Questions on Protestant Salvation

  • Thread starter Thread starter aidanbradypop
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I disagree. I know, you’re shocked. 🙂 But what then of the man who hung next to Jesus on the cross? Recall what he said to Jesus. “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And Jesus replied, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise”.

This criminal did NOT say, Jesus I repent of all the sins I ever committed, please forgive me! All he said was “remember me” and bam, it was done. Because he acknowledged in his heart that Jesus was King and he knew in his heart he was a sinner.

That my friend, is why you need ONLY a repentant heart and faith in Jesus Christ. All the other Catholic regulations and rules are nothing but legalism. Good intent possibly, but legalism nonetheless.

Another thing, and I’m going to put it bluntly. The Catholic church does not hold all the answers. The Bible holds the answers and the Bible is the ONLY thing we should be looking to for complete truth. 🙂
God judges by the heart as scripture tells us-Jesus knew the thiefs heart-whether or not he genuinely cared, whether or not he was contrite or repentant. Talk’s cheap anyway. Had the thief been given the opportunity to live longer, more would’ve been expected from him, as per Luke 12:48 and the Parable of the Talents.
 
I disagree. I know, you’re shocked. 🙂 But what then of the man who hung next to Jesus on the cross? Recall what he said to Jesus. “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And Jesus replied, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise”.

This criminal did NOT say, Jesus I repent of all the sins I ever committed, please forgive me! All he said was “remember me” and bam, it was done. Because he acknowledged in his heart that Jesus was King and he knew in his heart he was a sinner.

That my friend, is why you need ONLY a repentant heart and faith in Jesus Christ. All the other Catholic regulations and rules are nothing but legalism. Good intent possibly, but legalism nonetheless.

Another thing, and I’m going to put it bluntly. The Catholic church does not hold all the answers. The Bible holds the answers and the Bible is the ONLY thing we should be looking to for complete truth. 🙂
On being forgiven sin…the church teaches you CAN be forgiven with a sincere act of faith asking for forgiveness with what we call full contrition…in that you are sorry for your sin not out of fear of hell or consequence…but because you offended such an awsome God. What we see with the theif…he acts out of full contrition acknowledging who and what he is and acknowledging his faith in christ. Also…he continued to hang and suffer on the cross! Offering this up in acceptence “we deserve our punishment”. This is important…It’s faith in action … it is a “work” . I suggest to you that this purification process needed to be done along with his faith in Christ.

Remember the story in the gospel when Christ talks about the end of the world. He will separate the sheep from the goats …those who did good works (you fed me, clothed me etc etc etc…) . The sheep say :“but when did we see you naked, hungry etc” . These individuals that this scripture passage says will inherit eternal life were doing good works (their hearts were in the right disposition for grace) . …they seemed not to even know they were doing them to Christ!

Faith is permitting God to love you, Works - help keep your heart in the right disposition and grace…sanctifying grace! is a share in Gods own blessed life and is a free gift (god wills “all men to be saved” ) and is the only way for anyone to enter heaven. Through works…we participate with grace.

Confession is simply an added bonus because it offers so many things to a human being that are necessary for healing. Act of faith and trust by talking about sins to a stranger, the graces for growth and healing given through the sacrament, council from a spiritual father, etc etc

Now… I wanna make mention about your thoughts on using the bible as our authoritative source. Cabo, you’re putting the “cart before the horse”.

Where did the bible come from ??? FROM THE CHURCH! It was the church that put the books that are within it together and protected it down through the centuries. So when we read the bible…we have to read it in the light of what the church teaches …IT’S THE CHURCHES BOOK! It was NEVER meant to trump the church! As a matter of fact…for quite some time…there WAS NO BOOK. It was the leaders of the church that reiterated and taught everything! Later when the book was put together by the church…most people couldint read! The church was STILL teaching !

Who did Christ give authority and charge to before He went to heaven ??? A book ??? NO NO NO. “Go therefore and teach ALL (that would take years and years) Nations and teaching them everything I have commanded you baptizing them in the name of the father, and the son and the holy spirit…and lo, I am WITH YOU ALWAYS …even until the END OF THE AGE” …this was to the apostles …the first leaders of the church and he makes mention of him being with them until the end of the age!..They kept passing their authority by laying on of hands which is depitced over and over in the new testament.
 
