I have missed that particular part.

I don’t cherry pick verses. Christ was fairly specific in what He taught. He did not teach believe what you want. He did not say take My words and use them in any fashion to construct any faith you desire. He did not say believe in any God or Gods that you choose to believe in. He never said those things.

At least if He did I am unaware of it.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Originally Posted by BobP123: And where exactly did Trent fail?

Protestantism is still around, despite the efforts of the Council Fathers at Trent, who not only invited the Protestants to observe, but also to come and participate by raising topics for discussion and participating in debate.

The fact that Protestants still exist doesn’t mean Trent failed, any more than the fact that some souls go to hell means that Jesus failed.

The primary goal of Trent was to explain the Catholic faith and condemn the false doctrines of the heretics. It did that with great clarity, and brought new vigor to the Church. As such, it was a success.

 

[bear06]

I see no need to compromise at all with those who adhere to heretical and anti Catholic beliefs. hey left. They should come home where they belong. We should not make Catholicism more comfortable for them or easier for them to adhere to. Catholicism is the true faith and they need to recognize and accept that fact.

Again, I don’t see the need to “compromise” either. It’s not about giving up the Faith. It’s about finding what we have in common to “hook” them and it’s about not “sticking it to them” when we don’t have to. It’s called baby steps. You don’t start teaching grammar to a one year old who doesn’t speak the language.

Look, this is not some new theory. If you look at Fulton Sheen’s teachings on the Mary and the Moslems, he says that the missionaries will take their belief on Mary and use it to bring them to the Church. Like it or not, we do have common beliefs with our “separated bretheren”, the Moslems, etc. that we can use to bring them to full Communion.

The debate isn’t whether or not our Church is the One, True, Church necessary for salvation. It is. That said, the debate seems to be what is the best way to get them there.

 

[bear06]

Well, I do teach catechism and have for about five years. Last session, I had to tell one of the teachers in our group session that the Mass was a sacrifice, not just a meal. I made sure I addressed the whole group, so as not to single out any adults who might be poorly educated in their faith (and teaching little children).

I have been asked by some adults to teach RCIA, but we don’t have any adult converts in our parish, and haven’t for years.

This is great but I don’t think we should limit ourselves to the ones who are actively seeking the Church. I think we should also try and get those into the Church that are not actively seeking and then maybe your adult converts will show!

 

[paramedicgirl]

This is great but I don’t think we should limit ourselves to the ones who are actively seeking the Church. I think we should also try and get those into the Church that are not actively seeking and then maybe your adult converts will show!

Yes, I do that via my blog. I routinely get emails from people who have found it to be a great help to them. And every one at work thinks I’m wayyyy too religious. So far, none of them have converted, but none of them swear around me.

 

[bear06]

Yes, I do that via my blog. I routinely get emails from people who have found it to be a great help to them. And every one at work thinks I’m wayyyy too religious. So far, none of them have converted, but none of them swear around me.

That’s great. I also think that those who pray with the protestants are doing a great job. I’ve seen many conversions that way too. As my point has always been, there are many things that one can do that do not deny doctrine in the least.

 

[paramedicgirl]

That’s great. I also think that those who pray with the protestants are doing a great job. I’ve seen many conversions that way too. As my point has always been, there are many things that one can do that do not deny doctrine in the least.

When you pray with the protestants, do you make the sign of the cross? Or do you omit it, so as not to offend them? Do you pray the Hail Mary, or ask for the intercession of the saints? Do you pray for the souls in Purgatory? Do you pray for the intentions of the Holy Father?

All of these are stumbling blocks for Protestants, and if ecumenical-minded Catholics make these concessions so as not to scare away the Protestants in an ecumenical prayer service, they are watering down our faith.

 

[Rykell]

All of these are stumbling blocks for Protestants, and if ecumenical-minded Catholics make these concessions so as not to scare away the Protestants in an ecumenical prayer service, they are watering down our faith.