The reason why we have so many christian denomenations is because people think they can take the bible and interpret it how they wish and that by some holy spirit magic…they will come up with the same lessons their neighbors do. …we have hunderds of christian denomenations…it’s this type of thinking that caused so many divisions…and divison only comes from one source…the devil. It’s very prideful to consider we have all the answers and that we don’t need an authoritative force for guidence.
 
Off topic, but just for clarity:
Lutherans **do not reject everything the Catholic Church stands for.
Lutherans
do **believe in confession to a priest/pastor/ confessor.
Lutherans reject the Calvinist derivative known as OSAS.

Carry on,
Jon
Thanks for posting Jon!

My friend is a member of the LCMC branch. Much different that LCMS. They are not a confessional lutheran church and a very low church as well. They reject the ELCA, LCMS and us Catholics as well. He does believe in OSAS. I am not making a claim that all Lutherans do, but this one does. Sorry if I caused a misunderstanding. Peace be with you!
 
I disagree. I know, you’re shocked. 🙂 But what then of the man who hung next to Jesus on the cross? Recall what he said to Jesus. “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And Jesus replied, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise”.

This criminal did NOT say, Jesus I repent of all the sins I ever committed, please forgive me! All he said was “remember me” and bam, it was done. Because he acknowledged in his heart that Jesus was King and he knew in his heart he was a sinner.

That my friend, is why you need ONLY a repentant heart and faith in Jesus Christ. All the other Catholic regulations and rules are nothing but legalism. Good intent possibly, but legalism nonetheless.

Another thing, and I’m going to put it bluntly. The Catholic church does not hold all the answers. The Bible holds the answers and the Bible is the ONLY thing we should be looking to for complete truth. 🙂
Why do you think the Good Thief performed no works?
  1. He made a public proclamation of his belief that Jesus was the Christ.
  2. He publicly admonished another sinner (when he rebuked the other thief)
  3. He publicly acknowledged his sins to Christ and the justness of his punishment.
  4. He suffered grave penance for his sins.
  5. The Good Thief comforted Our Lord while He was hanging on the cross.
Seems to me that he made several public works. And note, Jesus told him that he would be in paradise (NOT Heaven). Jesus didn’t go to Heaven that day. Jesus went to Purgatory and Abraham’s Bosom, to the spirits in “prison” as Peter tells us. THAT is where the Good Thief went, so he still had some time in Purgatory to fulfill.
 
Why do you think the Good Thief performed no works?
  1. He made a public proclamation of his belief that Jesus was the Christ.
  2. He publicly admonished another sinner (when he rebuked the other thief)
  3. He publicly acknowledged his sins to Christ and the justness of his punishment.
  4. He suffered grave penance for his sins.
  5. The Good Thief comforted Our Lord while He was hanging on the cross.
Seems to me that he made several public works. And note, Jesus told him that he would be in paradise (NOT Heaven). Jesus didn’t go to Heaven that day. Jesus went to Purgatory and Abraham’s Bosom, to the spirits in “prison” as Peter tells us. THAT is where the Good Thief went, so he still had some time in Purgatory to fulfill.
Very nicely stated ZZ!
 
Absolutely! We are judged by our actions but we are SAVED by our faith in Christ. And faith to me means believing and following Him. You do not need good works to get into heaven but truth faith WILL produce good works in you. 🙂 Remember we get our reward in heaven. I believe that the works we do on earth are what will produce our reward in heaven. But getting into heaven is not based on works. Otherwise we are no different than any other religion trying to earn our salvation. Wow, that’s a mouthful. :ehh:
  1. Does God ever violate or negate our free will?
  2. Do you have a true faith?
  3. Are you capable of refusing to do the following actions?
Refuse to take care of your family?
Ignore the poor?
Refuse to take up your cross daily?
Forgive others?
Pray?
Fast?
Listen to the Apostles?
Deny Christ to others?
Keep the 10 Commandments?
 
Another thing, and I’m going to put it bluntly. The Catholic church does not hold all the answers. The Bible holds the answers and the Bible is the ONLY thing we should be looking to for complete truth. 🙂
What does the Bible say is the foundation and pillar of the truth?

How are we as Christians to know how to behave?

Who decided that the Bible is the word of God? Who decided what books belong in the Bible, and which ones do not?
 
Thanks for posting Jon!

My friend is a member of the LCMC branch. Much different that LCMS. They are not a confessional lutheran church and a very low church as well. They reject the ELCA, LCMS and us Catholics as well. He does believe in OSAS. I am not making a claim that all Lutherans do, but this one does. Sorry if I caused a misunderstanding. Peace be with you!
No misunderstanding at all, except for your friend. One cannot claim to be Lutheran and accept perseverence of the saints, or OSAS. It is contrary to the confessions, and frankly, to scripture.

From their website:
We believe, teach, and accept the Unaltered Augsburg Confession and the Small Catechism as true witnesses to the Word of God, normative for our teaching and practice. We acknowledge that we are one in faith and doctrine with all churches that likewise accept the teachings of the Unaltered Augsburg Confession.

We believe, teach, and confess the other confessional writings in the Book of Concord namely, the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, the Smalcald Articles, the Treatise, the Large Catechism, and the Formula of Concord, as further valid expositions of the Holy Scriptures.
I suspect your friend is poorly catechized.

Jon
 
The Bible holds the answers and the Bible is the ONLY thing we should be looking to for complete truth. 🙂
Wrong 🙂

This is a deification of the Sacred Scriptures, which is the word of God, but one with Sacred Tradition.

The Only place where we find complete truth is in our Lord Jesus Christ, the incarnate Word of God.

And the Word of God told his apostles that He had many, many more things that He had to tell us, but that we weren’t ready to bear them, so the Holy Spirit would have the task of revealing them things in due time. Which is why the Lord also added: “Those who hear you, hear me. Those who reject you, reject me.”

I invite you to learn more about how the canon of the Sacred Scripture was formed, and about how it was the Church (that is, the Catholic Church) which for centuries put together the books of the Old Testament and of the New Testament. Had it been done today, the Holy Bible you hold in your hands would have said (C) Catholic Church. All the so-called “reformers” did was tear out some pages from the Old Testament.
That my friend, is why you need ONLY a repentant heart and faith in Jesus Christ. All the other Catholic regulations and rules are nothing but legalism. Good intent possibly, but legalism nonetheless.
And where did you receive this teaching?

Because remember what St. Paul said: “stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you …] to encourage others with sound doctrine and refuse those who oppose it”. This teaching of yours is not in accordance with Sacred Scripture. It is also not in accordance with what the Fathers of the Church have written. So I repeat my question: where does this teaching, this new gospel come from?

Consider the following, and let’s see if you can guess the date in which it was written:
Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church.
From this previously-existing and most true Church, it is very clear that these later heresies, and others which have come into being since then, are counterfeit and novel inventions.
This was written by Clement of Rome, disciple of Peter and his successor as bishop, around the year 90 AD. However, its timeless truths still apply 19 centuries later.

In fact, it is rather sad that someone who is profoundly in love with Christ and probably willing do do good works and sacrifices for the love of God is putting such a great trust in the man-made doctrines that have shaped what is lousily called “protestantism”.

You are not alone in this - others have given us (and personally to me) evidence based on their doctrines and supported by the Scriptures that there is no Holy Spirit, that Christ is neither God, nor divine, but merely a creature or merely a man, that baptism is not necessary, et cetera. All of this is a lie, in fact, it is the mock gospel that the father of lies has slowly spread ever since the true gospel has been upheld and protected by Holy Church.

Don’t get me wrong: it is true that the first step is to turn towards Christ, for “a man cannot have two masters”. In fact Augustine, Bishop of Hippo and Doctor of the Church, who wrote extensively about the Catholic Church and its relationship to heretics, also wrote the notorious remark: “love, and do what you will” - for in love, or rather, under grace, the works of Christ will be done. But the good works will require sacrifice, and grace can be lost. It’s in the Scriptures.