I hardly think omitting these prayers is a concession to scare away those of other faiths, Paramedicgirl. You customarily stretch your point beyond a reasonable conclusion and give it a label (watering down our faith) that nobody ever intends. I have been to totally Catholic prayer vigils and services that do not specifically pray for the intention of the Holy Father or the souls in purgatory.

When people of other faiths gather for prayer, the common ground and specific intention is usually the focus of prayer, such as a Thanksgiving prayer service, prayer for world peace, our armed forces, and the tragedy of 911, where many interfaith christians met for that sole purpose. I would expect that those who gather for prayer after this week’s massacre would not veer off toward prayers for the souls in purgatory, either. Could I ask that these discussions be realistic?

 

[bear06]

When you pray with the protestants, do you make the sign of the cross? Or do you omit it, so as not to offend them? Do you pray the Hail Mary, or ask for the intercession of the saints? Do you pray for the souls in Purgatory? Do you pray for the intentions of the Holy Father?

I always make the sign of the cross. I don’t really know of any protestants who are offended by this. And no, I usually don’t say the Hail Mary or ask for the intercession of the saints when I pray with “new” protestants. Is this denying the Faith not to do so? Or am I simply substituting another prayer for that particular circumstance? Do you think it would be wrong to choose to say the Our Father instead of a Hail Mary? Do you see what I mean? There are many ways we can pray with protestants that don’t offend them and don’t deny the Faith.

All of these are stumbling blocks for Protestants, and if ecumenical-minded Catholics make these concessions so as not to scare away the Protestants in an ecumenical prayer service, they are watering down our faith.

I don’t think you’re correct here mainly based on my experience. While choosing what we have in common, you build a kinship that eventually allows you to explain what we don’t have in common and removes the objections to them via education.

I once met a man in the pro-life movement that hated everything about Catholics and I dare say that he didn’t care to much for us. I think he was probably related to Jack Chick. As we focused on our common goals and what we had in common, he basically melted. The last time I saw him, he was kneeling in the back row of my Church at my newly ordained friend’s first Mass. This is what our Church is trying to achieve (minus some wackos). Not one of us ever denied the Faith. If he asked, he got Catholic answers. If he didn’t ask about a subject, we’d leave him be but he’d always end up asking questions. It all started with an Our Father and the common goal to end abortion but turned into something more.

 

[palmas85]

Again, I don’t see the need to “compromise” either. It’s not about giving up the Faith. It’s about finding what we have in common to “hook” them and it’s about not “sticking it to them” when we don’t have to. It’s called baby steps. You don’t start teaching grammar to a one year old who doesn’t speak the language.

Look, this is not some new theory. If you look at Fulton Sheen’s teachings on the Mary and the Moslems, he says that the missionaries will take their belief on Mary and use it to bring them to the Church. Like it or not, we do have common beliefs with our “separated bretheren”, the Moslems, etc. that we can use to bring them to full Communion.

The debate isn’t whether or not our Church is the One, True, Church necessary for salvation. It is. That said, the debate seems to be what is the best way to get them there.

I agree. But what is the best way to get them there? Stop calling the Sacrifice of the Mass a Sacrifice and call it a meal as they do? Is it to stop or severely curtail numerous devotions to Mary and the Saints because they don’t accept belief in them? Is it to say our path is the best but your path is good and can work also?

We’ve done all of those things andthey haven’t worked. They haven’t worked because in the large scheme of things Protestant groups revile the faith, ridicule the faith, belittle the faith and don’t want to believe in it. They by and large see our concessions as proving their beliefs are correct and will just wait us out.

I say the best way to bring them back is to stand firm in the faith 100% pray for them and let them know that we are praying for them. I think that would be the most effective way of dealing with this problem. Not through subterfuge or misleading them, how was it one poster put it, hook them? Nah, stand firm. Eventually they will realize the errors they have committed and some will come home. Not all, but some.

So I’ll pose this question. Which is better, to be a Catholic in name only or a true committed Catholic? It seems that many people feel that one is just as good as the other these days.