The blatant error is to say that this suffices to be saved. And it’s a truly ridiculous error. The only thing that stops you from learning why it is so and acknowledging it as such is that it requires you to step out of your comfort zone, to acknowledge that whatever protestant doctrine you follow is partially erroneous, and to acknowledge that the despicable Catholic Church was, after all, right. It is not easy. But we ought to follow not what we like, not what others have told us to be truthful, but the actual gospel of Jesus Christ. This requires to learn what the Sacred Scripture teaches, to learn what the Church Fathers have written, to learn what the Catholic Church is and to learn how the Catholic Church dismisses the heresies that have appeared from the first decades after Pentecost until the “reform” until this very day.

Or you can just ignore me and keep listening to whoever is teaching you the man-made ideas of “faith alone” and “scripture alone”. and presume that all it takes for you to be a saint and be like Christ or as perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect is to say that you accept the Lord as your savior.
 
I want to throw my two cents in as a former protestant. I know many protestants who, Though they know what the Catholic church teaches, do not believe it. And sincerly believe faith alone saves. I think there is a difference between rejecting the Catholic truth (meaning you know it is true), and believing that it is not true. Just because someone has heard the truth and determines it’s not the truth, doesn’t mean they have rejected it. I know protestants who truely love Jesus and can’t wait until they can live with him for eternity. Also, they do his will Feeding the poor and such, out of love for him. I can’t imagine they will be held accountable for "rejecting’ the truth. When, if they did realize it was the truth, they would have imbraced it. They will, however, probably spend a long “time” in purgatory until they do accept it. That is why I give my indulgences ,often times, to the protesrtants in purgatory. As I believe there are many, and they have no one to pray for them.
I read once that the confessional is the only way ,besides perfect contrition, that we know of to get our sins forgiven. It went on to say that God is not bound to the sacrament he instituted. He can forgive whom ever he wants, for any reason.
The New Testament makes no mention of Purgatory. After Jesus died on the cross we have no reason to believe there is any place other than Heaven or Hell left to go to. Also, the truth is God’s Word. Why does everyone keep referring to Catholic teaching as the real truth? :confused: I would be naive to think that everything the Protestant churches taught was Biblical. The Bible is the only solid truth we have and anything else is doctrine by which Priests and Pastors alike can make mistakes in teaching.
 
The New Testament makes no mention of Purgatory. After Jesus died on the cross we have no reason to believe there is any place other than Heaven or Hell left to go to.
Simply not true.
  1. Jesus taught about Abraham’s Bosom in His parable of Lazarus.
  2. Peter taught about Jesus, while He was dead, went to the spirits in “prison” to free them.
  3. Revelation tells us that Death and Hades will be thrown into hell at the Final Judgment.
  4. Jesus taught us that there is forgiveness of sins in this age, and in the next age (i.e. Purgatory for venial/non-mortal sins).
  5. Paul taught that after death, those works that were of straw and hay would be burned away as if through fire, but we would still be saved.
In the end, at the Final Judgment, Purgatory will be destroyed because it will be of no more use as everyone there will be released and enter into Heaven.
 
Wrong 🙂

This is a deification of the Sacred Scriptures, which is the word of God, but one with Sacred Tradition.

The Only place where we find complete truth is in our Lord Jesus Christ, the incarnate Word of God.

And the Word of God told his apostles that He had many, many more things that He had to tell us, but that we weren’t ready to bear them, so the Holy Spirit would have the task of revealing them things in due time. Which is why the Lord also added: “Those who hear you, hear me. Those who reject you, reject me.”

I invite you to learn more about how the canon of the Sacred Scripture was formed, and about how it was the Church (that is, the Catholic Church) which for centuries put together the books of the Old Testament and of the New Testament. Had it been done today, the Holy Bible you hold in your hands would have said (C) Catholic Church. All the so-called “reformers” did was tear out some pages from the Old Testament.

And where did you receive this teaching?

Because remember what St. Paul said: “stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you …] to encourage others with sound doctrine and refuse those who oppose it”. This teaching of yours is not in accordance with Sacred Scripture. It is also not in accordance with what the Fathers of the Church have written. So I repeat my question: where does this teaching, this new gospel come from?

Consider the following, and let’s see if you can guess the date in which it was written:

This was written by Clement of Rome, disciple of Peter and his successor as bishop, around the year 90 AD. However, its timeless truths still apply 19 centuries later.

In fact, it is rather sad that someone who is profoundly in love with Christ and probably willing do do good works and sacrifices for the love of God is putting such a great trust in the man-made doctrines that have shaped what is lousily called “protestantism”.

You are not alone in this - others have given us (and personally to me) evidence based on their doctrines and supported by the Scriptures that there is no Holy Spirit, that Christ is neither God, nor divine, but merely a creature or merely a man, that baptism is not necessary, et cetera. All of this is a lie, in fact, it is the mock gospel that the father of lies has slowly spread ever since the true gospel has been upheld and protected by Holy Church.

Don’t get me wrong: it is true that the first step is to turn towards Christ, for “a man cannot have two masters”. In fact Augustine, Bishop of Hippo and Doctor of the Church, who wrote extensively about the Catholic Church and its relationship to heretics, also wrote the notorious remark: “love, and do what you will” - for in love, or rather, under grace, the works of Christ will be done. But the good works will require sacrifice, and grace can be lost. It’s in the Scriptures.

The blatant error is to say that this suffices to be saved. And it’s a truly ridiculous error. The only thing that stops you from learning why it is so and acknowledging it as such is that it requires you to step out of your comfort zone, to acknowledge that whatever protestant doctrine you follow is partially erroneous, and to acknowledge that the despicable Catholic Church was, after all, right. It is not easy. But we ought to follow not what we like, not what others have told us to be truthful, but the actual gospel of Jesus Christ. This requires to learn what the Sacred Scripture teaches, to learn what the Church Fathers have written, to learn what the Catholic Church is and to learn how the Catholic Church dismisses the heresies that have appeared from the first decades after Pentecost until the “reform” until this very day.

Or you can just ignore me and keep listening to whoever is teaching you the man-made ideas of “faith alone” and “scripture alone”. and presume that all it takes for you to be a saint and be like Christ or as perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect is to say that you accept the Lord as your savior.
Really. :tsktsk: Isn’t that why your ancient “holy ones” (lol) burned the Protestants at the stake? For being heretics? Yep, I’d love to follow that teaching. I’m not even going to respond to your entire degrading post because I take serious offense at your arrogance. But for scriptures sake…the Bible is what teaches me. I actually read it. Over and over. 🙂 And my “man-made ideas” come from the Apostle Paul. I don’t back my “ideas” up with what my church says because I don’t agree with them on everything. I am not a brainwashed robot. I read the Bible and test what people say to it’s teachings and if they don’t line up, I don’t accept the teachings. I am not perfect and I don’t know everything but I am trying to learn. If I sound angry it’s because I am. Shame on you for speaking to someone who is trying to understand different doctrine in the hopes of finding unity. You remind me of the Pharisees that Jesus rebuked for being pious. Perhaps you should spend time on your knees with Jesus and listen to the Holy Spirit regarding these matters.
 
No misunderstanding at all, except for your friend. One cannot claim to be Lutheran and accept perseverence of the saints, or OSAS. It is contrary to the confessions, and frankly, to scripture.

From their website:

I suspect your friend is poorly catechized.

Jon
JonNC ----

What does Lutheran Church teach on Eucharist ?