And no, I am not saying that all Catholics are fully committed either.

i do wonder though how many recent converts from the Protestant sects still have difficulty with some basic Catholic beliefs? I know some do, I’m just wondering how many.

 

[mark_a]

How, in your opinion has post-conciliar ecumenism affected the Catholic Church? Does it seem that, to please other religions, there is pressure on Catholics to deny the past teachings of the Church? Has our Catholic faith been watered down to hide the Truths that the Church has constantly defended and upheld over the centuries?

We used to strive for conversions to the Catholic faith, but it seems now the focus has changed to love, rather than conversion, for our separated brethren. If conversion is not the goal of ecumenism, then what is? Are we to co-exist happily with non-Catholic religions and respect each other’s practices and faith? Is that the end goal?

It means sucking it up and reaching out, just as any parent would do, to people who hate the Catholic Church. To lovingly speak the truth in the face of hate, to acknowledge past mistakes, in the hope that truth wins out in each life.

 

[BobP123]

… They by and large see our concessions as proving their beliefs are correct and will just wait us out.

I say the best way to bring them back is to stand firm in the faith 100% pray for them and let them know that we are praying for them.

Same holds true for the Orthodox Christians who, no doubt, are watching the ongoing talks with Rome dealing with its own traditionalists with great fervor.

 

[PauloFreire2]

Ecumenism is beyond our reach. Man prefers tribes, and naturally segregates himself into them constantly.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I agree. But what is the best way to get them there? Stop calling the Sacrifice of the Mass a Sacrifice and call it a meal as they do? Is it to stop or severely curtail numerous devotions to Mary and the Saints because they don’t accept belief in them? Is it to say our path is the best but your path is good and can work also?

Oh, wait, these have already been done! Hasn’t really worked that well, has it?

We’ve done all of those things and they haven’t worked. They haven’t worked because in the large scheme of things Protestant groups revile the faith, ridicule the faith, belittle the faith and don’t want to believe in it. They by and large see our concessions as proving their beliefs are correct and will just wait us out.

Exactly! They want us to convert to their beliefs, and when Catholics downplay their own faith to accommodate other religions in the name of ecumenism, this is what happens.

I say the best way to bring them back is to stand firm in the faith 100% pray for them and let them know that we are praying for them. I think that would be the most effective way of dealing with this problem. Not through subterfuge or misleading them, how was it one poster put it, hook them? Nah, stand firm. Eventually they will realize the errors they have committed and some will come home. Not all, but some.

This is the way it used to be. Over forty years ago.

 

[bear06]

I agree. But what is the best way to get them there? Stop calling the Sacrifice of the Mass a Sacrifice and call it a meal as they do? Is it to stop or severely curtail numerous devotions to Mary and the Saints because they don’t accept belief in them? Is it to say our path is the best but your path is good and can work also?

And I agree that false ecumenism is bad.

We’ve done all of those things andthey haven’t worked. They haven’t worked because in the large scheme of things Protestant groups revile the faith, ridicule the faith, belittle the faith and don’t want to believe in it. They by and large see our concessions as proving their beliefs are correct and will just wait us out.

 

[bear06]

Exactly! They want us to convert to their beliefs, and when Catholics downplay their own faith to accommodate other religions in the name of ecumenism, this is what happens.

Sigh! I guess I’m not getting through. I don’t think that downplaying is the issue here. LIke I said, I’m going to keep on saying my Rosary in front of them, I’m just not going to insist that they must do it.

 

[rider]

It seems that most of you agree that we can contribute to ecumenism on a grassroots level by being the best Catholic that we can be, and lead by example…
We all have opportunities to evangelize, like when a JW comes to the door-turn the tables on them and invite them into our faith! There are always chances to talk to others about our faith and it is up to us how we approach that. Some of us will take the strong, direct aproach (Palmas) and some will be more subtle (Bear 06). What matters is that each of us is trying, as Christ said, to proclaim the gospel. We all have different personalities and what works for one may not work for another. As for myself, I am not willing to compromise my faith for fear of offending a non Catholic.