1.) Valid … based upon Luther being a Catholic priest, and thus he able to pass/ confer a valid priesthood to his disciples ?
2). That it’s a true sacrament, and necessary for us .? …elsewise, we have “no life in us”
 
Simply not true.
  1. Jesus taught about Abraham’s Bosom in His parable of Lazarus.
  2. Peter taught about Jesus, while He was dead, went to the spirits in “prison” to free them.
  3. Revelation tells us that Death and Hades will be thrown into hell at the Final Judgment.
  4. Jesus taught us that there is forgiveness of sins in this age, and in the next age (i.e. Purgatory for venial/non-mortal sins).
  5. Paul taught that after death, those works that were of straw and hay would be burned away as if through fire, but we would still be saved.
In the end, at the Final Judgment, Purgatory will be destroyed because it will be of no more use as everyone there will be released and enter into Heaven.
  1. Jesus hadn’t died on the cross yet (and fulfilled the law) and the people he was speaking to were Jews, still under the law. So until he died on the cross, there may have been a Purgatory, or the souls may have gone to a hell-like place where Jesus went after he died and got the keys. 🙂
  2. I addressed that above.
    3.Revelations can be very difficult to interpret but I believe that means that Death will be no more and as for Hades…honestly I’m not quite sure what its referring to. I know that the Bible sometimes refers to Hell and other times to the Lake of fire…etc. That still doesn’t mean it is Purgatory.
  3. Jesus had not died yet so he was probably referring to the forgiveness of those before his death and the age after his death.
  4. I LOVE this scripture. Paul says that the works we do here on earth that are of no eternal value- meaning, those we do out of selfish motive, pride, etc. would be tested when we reach the judgement seat. The works that were done in our flesh (sinfulness), would be burned up…essentially being worthless. I’m not sure how you get purgatory from that scripture. 😉 But it also brings an excellent point to the whole works vs. faith debate. 😃
 
Hey Cabo!

hope all is well friend. I posted in response to one of your earlier posts. It’s posts #42 and 43.

Michael
 
on purgatory :

In Matthew 5:26 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of liberation only after expiation. “Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.” Now we know that no last penny needs to be paid in Heaven and from Hell there is no liberation at all; hence the reference must apply to a third place.

Matthew 12:32 says, “And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

The same person as in the previously mentioned verse, Matthew, speaks of sin against the Holy Spirit. The implication is that some sins can be forgiven in the world to come. But not in Hell from which there is no liberation; nor in Heaven because nothing imperfect can enter it as we see in the next part. Any remission of sin cannot occur in either of these places because they are
a final destination unlike purgatory.

A good page giving biblical evidence for purgatory :

aboutcatholics.com/beliefs/where-is-purgatory-in-the-bible/
 
Hey Cabo!

hope all is well friend. I posted in response to one of your earlier posts. It’s posts #42 and 43.

Michael
Ugh…It’s not. Lol I’m being bombarded from all sides and I only have two hands and one brain to try and respond to everything. Is there a single other Protestant on this entire website that could give me a hand? 😉 But seriously, I am tired and I am discouraged with this never ending debate.

I don’t have any reason to change what I know is true because:
I have found freedom, love, life, and forgiveness in Jesus. I know Him personally and speak with Him daily. I read his Word and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal it to me. I go to church every Sunday at an Assembly of God (Pentecostal) Church. I repent of my sins daily. I made a public declaration of faith by being baptized when I was a teenager. I have been through a lot in my 27 years of life and Jesus has been with me every step of the way protecting me from a lot and walking with me through the things that did happen. My life, purpose, and allegiance are His. I could never think that somehow I am not fully saved or that I am in danger of being in purgatory for a long time (as some have suggested) because I don’t agree with the way Catholics have interpreted scripture. I know who my savior is and I know what the Bible says. I do not need to be a Catholic nor do I need to know all of their teachings in order to know Jesus. When we get to Heaven, I plan on spending at least 10,000 years just hugging Him and thanking Him. 😉

I’m not sure why I’m writing all this… lol…I just wrote an entire paragraph defending my own personal salvation. But I feel like this has all been swirling in my head now for 2 days and I’m tired. I wish it was possible to sit down in a group and discuss these things because it could be done much more efficiently.

I think I will stop writing on here for a while because it’s going no where and I cannot get to everyone’s responses. Not to mention I don’t have all the answers! I just know what I believe. However, many of the answers to my Protestant views can be found in Hebrews. 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top